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Questions about streaming (Avermedia C127)

Coyle

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
52
Location
South East PA
I'm looking into streaming gameplay from my Wii with YPbPr component cables. I'm thinking about getting the Avermedia Game Broadcaster HD (Link) since it can record in 60 fps, and I don't need portability. Has anyone had any experience with this capture card? Are there any other recommended cards that can record with component cables and in 60 fps? I've looked around at other threads posted on SB, and the heavy majority are for, understandably, composite cables.

Thanks
 
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Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
I have both the Avermedia C027 / H727 and the StarTech PEXHDCAP. I like the latter much more, it’s similar to the C127 you linked but has better drivers and, to be honest, Avermedia support is pretty meh. After I and TheThrillness contacted them for many weeks explaining and demonstrating how bad component looks on these cards, they managed to give us new beta drivers with which it was even worse.

Here is a comparison:

Avermedia H727 with Gamecube 480p YPbPr (“component”) video input:


Yuan SC-500 = StarTech PEXHDCAP with Gamecube 480p YPbPr:


Yuan SC-500 = StarTech PEXHDCAP with Gamecube 480p RGBHV:

(It actually looks slightly better now, this is an old screenshot from when I mistakenly set the contrast level slightly too high)

StarTech is a reseller of all kinds of OEM electronics. The PEXHDCAP is a rebrand of the taiwanese Yuan SC-500N1. Yuan cards are the gold standard in the high-definition livestreaming / gameplay recording community. At least if you want to spend less than 1000$.

The SC-500 is somewhat limited in that it cannot capture 1080p60, but neither can the Avermedia C127. (C127’s Amazon listing title is misleading and makes one think it can, but in the description they state that you can feed it 1080p60, but only 1080p30 will be captured.)
If you only want to capture / stream Melee, PM and the likes, it doesn’t matter, though. If you also want to do Smash 4, 1080p60 would be perfect, but there are many problems with that (Flash player being bad and dropping frames on the viewers part and massive processing load for encoding, for example) so it’s not recommended at the moment.

If you still want to have the 1080p60 for being future-proof, I’d recommend the big sister of the SC-500, which is the SC-512. That card is about twice as much ($310-ish), handles 1080p60 easily and also has a powered passthrough daughterboard, so you don’t need any splitters.

I personally do the splitting with a USB-powered 4-way RGBHV (aka VGA) distribution amplifier (I paid 15€ for it) and a 4-way 3.5 mm audio distribution amplifier (paid 20€ for this one, also useful because you can hook up many speakers and even headphones for the players who want to have in-game sound for reaction cues, but headphones to be isolated from noise and cheering / booing).
These additional 35€ were much less than the additional 150€ I would have had to pay for buying the SC-512 instead of the SC-500. I also don’t need 1080p60 at all, and having composite and S-Video inputs is, imho, only useful if you are a traveling livestreamer who has to work with a myriad of consoles. If you only stream from the consoles you carry with yourself and have component or VGA cables for all of them, this feature of the SC-512 is unnecessary.

Another big issue is the monitor you will use. Even the fastest LCDs still have 10 milliseconds display lag, opposed to the 670 nanoseconds of CRTs, so I think using a CRT is advisable. However, it’s not that easy to obtain a CRT that can display 480p. Most abundant are old PC monitors, which always do 480p60, but you need VGA cables for those.

There are VGA cables for both Gamecube and Wii, but the former are hard to find / expensive and the latter are of lower quality than the Gamecube ones and none of the VGA splitters I use work with them. If you go for a capture card without a pass-through daughterboard, you need to split the VGA signal, though, so essentially you can only go with Gamecubes.

This isn’t too bad, though, since lately there have been reports that the Gamecube’s 480p output is of considerably higher quality than the Wii’s anyway.
Even the Gamecube’s video output is limited to 4:2:2 subsampling, though, but it doesn’t really matter since Twitch / Youtube downsample to 4:2:0 anyway. ( ;_; )

Gamecube VGA cables are semi-official—they are mods of the official component / D-Terminal cables. You can modify them yourself or buy them online for ~90$. (Expensive, but worth it imho, although I got lucky and bought 4 of them for ~20€ each; this price is really rare nowadays though, unfortunately.)

I hope this is not too much information, but you seem like you care about the quality and I’ve read / experimented quite a lot about this so I figured you could make use of my findings.
 
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Coyle

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
52
Location
South East PA
You've given me a lot to think about. Options to weigh, and TVs to search for. Do you have any insight as to why VGA splitters don't work with Wii VGA cables?

I appreciate your thorough reply. It was very helpful.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
You've given me a lot to think about. Options to weigh, and TVs to search for. Do you have any insight as to why VGA splitters don't work with Wii VGA cables?
I’m not perfectly sure, but here’s what I think:
Component video carries composite sync, which is transported together with the luma data within the Y signal (green cable). The Wii VGA cables might convert the Y, Pb and Pr color information to RGB, but keep the csync instead of splitting it into horizontal sync and vertical sync. If it did that, it would be proper RGBHV (red, green, blue, horizontal sync, vertical sync).

Splitting csync to hsync and vsync might require additional / more expensive hardware, so maybe Mayflash (the producer of the Wii VGA cables) decided to keep it as csync to reduce costs. As far as I know, most / all CRT PC monitors accept RGBs (red, green, blue, composite sync), so the decision makes sense from that fact. However, the distribution amplifiers might be built to only accept proper RGBHV and not RGBs. So if they are being fed RGBs and the csync is sent on the, say, hsync pin, it might only use the hsync and drop all of the vsync data.

Again, this is just a guess on my part. It might be a totally different cause, but I’m not a professional and don’t know all that much. Maybe there are VGA distribution amplifiers that support the Wii VGA cables? I’m not willing to buy as many of them until one of them works, though. My 2-outputs-amplifier was 12€ and the 4-outputs-one was 16€, and these were the cheapest I was able to find.

Note that for Gamecube VGA cables, these cheap dist amps work extremely well.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
@ Coyle Coyle so I just did some testing, and I’m very sure that the Wii VGA cables do output RGBHV and not RGBS. I did this by connecting them to a Sony PVM using BNC breakout cables and trying to get a proper picture by setting the PVM to external sync and trying both the vsync and hsync BNC lead. None of them produced proper picture, which only makes sense if the cables output RGBHV. (Neither in H nor in V is enough information to properly sync the video.)

So my guess in my last post was all wrong. I have no idea what the difference between Gamecube VGA cables’ and Wii VGA cables’ outputs might consist of at this point. It doesn’t make sense to me that Gamecube RGBHV works perfectly well with my dist amps but Wii RGBHV doesn’t work at all.

The highest-quality somewhat affordable VGA dist amps seem to be those manufactured by Extron. I can’t find any retailers offering them near me, but maybe someone reading this has both an Extron dist amp and the Wii VGA cables and can shed some light on this?
 
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