Rate my pit!

[sagemoon]

I have 3 wifi matches for you to rate it off of... but yeah...

Its against azen.. . yes THE azen. So no questions about that..


Wifi matches
Sagemoon (Pit) vs Azen (lucario) 1.1
Sagemoon (light blue pit) vs Azen (red pit) 1.3
Sagemoon (light blue pit) vs Azen (red pit) 1.4

The match that wasnt recorded was pit vs ike with azen winning as ike. Oh and sorry about the recording difficulties of 1.1 and 1.4 T_T

 

[drag0nfeather]

please move this response to the other thread and i'll move mine to the other one also. Keep in mind this was a WIFI match so things like aiming arrows and spot dodging is hard. With wifi it adds like a half second delay so its harder to play more reactive, and focuses more on a proactive style.

The glide attack has really good vertical knockback so I tend to try to hit opponents with it, or if they try to attack i'll just goto a dif part of the stage and just glide cancel. I mean why not? theres no landing lag.

dair has more range than pits uair. Therefor it has more priority when spaced right. I dont use it vs other chars too much, mainly pit, mk and gw.

I'll upload nonwifi matches as soon as i can get them recorded if that will help you see what i mean.

Yes the ledge hop nair was a mistake, I meant to just jump then nair because it has no ending lag, only landing lag. Back air has no landing lag and fairly decent range and knockback, making it a good approach in a pit ditto. vs other characters i often arrow to forward tilt instead. And the back airs you were talking about hit all the way down and if the opponent was close enough i would foward smash right out of it.

Well, since you say there was lag, that changes a lot.

I've only had 1 in 10 or so chances of my Dair intercepting my opponent before he intercepts me when they're juggling me. The Dair's hitbox doesn't stay out long so your timing would have to be uncanny. For example, a Pit intercept-juggling another Pit with an Uair. The Uair's hitbox is wide and stays out a long time. The slightest hint of your char's hitbox and you're caught inside.

I'd like to commend you if you can reliably juggle-intercept with the Dair. (Note the difference between juggle-intercepting and intercept-juggling. The former means stopping yourself from being juggled and vice-versa.) You use the Dair to juggle-intercept MK? My friend would be to the left or right of me as I came down and Uair me repeatedly making it useless. If I were G&W, I'd be spamming my Uair's windblow to force you to come at a side angle so I could nail you with my turtle or... cardboard box?

Hmm, presuming that the Bair's hitbox will stay out long enough but end just before you land and connecting with a forward smash if the Bair didn't knock them back? I don't trust the Bair's hitbox to last long and also if you DO hit them with the last part of it, they'll only recoil slightly and it seems you're firing off these Bairs at the peak of your jump which means if they are spamming that C-stick for retaliation, which would make the momentary stun of the weak semi-sex-kick pointless, they'd probably get it.

I never said the glide attack was bad. I recommended it.

 

[sagemoon]

oh sorry i misread about the glide attack then. And yes metaknight is extremely light so I use down air when hes at high percents to juggle intercept. Juggle intercepting not as hard to time and space as it seems. If you know the delay of your attack, and the delay of theirs, know how high they can jump (either short hop or tall hop) and just use a little bit of foresight and you can predict exactly where they are gonna be at what time. You can always bail. Yeah how i worded that makes it seem a lot more complicated than it is lol. So long as you can outrange your opponents move, the advantage is on your side (you also have the unpredictability of fast falling at any time throwing THEIR timing off)

With gw, I normally approach falling from the side and if they jump, i jump as well and then punish their back air or w/e with the down air. But his u-air can get annoying. I actually didnt realise it pushed me up the first few times i played him and im like "wtf whenever i play gw my character randomly freaks out and isnt where he is supposed to be "

If you watch the lucario match you notice i dont use the bair as much for an approach because it would easily be outprioritized by his freaking insane range. And the weak sex kick is what makes the Bair so effective. since it doesnt push the opponent back, you follow up with a forward smash after you hit them. If they put up their shield, than the forward smash pushes them back far enough for you not to get punished.

 

[drag0nfeather]

Edit: Re: post above. Ooh, fast-falling for juggle-intercepting mind-games. Nice! Problem is when your opponent is unpredictable with their intercept-juggles and come up to meet you before or after you attempt to juggle-intercept them.

Re: the rest of the post above. No comment.

Here's another actual play-by-play where I state the minutes and seconds where I spot this stuff. Sagemoon (light blue pit) vs Azen (red pit) 1.4 is the round. Man, YouTube's lack of pinpoint playback tracker dot is a PAIN. IMPORTANT: All the advice I give is with the disclaimer, 'if it weren't laggy/but you were probably affected by the lag/etc.'.

0:05-0:10 - You repeatedly walk into his arrows when you had a good position to start from in the safe zone.
0:13 - You perform a forward tilt as he glides over you. I hate the forward tilt. I don't think it's hitbox is very long in the upper right diagonal so it was a bit out of place.
0:16 - You do it again.
0:17 - Forward smash as he shield rolls towards you and then he spot-dodges (seemingly impossible with the lag present?) and retaliates with a quick swipe-slash down-smash.
0:26-0:27 - A forward-smash would've been more favorable. Whatever.
0:30-0:31 - QED for my Uair intercept-juggle > Dair juggle-intercept statement.
0:36 - You're lucky he wasn't a bit further behind you than that. Your forward smash would've missed and he would've retaliated. Lucky catch.
0:49 - Wow, you really trust your Dair juggle-intercept.
0:53 - Grab?
0:55-0:56 - Nice proof of point.
0:58-1:00 - An Uair would've fit better. I do it very often after my down-throws. It works perfectly instead of an up-smash. My other friend got used to air-dodging straight after though. But, so've I to my friend's MK.
1:03-1:04 - ANOTHER f-tilt! He air-dodges (mindread) and retaliates with a forward smash.
1:12 - I found that when doing a semi-circle arrow loop, you can hit opponents in that position. It's helped me a lot. Beyond that, you move back a bit, jump and get the better angle.
1:15 - QED again for my belief in the impotency of the Bair in close-quarters Pit combat (CQC). He easily shields and retaliates before you land. You used your Bair at the peak of your jump again. The long-lasting hitbox didn't affect him, but perhaps that can be attributed to a 'Link's B-Up (in Melee) while on the ground' affect. You can only be hit by Link's B-Up once in Melee when he performs it on the ground.
1:41 - A full-jump Bair approach. Predictable made even more predictable since you jumped hella high which makes it obvious you'll only be able to and WILL BE gambling a Bair to hit him when you've fallen a little bit. He easily metapwns you with a roll and a smack.
1:54-1:55 - Forward tilt failure.
2:09-2:11 - In that position, I'd immediately move into spam forward-smash mode. Lag makes this iffy if not impossible. Down-smash is good if you hazarded a mindread that he would roll behind you.
2:13 - Forward tilt. It's slow start up. He shielded early, he would've expected a quick Forward-smash instead of a Forward-tilt so possibly, you could've connected if he didn't roll away.
2:14 - Needs more DI? I guess you were just unlucky but it also seems bad spacing.
2:15 - What can I say? It didn't work.
2:19 - How about a shield?
2:22 - Azen is good at spacing.
2:31 - I would've used a forward-smash. You should've at least shielded.
2:34 - Bad idea.
2:40 - I look at that as a gamble but it's your playstyle.
2:42-2:43 - He read your mind but he spaced wrong and it seems you were a bit prepared for it anyways. Not bad.
2:44-2:45 - Mindread. He's Azen. You don't metagame? (Gambling with aerials and whatnot.)
END

 

[sagemoon]

Edit: Re post above
@30-31: no time to react, his upair came out before i could pull out a dair, it was a combo, not a juggle.
@1:03 uair still wouldnt have hit and i would have been punished because of the lag
@1:15 That was a power shield meaning he had NO lag whatsoever. a normal shield would have enabled me to get my forward smash out earlier than him.
@1:41 full jump was to punish him for a get up attack if he did one. but yeah i messed up the spacing and recieved 9 damage that didnt combo into anything really...
@2:19 look again. I was expecting pit to grab the ledge, but instead he somehow gets a little extra boost and lands on the edge, w/ the confusement and lag theres no time to react. Azen was going to do that attack regardless if i grabbed the edge or not.
@2:31 I tried using forward smash (listen to the controller) it just didnt come out lol.

Dont say i dont "metagame" I can point out parts where i do. Plus you confused what i meant when i said spotdodgeing isnt as effective in wifi. First off you confused spotdodgeing with air dodgeing... 2nd. The spotdodges were all at times when he knew he would be vulnerable after his attack (they were proactive) in a non online match you can spotdodge when you see an attack coming (reactive)

I'll be sure to upload a vid vs ike or peach so you can see why the forward tilt is effective. It has a lot more range than you're giving it credit for.

oh yeah i forgot to mention that. In the begining of the 1.3 and at the 1.4 i was frantically trying to set the camera up right XD

The spotdodge wasnt a reactive one, it was proactive (basically like trying to use a counter as ike) so it was thinking one step ahead =D

 

[drag0nfeather]

I know the spot-dodge was proactive. That means he's reading your game. Of course, this is AZEN we're talking about here, so...

Edit: Actually, all MY spot-dodges are proactive too. I never said my spot-dodges are reactive. As a matter of fact, they're both. Pro-active and reactive are the same thing when it comes to spot-dodging.

It's all about the metagame.

Also, using Ike's counter and spot-dodging may be slightly similar but overall, definitely differ.

Spot-dodge is safe, ends in a shield, nearly no lag. Ike's counter: requires start-up, leaves lag, can be grabbed and won't be effective when it retaliates in a horizontal movement and you've struck him from below.

 

[sagemoon]

I was compairing wifi w/ lag spotdodge as to ike startup lag with counter (non wifi)

 

[drag0nfeather]

Edit: Re post above
@30-31: no time to react, his upair came out before i could pull out a dair, it was a combo, not a juggle.
@53 i was facing my back towards him
@1:03 uair still wouldnt have hit and i would have been punished because of the lag
@1:15 That was a power shield meaning he had NO lag whatsoever. a normal shield would have enabled me to get my forward smash out earlier than him.
@1:41 full jump was to punish him for a get up attack if he did one. but yeah i messed up the spacing and recieved 9 damage that didnt combo into anything really...
@2:19 look again. I was expecting pit to grab the ledge, but instead he somehow gets a little extra boost and lands on the edge, w/ the confusement and lag theres no time to react. Azen was going to do that attack regardless if i grabbed the edge or not.
@2:31 I tried using forward smash (listen to the controller) it just didnt come out lol.

I'll be sure to upload a vid vs ike or peach so you can see why the forward tilt is effective. It has a lot more range than you're giving it credit for.

0:30-0:31 - Hmm... I could see that. I personally haven't experienced first-hand, the lag of Pit's glide attack so I've never tried comboing it with a full-jump Uair so I give you that one.
0:53 - That doesn't make sense. You are facing him with your shield up, he's 4-5 feet away and you shield-grab.
1:03 - You did well with the Fair intercept-juggling before hand. I never implied that you should've used an Uair to catch him as he air-dodged. Are you mixing this with something else?
1:15 - I give you that one.
1:41 - I wonder if that would've worked. He's reading your game again. To be a niggler, the roll behind him was n00bish. Of course, this is AZEN so of course he can catch that.
2:19 - IGYTO.
2:31 - OIC.

Private message.

 

[sagemoon]

Oh my bad i was looking at 1:53 and i thought you were telling me to grab lol
@1:03 no i wasnt mixing it. I'm just saying that a nair after down throw is better than uair if you think your opponent will air dodge, Its less punishable.

 

[drag0nfeather]

Oh my bad i was looking at 1:53 and i thought you were telling me to grab lol
@1:03 no i wasnt mixing it. I'm just saying that a nair after down throw is better than uair if you think your opponent will air dodge, Its less punishable.

1:03 - You didn't use a down-throw. And if you used a Uair after a down-throw forcing your opponent to DI away and air-dodge, it wouldn't be punishable at all. They're DI'ing away from you. Going into the area of grey, I'll say that I don't know if it's possible for your opponent to throw off an aerial after they air-dodge out of your Uair (Nair) after a down-throw before they hit the ground or get out of range.

 

[sagemoon]

OHHH I see where you're talking about now. (youtube isnt good for play by play as you said) okay in that case, yeah. I was looking at 59-1:00
But no its not possible for an aerial but when you do u-air you will fall right in front of them and with nair you fall a little further away. (check your private messages)