Questions from a new Ike player? (3.5)

[Lunarowl]

I recently tried Project M for the first time and decided I want to main Ike - I have a few questions.

Which of Ikes moves should I be using the most in neutral?
What are Ikes best moves to edgeguard with?
What are Ikes best/worst matchups?
What are Ikes best OoS options?
Any tips on recovering?
Are there any important techs specific to Ike I should learn?


Thanks in advance, and if you think there is something else I need to know then feel free to write it.

 

[grandpappy]

1. Grab, grab, grab and grab. Ike's grab is good. Bait something then mess their day up.

2. FAir is by far the best option most of the time against a lot of characters. Weak hit of DAir can get you some pretty cheeky things like Weak DAir>BAir. Or it can just flat out stuff recoveries like Falco/Falcon/Ganon etc. Eruption or a well timed FSmash can mess with characters that have a hard time sweet spotting.

3. Best: Ike has some mean fun with characters with small hitboxes or no useful projectiles. Wario comes to mind. He shouldn't be able to get near you. I wreck Jiggs too pretty much all the time.
Worst: DDD isn't a lot of fun. You can't recover against a DDD who isn't asleep. Spacies can be pretty hard. They're close to being even, but you have to play pretty perfectly to beat a good Fox. (which is the case with most of the cast)

4. Ike doesn't have OOS options. Don't get caught in your shield. Wavedash OOS is pretty much the only thing you can do 99% of the time. If you're on a platform and can shield drop consistently, shield drop> NAir is pretty sexy.

5. Ike's recovery is pretty linear. Most people respect it way more than they should. Just try to be as unpredictable as you can I guess. I don't have any good advice for this because my playing partners don't edgeguard. Like at all.

6. Learn all the QD stuff obviously. Being smooth with the SideB things will get you a lot of nifty punishes.

That's all I got for now. Other people can probably help more because I'm bad.

 

[masterpad]

i am really a newbie but i can tell you for what i experienced as far:
1 - shortHop-Nair , even for spacing, most of the time it helps me avoid being grab.

2 - I stand at the ledge and use Fsmash or Dtilt as my egde could hit out of the stage. I am not good at egde-guarding with Fair, i think it needs accuracy, you should anticipated your opponent's recovery move. Most of the time I only manage to selfdestroy or expose myself while by standing at the ledge i just wait for the recovery scheme of my opponent (no need to anticipate).I hope i will master Fair egde-guarding soon.

3 - The worst are definitely projectiles users (Samus, Zelda) or even Mario and Luigi although QD really helps. I saw the Ally's Ike struggle painfuly agains M2K's mario at a tournament. i didn't experienced yet a particular easy matchup non-projectiles users are easier to play.

4 - I am still learning OoS-grab , i can't give advices on it.

5 - Just like shaZam! said, i really like ike but his recovery situations are soooo predictable! i come from brawl and i started PM in august 2014, and if the wall technig after Air-QD were totally removed in 3.5 i think i could have give up Ike (PM has so much attractible characters).
Ike use ether and QD to recover, you can hit an egde-guading opponent with your QD just before grabing the legde.
But i found that the must unprectitable scheme it to DI towards the stage as you would fall, QD and wall tech under the legde then recover with your jump, an ether or an air-dodge towards the stage.
It is not so great but its pretty cool and must of the time leess expected

That's all for my newbie contribution.

 

[Lunarowl]

1. Grab, grab, grab and grab. Ike's grab is good. Bait something then mess their day up.

Thanks for the reply, you answered my questions really well
Though I have another question - Which of Ike's grabs work best vs certain character weights? So basically what grabs should I be using vs floaties, fastfallers, and in betweens? And what are some common followups I can use?

 

[grandpappy]

Up Throw is your go to at low percents against pretty much everyone. On floaties and semi floaties UThrow sets up for followups with NAir juggles or a reverse BAir. I've gotten UThrow>Reverse hit of BAir>FF>Regrab on Mario at 0% but I don't know if that was real or just a dumb Mario. And UThrow can chaingrab fastfallers; Spacies til like 60% then send them off stage with a BAir or FAir>easy edgeguard. Obviously you need no platforms in the way for this to work, but platform tech chasing fastfallers is ezpz too with UTilt or waveland on platform>stuff.

At mid-high percents vs non fastfallers, you'll want to use FThrow because UThrow will send too high for you to get anything off of it. Then you can follow them with QD to get follow ups. You just have to react to DI at that point to decide what to use to follow up.

DThrow only really works on people who don't know how to DI it. And BThrow works as a positional throw to put somebody in a bad spot off stage if you grab them with your back to the edge.

 

[Lunarowl]

Thanks again :] but one more question - what are Ikes best stages?

 

[NQuad1Zero]

I think downthrow is a little underestimated. at low percents against nonfastfallers you can generally get a reverse ftilt if they DI anywhere except down (and even then it may work if they dont tech/too floaty), and is a free SH bair if they DI up. If you land a grab with your back against the ledge, downthrow sets up for SH bairs because people have a habit of DIing upwards if they're about to get sent offstage, and walk-off fair is very free against fastfallers after downthrowing them offstage (just becareful not to SD, but maps like Warioware/GreenhillZone will help compensate this).

Best Ike stages that are legal would probs be Warioware/Greenhillzone and the like that allows you for QD mixups, although alot of stages tend to benefit Ike, just depends on what benefits your opponent's character LESS imo.

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

Dthrow really isn't that bad, it's just that Ike's other throws are so much better that Dthrow is relatively useless, although it does have the occasional use, such as sending fastfallers offstage if you grab them with your back facing the ledge.

I'm not really sure how good this strategy is, but I'd say choose LARGE stages against characters who have worse neutrals than us, so that we can use our burst movement to do fakeouts and win the neutral. But against characters with better neutrals than us, choose SMALL stages, so that our sword can inherently control a lot of the stage, and we can kill earlier.

 

[metroid1117]

Although it might not be as combo-friendly as BThrow or FThrow at low or mid %s, it's worth noting that even at high %s, DThrow is a great combo move on floaties regardless of their DI; DThrow -> QD RAR BAir works on Zelda quite well even past 90%. It's also useful for positioning opponents in tech traps near the edge when BThrow would knock them too far away; such situations set up for DACUS, especially on FoD if you get them stuck on a platform.

 

[Lunarowl]

Thanks to everyone who replied, I definitely appreciate the help
hopefully other aspiring Ike players could find this useful as well

 

[Starfall11]

I did find this thread pretty helpful. Here's my take on the initial questions if you're still looking for advice. If not, sorry for the late replay. (I'm in class and have nothing better to do anyways.)

Neutral - As others have said. Nair and Grab are your best tools in neutral game. Watch Ally in some of his better matches. He uses dash dance and QD mixups to bait an opponent then go for a grab. When using Ike, think more about hitting your opponent for making a mistake. He can't be "truly" offensive. It's more about waiting for the right opportunity to grab or attack. Despite Ike's burst mobility, his attacks have long startup, so you'll need to bait an opponent.

Edgeguarding - Fair is a great edgeguard tool versus many recoveries. You just need to time it right. Other than that, use F-tilt against people who can't sweetspot well. Fsmash is occasionally useful, but I would stay away from it in the beginning as you don't want to form bad habits.

Matchups - Ike has a pretty even MU vs all of the spacies, mainly because you can chain grab them at 0% - ~50%~. After that, go for nair juggles and a Bair/Fair or even Uair to secure the KO. But you need to play very perfectly against spacies. If you get caught in your shield, they can pressure you ridiculously. Keep your distance with Ike, you wavedash, waveland, and dodges to stay evasive. Ike does better being evasive than he does staying in his shield. I find Lucario to be a tough MU, and anyone with a decent projectile. But don't rely too much on QD, and these MUs should be okay.

OoS Options - None. Seriously, he basically has none. Don't get caught in shield. He can shieldgrab and wavedash backwards, that's about it.

Recovery - Personally, I feel Ike has one of the best recoveries in the game. If you try to edgehog you, you can wall-jump off the stage and come back to hit them with QD attack or land on the stage. Aether has fantastic vertical range and people who don't understand the MU get scared of it.

Techs to Learn - Learn every QD follow-up. And I mean nearly everyone. In the beginning, focus on JC Grabs, and getting comfortable jumping out of it while using Ike's momentum to attack with aerials. As you get better, try wavedashing out of QD and RAR Bair for follow-ups which lead to KOs depending on DI.

Overall, Ike is a lot of fun when you get used to him. Just play cautiously with him. Remember, bait your opponent, then focus on offense.

 

[Sycko]

I am dumb, but can you juggle spacies and other fast fallers with utilt. I seem to do it a lot.