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[Question] What Positive Matchups does Link Have?

KenMeister

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In order to see where he stands in comparison to Brawl (where none of his matchups were positive) and Melee (wins against what? 10 characters?) I wanted to see where the Link mains stand in terms of what they know what Link has going for him in terms of positive matchups. Were his buffs good enough for Link mains to know exactly how to fundamentally handle certain characters well enough? Is anyone certain of what characters Link does well against exactly? Maybe a few of the high tiers and possibly top to be a counterpick character? I'd like opinions that are pretty solidified at this point.
 
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Ryu_Ken

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Well, it's been a month since the game's been out. Many players have the game, but many are holding out for the WiiU release. They prefer the WiiU since you have more freedom with control layout and don't have to deal with the small awkward controls of the 3ds, which contributes to skill. Give it a couple more months, maybe until January, and then we can be certain what Link's + and - are as well as the mechanics of Smash4 overall.
 

Elessar

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I think that right now any peron insterested in learning Link should just focus on that, learning him and all his possible tools. There is no true meta yet since the game has barely been out a month and there isn't even enough representation in big scenes. You should test him out. I see that you mained him in Brawl. I don't knwo how good you became with him, but Sm4sh Link is very similar to Brawl Link in terms of playability, so adapting to him comes off really natural (kind of like Sheik as well). So, try him out and get your own assessment until the meta develops a bit more.
 

A_Phoenix_Down

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In order to see where he stands in comparison to Brawl (where none of his matchups were positive) and Melee (wins against what? 10 characters?) I wanted to see where the Link mains stand in terms of what they know what Link has going for him in terms of positive matchups. Were his buffs good enough for Link mains to know exactly how to fundamentally handle certain characters well enough? Is anyone certain of what characters Link does well against exactly? Maybe a few of the high tiers and possibly top to be a counterpick character? I'd like opinions that are pretty solidified at this point.
I havent had much hands on experience since i didn't get the 3DS version. However, I have played the demo and I used Link 99% of the time as well as watch many videos and streams with Link. Link is MUCH better this time around. He's pretty much everything from Brawl except done better. In terms of matchups, I Link seems to be pretty good against Ness. He's able to punish heavyweights like Bowser and Ike pretty good as well. All Sonic really does is run around so he's not a threat. Shiek however, is a major threat it seems. I watched this matchup and Link had a lot of trouble with her. Then again, a lot of other people did too so I'm assuming Sheik will become High Tier. It seems that other threats include Little Mac, Fox, and Pikachu from what I've seen. Matchups that look pretty fun to me so far are Marth, Ike, and Lucario.

In terms of Tier List, I'm confident Link won't be in the dreaded F tier anymore. He certainly won't go SSS but I'm gonna wager a 20-25 placement on the chart.
 
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Ryu_Ken

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All Sonic really does is run around so he's not a threat.
Oh he does more than run around in this game. His spin-dashes have received a significant buff, one that makes him combo a lot better than in brawl. I faced a sonic that used his spin-dashes very effectively and constantly kept me on my toes. Initially, I played the matchup wrong by trying to camp sonic, which I got punished for. You can see it here: http://youtu.be/EX1qtwTMtWg
Sonic has the potential to become a threat against him. Personally, I need to work on this MU, but u can see what he's capable of in this game.
 

A_Phoenix_Down

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Oh he does more than run around in this game. His spin-dashes have received a significant buff, one that makes him combo a lot better than in brawl. I faced a sonic that used his spin-dashes very effectively and constantly kept me on my toes. Initially, I played the matchup wrong by trying to camp sonic, which I got punished for. You can see it here: http://youtu.be/EX1qtwTMtWg
Sonic has the potential to become a threat against him. Personally, I need to work on this MU, but u can see what he's capable of in this game.
Yeah the camping kinda beat you at the end. He was honestly rushing you so hard and kept taking advantage of you attempting to pull out the bombs towards the end which really got you. Good game though, nonetheless. But you did bring up a good observation with the spin-dashes. Personally, I haven't seen that in action in the way you had to deal with it. Good to know for future matchups.
 

CostLow

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I can give you this much... to this day I have yet to meet a Jigglypuff that really gave me that much trouble. The few attacks she can land against us doesn't rack up damage enough to really make Link too worried. Maybe someone else has seen otherwise but I really don't think this will change just because of the Wii U looming off in the distance. lol
 

Elessar

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The bottom line though is still that the meta game is still non existant practically and that Link has still had very little representation in major tourneys. Link has been buffed, but I've talked with many Link mains who also claim that he has been nerfed in some quite powerful aspects (such as quick draw and the dash attack for being too slow). Only time will tell whether this is true or not. What each of us feel or think might mean someting as it may not mean anything in the long run, so simply sit and wait until Apex. Then we'll know.
 

CostLow

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@ Elessar Elessar - Earlier you said to just focus on Link, but do you think that the Wii U will push the "metagame" of the 3DS? I mean, will most of these characters likely gain anything in the 3DS by the Wii U being released? Also, if updates keep coming out to "balance" the game will there even be a point in talking about tiers or matchups as long as there is still support for the game? Just theory-crafting right now...
 

Jade_Rock55

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A cstick allows easier smashes,ability to dacus and dairs without fast falling and retreating fairs.So a wiiu could help some characters.
 
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A_Phoenix_Down

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@ Elessar Elessar - Earlier you said to just focus on Link, but do you think that the Wii U will push the "metagame" of the 3DS? I mean, will most of these characters likely gain anything in the 3DS by the Wii U being released? Also, if updates keep coming out to "balance" the game will there even be a point in talking about tiers or matchups as long as there is still support for the game? Just theory-crafting right now...
The fact is, the 3DS version of Smash can never be as competitive as the Wii U version will be. I'm not saying the 3DS version is bad but it can't support as much. Not to mention there will be a lot less frequent 3DS players once the Wii U version comes out. I'm expecting much less lag in the Wii U version, and the controller is the biggest thing that stands out. The 3DS controls can cause a lot of mistakes due to a much less natural feel, making points like matchups and tier lists out of the question for now. We'll have to wait for the Wii U version to answer anything like that.

The Wii U version will be the one to create the meta for Smash 4. The 3DS merely gave us an idea of what each character is capable of.
 

Elessar

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@ Elessar Elessar - Earlier you said to just focus on Link, but do you think that the Wii U will push the "metagame" of the 3DS? I mean, will most of these characters likely gain anything in the 3DS by the Wii U being released? Also, if updates keep coming out to "balance" the game will there even be a point in talking about tiers or matchups as long as there is still support for the game? Just theory-crafting right now...
Well, the most important difference between the 3DS and the Wii U will be ATs. The incorporation of the cstick will allow for more Ats (theoretically) as well as a better control of the chars. For this reason, it could be argued that focusing on tech sckill right now is not the most important thing you can do. While it will surely help, getting used to the cstick and the control stick will take some time. I say this because las Saturday I played some PM with some friends, and getting used to feeling the Pro Controller's slightly less sensitive stick took some time. I had a bit of a harder time doing smashes and I wasn't using the cstick since I just got used to not relying on it. These are silly nonissues, but they are annoying when transitioning and just illustrate how the 3DS controllers are possibly affecting us and the meta.

Now, concerning the metagame of the 3DS, I think that to some extent it will be the same as the one for Wii U, BUT it'll always be a bit behind. It will push it (for the resons mentioned above) but I don't think it'll always be able to be on par with it (again, for the reasons mentioned above). I do think that all chars will gain something once the Wii U is out, since the game and hte ngine is the same, so the same ATs excist in both, just that the 3DS is a bit behind it due to the lack of a cstick (something that might change with the release of the new 3DS).

Finally, while we all hope for balance patches, we do no know whether the will actually be helpful. For all we know they may fix something and break something else, not really address competitive balance, nor even address all chars, but only some. Why is this? To release balance patches, the devs keep a close eye on the community and the competitive scene (something Ninty is infamous for not only not doing but refusing to even acknowledge it) to see how a game evolves, when something is broken or when an imbalance appears in order to fix it to restore balance. For this to happen appropiately, all chars must have not only equal representation, but also equally loud. That means that, in theroy, if nobody mains Link on large important tourneys, and nobody voices the issues with him, the devs will not know what's wrong and never address his issues. This means that we have to become more active, in both accounts, and make our complints heard through the appropiate channels. Of course, this is true IF the devs do release balance patches, something which may not happen. Keep in mind that one thing is fixing something broken (like the infinite they have already removed) and another is addressing minor balance issues (like making Link's dash attack come out slightly faster or give it more shield breaking properties to balance it for its speed).

And finally finally, MU threads will always be important since they will be true for months. Patches are not released every other week, but may be released ever 4 months. During that time, the meta will continue to evolve correspondingly and so, we all need to adjust to the new meta and/or MU as to keep competitive.

I think I addressed all your concerns, and I hope that this makes as much sense written as it did on my head. If it doesn't, read it again until it does, and if you have any other theory crafting questions, let me know. I'll be happy to crit you all with another wall of meandering text.

Edit: I forgot to address one thing. I said focus on Link because the best thing we can do right now is learning and focusing on basics like spacing, pacing, spamming, speed, and reading imho.
 
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DavemanCozy

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Lol, poor Melee Link. The only matchups I liked to play with him in that game were :jigglypuffmelee: and :samusmelee:

Smash 4 Link feels awesome though. In my opinion, I think he's one of the top 20 in this game's eventual tier list.

The common ones, IMO, that he wins against are:
:4bowserjr:, :4bowser:, :4littlemac:, :4marth:, :4lucina:

I think he goes even with:
:4peach:, :4duckhunt:, :4ness:, :4shulk:

I think what will keep Link from being top though, is how much he struggles against these at the moment:
:4sonic:, :4greninja:, :4zss:, :4robinm: give me the hardest time of my life as Link.
 

CostLow

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Lol, poor Melee Link. The only matchups I liked to play with him in that game were :jigglypuffmelee: and :samusmelee:

Smash 4 Link feels awesome though. In my opinion, I think he's one of the top 20 in this game's eventual tier list.

The common ones, IMO, that he wins against are:
:4bowserjr:, :4bowser:, :4littlemac:, :4marth:, :4lucina:

I think he goes even with:
:4peach:, :4duckhunt:, :4ness:, :4shulk:

I think what will keep Link from being top though, is how much he struggles against these at the moment:
:4sonic:, :4greninja:, :4zss:, :4robinm: give me the hardest time of my life as Link.
This is almost exactly my list. Just add those two from Melee to the first group and you got my list right now.
 

KenMeister

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Lol, poor Melee Link. The only matchups I liked to play with him in that game were :jigglypuffmelee: and :samusmelee:

Smash 4 Link feels awesome though. In my opinion, I think he's one of the top 20 in this game's eventual tier list.

The common ones, IMO, that he wins against are:
:4bowserjr:, :4bowser:, :4littlemac:, :4marth:, :4lucina:

I think he goes even with:
:4peach:, :4duckhunt:, :4ness:, :4shulk:

I think what will keep Link from being top though, is how much he struggles against these at the moment:
:4sonic:, :4greninja:, :4zss:, :4robinm: give me the hardest time of my life as Link.
Wait, he has an advantage against Marth/ Lucina now? Explain.
 

DavemanCozy

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Wait, he has an advantage against Marth/ Lucina now? Explain.
Marth's range got nerfed (again), putting him on even ground with Link's range. He's also got a ton of lag added to his moves now, he can't control space as well as he used to. Link can approach him much more safely as a result. Not to mention Link's got projectiles, and options with them, making it hard for Marth to get close. Same can be said for Lucina.

But imo, considering it again, I shouldn't have put them there, I would say that the MU is more-so even. I still acknowledge that Marth and Lucy are good, despite the nerfs Marth got he can still edgeguard Link very well, and his range is the reason he can claim to be safe at mid-range from Link. Same again for Lucina. I do not think they beat Link though, but I could see these MU's being even.
 

A_Phoenix_Down

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Out of all the videos I've seen, Link lost to Greninja every time.

Sheiks beat him like 80% of the matches I saw.

It seems he's not too good against those spammy characters that nobody really likes to fight.
 

KenMeister

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So yeah...I haven't really seen anyone besides maybe 2 people bust out some Links in tournament since WiiU (KirinBlaze and one other guy, I forget his name) , none of them made it out of brackets, and Keitaro probably gave up on Link....I'm praying he isn't low tier again by this point. Come on out Izaw, and save this character, please?
 
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A_Phoenix_Down

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He isnt low-tier. Now that I've had extensive time with Link since the Wii U version release, I can positively say he's making it into the 15-25 area.

He's extremely good in this game. I've made other players quit mid-match. Maybe I'm just really good but I mained Link in Brawl and he was definitely nowhere near as good as he is now. Everything wrong with Link is now fixed.
 

Dumbfire

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So yeah...I haven't really seen anyone besides maybe 2 people bust out some Links in tournament since WiiU (KirinBlaze and one other guy, I forget his name) , none of them made it out of brackets, and Keitaro probably gave up on Link....
KirinBlaze, BrimeZ, Lord Xav1er and recently Cyner have used him at Wii U tournaments -- and there haven't exactly been many of those yet. The latter two placed very well at small-scale tournaments, the former did reasonably well at very large tournaments. He's no top 5 character, to be sure, but he's better. The information we have hardly calls for desperation.
 

KenMeister

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KirinBlaze, BrimeZ, Lord Xav1er and recently Cyner have used him at Wii U tournaments -- and there haven't exactly been many of those yet. The latter two placed very well at small-scale tournaments, the former did reasonably well at very large tournaments. He's no top 5 character, to be sure, but he's better. The information we have hardly calls for desperation.
Oops, yeah Brimez and KirinBlaze were the ones I watched, so yeah, from the looks of the last 2 you mentioned, I haven't heard of them before. I'll be sure to look them up.
 

Dumbfire

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Oops, yeah Brimez and KirinBlaze were the ones I watched, so yeah, from the looks of the last 2 you mentioned, I haven't heard of them before. I'll be sure to look them up.
Cyner posted his results here, and you can find a Lord Xav1er match from a Rhode Island tournament in the video thread. There are far more results of course, but they haven't really been compiled well so far. Just looking on the first page of the result sub-board shows other Link players representing him.
 

Elessar

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So yeah...I haven't really seen anyone besides maybe 2 people bust out some Links in tournament since WiiU (KirinBlaze and one other guy, I forget his name) , none of them made it out of brackets, and Keitaro probably gave up on Link....I'm praying he isn't low tier again by this point. Come on out Izaw, and save this character, please?
You have to keeping mind that Link, as many other former low tier chars, still suffers from underrepresentation. Almost nobody tries to play him because he's always been trash, so why bother trying to win with hard work when you can win easy. Link is a charming that demands a lot of great fundamentals to go even with the commonly perceived top tiers and as such his high learning curve is a bit alienating to newer players/tier wenches.

I'm also confident in that, based on what we've seen and experienced so far, Link is definitively high mid at least this time around.
 
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