Puppet Masters and Tier Lists

[Enrel]

Since this pertains to the only puppet master we have in the game. I figure the Rosalina boards are the best place to discuss this. To be honest my experience with fighting games tends to be limited to a select few. So statements or assertions may not always be correct or possibly misguided.

With some of the more traditional fighting games, the puppet master character is someone who is ALWAYS difficult to play no matter the circumstances having the rely on a second splits someone's attention in a fight. Ice Climbers were apart of this and were considered one of the highest skill caps in the game due to desync. They were always considered one of highest in terms of Tiers. Though that might be due to infinites. There's one thing that seems to be true for all cases, Puppet Masters are characters of extremes.

They're either so insanely good they're always a high tier if not the highest. Either that or they're complete trash. Now don't take this in regards to calling Rosalina OP because she's not. Definitely IMO top 10 material. But this sort of thing is interesting to think about.

What makes these characters so strong or weak? The second character of-course plays a key factor in this. There's no other way around it. They are completely balanced around this second character more than they are balanced around the main one it feels. Instead of the occasional tool to help out this second character becomes the main character. Almost like Puppet Masters are glorified escort quests. Are Puppet Masters just too hard to balance? They fall either in the higher end of tiers or the lower end.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In the case of puppet fighters being high tier, I think it's a combination of two factors. First, a second controllable entity essentially doubles the amount of space the player can control at any given time (provided they separate the puppet from the main entity). In the case where the puppet stays close by, their presence can dissuade certain punish attempts depending on the exact mechanics of how it's controlled.

The second factor is extended combos. While "combos" are less of a thing in Smash than other entries such as BlazBlue, a controllable puppet means you can follow up in cases where normally an attack would send the target too far to reach before hitstun wears off.

Rosalina benefits from both of these factors. When attached, Luma is a major annoyance for its ability to retaliate after hitting Rosalina. It's fairly easy to kill off if you know how, but if you're not careful it's simple for Rosalina to use it to prevent a proper followup. Even the threat of such forces some players to simply shield after a hit instead of rushing in for more, which helps Rosalina immensely. When separated, Luma allows Rosalina to exert pressure at no risk to herself and forces the opponent to react, although again Luma is vulnerable on its own and a lot of characters have an answer to this. While setting up combos and followups with Luma is tricky due to the general trend of keeping it linked to Rosalina unless necessary and the relative slowness of Luma Shot, they are powerful when they happen.

I believe Luma Warp is such a good custom option because the sheer speed at which it works strengthens both factors of Rosalina's puppet game. Luma Shot, while a powerful move if it hits, is quite slow to execute at any range that requires a charge and it's fairly simple to deal with. Luma Warp lets Luma slip right through a lot of zoning and is fast enough to legitimately combo off of some hits, allowing for more followups.

 

[Garde Noir]

I agree with ParanoidDrone, as I usually do.

The problem with Rosalina in THIS fighting game is that in most fighting games, you're in a "lockdown" which limits mobility, and is more about timing and mind games than anything else, whereas this game is open enough that the puppet becomes a double edged sword. Timing and mind games are just as important, but in a different way-- the limitless options means you have to know the character much more.

The problem I have with Rosalina is the immense amount of quick characters. Rosalina (and all puppet characters like her) is about control, and therefore dominates characters like Villager, Zelda, Duck Hunt, ect. that have similar speed and/or spacing as she does, because her character is so focused on control. However, Speed-Shulk, Sonic, Sheik, Yoshi and Diddy tend to be problems because their speed simply shuts down that option.

Rosalina takes an immense amount of skill because controlling such a vast amount of variables, from the dozens and dozens of play styles with dozens and dozens of characters requires an insane amount of knowledge, and that is part of your extreme argument. Yes, you must be extreme at Rosalina to use her to her potential, and when her potential is unlocked, she is a force and a half of control. Because of this, our metagame develops much more slowly than that of Diddy, or Sonic, or Sheik, and we spend less time innovating than we do catching up.

The metagame is still relatively new, we have time.

 

[Enrel]

Well I would argue with control for characters that are projectile heavy Gravity Pull itself neutralizes a lot of their options to begin with. It's a really good skill that eats pretty much any projectile thrown at her. It's fast and responsive even though has some end frame lag to it. It's like any character with a good reflector has control over the same people. If Down B was anything I'd argue that she wouldn't have NEARLY as much control over them as she does now. It also doesn't help that those same characters have really slow and predictable projectiles.

Those same characters outside of maybe Zelda are just as easily controlled by Palutena and she's not really considered top tier material. Actually come to think of it Palutena has probably just as much problems with the same fast characters as Rosalina but is considered pretty much trash tier. (I do consider non-customs because we can't always bet that customs will be active you know)

Though I'm interested in what you mean by playing catch up. There isn't many Pro Rosalina plays we see outside of Dabuz and I'd say his play style hasn't changed much since he started and he still is very dominant in the scene. Though it might not always be fair pointing him out, but like isn't he supposed to be considered the standard that all Rosa players strive for? (The domination not necessarily the play style)

Personally though I've always liked the idea of the puppet master gameplay style even if I suck at it. It has always been very interesting seeing it in high play. It's just as much fun as the Trap Character in terms of execution.

 

[vegeta18]

the puppet character in blazblue sucks, lowest tier in the game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Well I would argue with control for characters that are projectile heavy Gravity Pull itself neutralizes a lot of their options to begin with. It's a really good skill that eats pretty much any projectile thrown at her. It's fast and responsive even though has some end frame lag to it. It's like any character with a good reflector has control over the same people. If Down B was anything I'd argue that she wouldn't have NEARLY as much control over them as she does now. It also doesn't help that those same characters have really slow and predictable projectiles.

Those same characters outside of maybe Zelda are just as easily controlled by Palutena and she's not really considered top tier material. Actually come to think of it Palutena has probably just as much problems with the same fast characters as Rosalina but is considered pretty much trash tier. (I do consider non-customs because we can't always bet that customs will be active you know)

Though I'm interested in what you mean by playing catch up. There isn't many Pro Rosalina plays we see outside of Dabuz and I'd say his play style hasn't changed much since he started and he still is very dominant in the scene. Though it might not always be fair pointing him out, but like isn't he supposed to be considered the standard that all Rosa players strive for? (The domination not necessarily the play style)

Personally though I've always liked the idea of the puppet master gameplay style even if I suck at it. It has always been very interesting seeing it in high play. It's just as much fun as the Trap Character in terms of execution.

To be frank, Palutena is more mobile than Rosalina, but her laggy attacks make it very hard for her to do anything without getting punished; fighters can grab her before the attacks even begin to execute. Even Palutena's Reflect Barrier special is flawed in that it only protects her from frontal projectiles; projectiles from above and behind will still damage her.

Rosalina's movement may only be around average, but at least her attack speed is manageable for most of her attacks.

 

[Enrel]

To be frank, Palutena is more mobile than Rosalina, but her laggy attacks make it very hard for her to do anything without getting punished; fighters can grab her before the attacks even begin to execute. Even Palutena's Reflect Barrier special is flawed in that it only protects her from frontal projectiles; projectiles from above and behind will still damage her.

Rosalina's movement may only be around average, but at least her attack speed is manageable for most of her attacks.

Oh for sure! Palutena has her own problems. But I feel like they can be overcome with a lot of other fighter's weaknesses for the most part.

But yeah Rosalina has a lot going for her like her range and killing potential with Luma. As well as not THAT laggy moves. Sure she has some with a lot of recovery, but she has just as many with good to decent recovery that cause some major zoning options.

 

[Amiracle]

I personally love fighting against Rosalina and Luma because she honestly is not an easy character to play. It's very easy to kill her and she's quite slow. I used to have trouble against her, but now I respect Luma and it's become a lot easier. I beat most Rosalinas consistently with just about any character

I think Captain Falcon wrecks her pretty hard

 

[Enrel]

Well yeah faster characters like Falcon have little to no issue with Rosalina for the simple fact that their speed trumps her own movements most of the time. The trick I still think eludes with a character of decent speed and not decent knockback.

Though I feel like matchups aren't quite the angle I was going with for this thread.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Customizations can also make or break a match-up's outcome. Shooting Star Bit obviously adds some pressure to anyone who lacks a reflecting/absorbing move.

 

[Amiracle]

I think the shooting star bit is pretty broken. It would never be allowed in a tournament setting

 

[WhiteMageBD]

I personally love fighting against Rosalina and Luma because she honestly is not an easy character to play. It's very easy to kill her and she's quite slow. I used to have trouble against her, but now I respect Luma and it's become a lot easier. I beat most Rosalinas consistently with just about any character

I think Captain Falcon wrecks her pretty hard

naw, play a skilled one like me and you will have a lot of trouble winning, Rosy can kill him at very low percents with a meteor dair. Or just edgeguard him hard anyway because Falcon is a sitting duck when recovering. Also, in the neutral, you have to get some great reads to get the upper hand,. Plus, falcon is super easy to combo with her lunar landing combos. and getting a jab on falcon is a free 30% damage. Trust me, I play Falcon too, and I have a much harder time winning with him against Rosy than the other way around

 

[Parcheesy]

I think the shooting star bit is pretty broken. It would never be allowed in a tournament setting

As someone who plays with customs often, this isn't remotely true. There are so many absurdly good customs out there for other characters that revolutionize their playstyle, that having a moderately annoying falco laser in neutral isn't gamebreaking. Maybe I'm just underestimating the potential of Luma Warp, but I don't even think Rosalina is a top character in a customs environment.

I suppose time will tell though. With big tournaments deciding to use customs, we'll very quickly start seeing which characters benefit most from interchangeable specials, and I don't think it will be Rosalina by a long shot.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

As someone who plays with customs often, this isn't remotely true. There are so many absurdly good customs out there for other characters that revolutionize their playstyle, that having a moderately annoying falco laser in neutral isn't gamebreaking. Maybe I'm just underestimating the potential of Luma Warp, but I don't even think Rosalina is a top character in a customs environment.

I suppose time will tell though. With big tournaments deciding to use customs, we'll very quickly start seeing which characters benefit most from interchangeable specials, and I don't think it will be Rosalina by a long shot.

Luma Warp does give Rosalina some interesting zone-breaking ability. A F-something (but it's bloody fast) that suddenly puts Luma in your face with a hitbox to boot?

It keeps her relevant at the very least, but I think we're all pretty familiar with how Rosalina tears apart people that don't respect Luma.

 

[Enrel]

I don't really feel like customs gives Rosalina anymore real edge than what she already has while other characters jump significant tiers with customs. Luma Warp does look like a really good too and so does Shooting Star, but those are really the only two options in her set that seem decent selections.

 

[C0rvus]

I don't really feel like customs gives Rosalina anymore real edge than what she already has while other characters jump significant tiers with customs. Luma Warp does look like a really good too and so does Shooting Star, but those are really the only two options in her set that seem decent selections.

I dunno, personally I feel that though her extra options are basically limited to Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit those are arguably straight upgrades from the default. They offer her more stage control and allow her to poke and pressure from pretty much anywhere on the stage. Maybe she doesn't benefit from customs as much as say, Donkey Kong, she also doesn't need much of a push.

On another note, my friend has been experimenting with the other custom Star Bit, and I feel it can really be effective in certain matchups. The slow-moving projectile is seemingly un-clankable. It gave my Marth trouble in particular.

 

[DisidisiD]

The slow-moving projectile is seemingly un-clankable. It gave my Marth trouble in particular.

It is unclankable/ transcendent. Also, how did it affect your Marth play?

Moderator Edit: Fixed up the quote tag.

 

[C0rvus]

It is unclankable/ transcendent. Also, how did it affect your Marth play?

Moderator Edit: Fixed up the quote tag.

Well, Rosalina in general gives my Marth problems, mostly because it feels like she does his job better than him (spacing, that is). But the slow star bit is just a pain, really. An active hitbox that sticks around for a bit, if spaced, can create an opportunity to be sandwiched and pressured. I think Rosa mains should strongly consider it in matchups where the opponent doesn't have a projectile.