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Promotion of the Pledge of Allegiance

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adumbrodeus

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Atheism is a religion, so by removing God you are "shoving down our throats" the belief that there isn't a God.
And like it or not, your quotes for why religion has no place in government really aren't quite taken in context.
Legally, you're correct about Atheism, because establishing atheism violates the free extercise clause anyway, however, nobody is suggesting repecting an establishment of atheism. Complete neutrality in religious matters is not respecting an establishment of atheism. Respecting an establishment of atheism is the government putting up tablets that espouse the Atheist ten commandments at courthouses (for reference, you can read them here).

Lack of preference is NOT preference for the negative.



The "separation of church and state" (which isn't even in the constitution, mind you) is in reference to an established church that rules with the government. There's no chance that we have that now, seeing as people who have diferent beliefs aren't put to death or imprisoned.
Actually, it is the Constitution, the phrase was defined after the fact to mean the first amendment principals known as the establishment and free exercise clause. If you just mean that the words "seperation of church and state" and there, that's true, but has no bearing on the discussion since what it's defined at, is there.

As for it's meaning, it has two clauses, establishment and free extercise. We all know what the free exercise clause means, let's parse the establishment clause, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Now does it say, "establishing a state religion"? No, it says "respecting an establishment of religion", the phrase is significantly broader, and refers to any actions which treat a religion in a manner similar to if it was a state religion, which ultimately boils down to it being given preferential treatment. Furthermore, it say, "an", not, "the", which means that the establishment being respected of multiple religions falls afoul of this as well.

Furthermore, state preference for religion(s) is coercive by it's nature, which violates the free exercise clause. It encourages support for a religion or religions, or lack of support for a religion or religion, which applies a positive or negative incentive, thereby is coercive, violating free exercise.

Yes, I know that it only applies to the federal legislature, but in order to do something, theoretically the Judicial Branch requires a law to interpret, and the Executive Branch requires a law to execute, only the Legislative branch has original jurisdiction so, legally speaking, preventing the Legislature prevents the other branches.

As for States, the state Constitutions all have clauses which cede their right to interfere in religion, so under the tenth amendment, there are only 3 groups which can have a power, the Federal Government, the State Governments, and the people, so the power is reserved only to the people. The tenth amendment also gives the Federal Judiciary the power to enforce this.

Including the "under God" in the pledge does not mean that the government is forcing you to worship God, but perhaps giving a nod back to the relgion on which it was founded. What are you gonna do, start changing history books so that our founding fathers were atheists just so no one gets offended?
Either way, it's showing preference towards not only religion over non-religion, but also a specific class of religions, so it violates both establishment and free exercise clause.

As for founding Fathers, we respect their religious preferences by historical mentioning, having the state prefer their particular religion, ESPECIALLY considering the fact that they took great pains to make the sure the government did not do such a thing, is completely fallacious.

Furthermore, the principals which they founded the government on, while bearing a resemblance to some religious principals, are grounded in decidedly non-religious enlightenment era thought.




Either way, as a matter of protecting itself from the changing political tides, religion should further distance itself from the state. By influencing the state, religion is opening itself to state influence, inviting corruption, and making itself vulnerable to persecution once the political tides swing against it. To oppose seperation of Church and state is short-sighted at best, no matter what group you are part of.
 

Pythag

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I still disagree that it is in the constitution. I know it's in a letter between Jefferson and Adams but nothing about it in the constitution.
Essentially what it's boiling down to is that no one is going to be happy. If you remove God, than our country has an atheist bias and blah blah blah. I don't completely understand why it's such a big deal, it personally pisses me off when people get in such a huff.
This problem isn't going to go away until Christianity is eventually banned in the US.
 

adumbrodeus

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I still disagree that it is in the constitution. I know it's in a letter between Jefferson and Adams but nothing about it in the constitution.
And what of my reasoning is incorrect?

Quote the section, explain the error then move on, don't just blindly say, "I think you're wrong". I assert that it's definition is in the Constitution, argue against that point.




Essentially what it's boiling down to is that no one is going to be happy. If you remove God, than our country has an atheist bias and blah blah blah. I don't completely understand why it's such a big deal, it personally pisses me off when people get in such a huff.
Debate my points, I asserted that this isn't an example of an atheist bias.


And it's a big deal because the integrity of seperation of church and state is what protects our various religious organizations from potential government tyranny, that includes all denominations of Christianity.






This problem isn't going to go away until Christianity is eventually banned in the US.
There is no indication that this is going to be occurring, you believe that this will come in the future, support it with evidence and logical arguments.
 

AltF4

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I still disagree that it is in the constitution. I know it's in a letter between Jefferson and Adams but nothing about it in the constitution.
So Pythag, you've never heard of the establishment nor free exercise clauses? Well, unfortunately for you, you're wrong. It doesn't matter what you seem to disagree about. Do a little research. (Here's a hint: Google "establishment clause")

Essentially what it's boiling down to is that no one is going to be happy. If you remove God, than our country has an atheist bias and blah blah blah. I don't completely understand why it's such a big deal, it personally pisses me off when people get in such a huff.
This problem isn't going to go away until Christianity is eventually banned in the US.
Slippery slope argument and Straw Man argument. Nobody's arguing for christianity to be banned. Quite to the contrary, we are arguing for a government without religious bias.

By the way, this isn't the pool room. This is the debate hall. Don't fling argument fallacies around and expect for them to go unnoticed.

EDIT: Oh, adumbrodeus just beat me to it. Oh well.
 

Gamer4Fire

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I'm still trying to see how a non-reference gives an atheist bias to the pledge.
 

halfDemon

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I still disagree that it is in the constitution. I know it's in a letter between Jefferson and Adams but nothing about it in the constitution.
Essentially what it's boiling down to is that no one is going to be happy. If you remove God, than our country has an atheist bias and blah blah blah. I don't completely understand why it's such a big deal, it personally pisses me off when people get in such a huff.
This problem isn't going to go away until Christianity is eventually banned in the US.
It is in the constitution. There is nothing to disagree.

By removing "under God", no bias towards aetheism is formed. It is called taking a neutral stance. We are removing "under God", not adding "under no God".

It is a big deal. It's clear brain washing and the involvement of, not just religion, but specific religion within the education system. That is a very big deal.

Why would we ban a religion? Your argumentative points, or lack there of, make it pretty hard to logically reason with you.
 

Sandy

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I don't think the Supreme Court has decided the case yet. They only heard the arguments for and against. They haven't deliberated the issue yet.

What people don't seem to notice is that a tiny minority of Americans are stripping rights and freedoms from a majority of Americans, not through representation, not through the election process, buy by lawsuit. The Supreme Court is suppose to decide if a law that Congress makes fits within the framework of the Constitution, but these extremist groups and individuals have figured out how to talk circles around the original intent of many of our laws and Constitutional protections, and used the system to take things away from all of us.

The first Amendment was ment to prevent the estrablishment of an "Official Church of The United States"; it was not ment to prevent people from excercizing their religious beliefs in their everyday lives. Over the years, athiests have systematically, stripped God from our everyday lives. Private businesses have nothing to do with government, but you can't talk about God in those places either.

This is because of Case Law, not any law the Congress passed, nor any provision in the Constitution. The Supreme Court is suppose to decide if a law is unconstitutional, not to create law themselves. What they do is legislate from the court room and THAT is unconstitutional, because it is law created without representation. It also violates the Separation of Powers.
 

Eor

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Sandtiger, give me one example of you not being able to exercise your religious beliefs in your everyday life.
 

adumbrodeus

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What people don't seem to notice is that a tiny minority of Americans are stripping rights and freedoms from a majority of Americans, not through representation, not through the election process, buy by lawsuit. The Supreme Court is suppose to decide if a law that Congress makes fits within the framework of the Constitution, but these extremist groups and individuals have figured out how to talk circles around the original intent of many of our laws and Constitutional protections, and used the system to take things away from all of us.
Original intent is bunk, what matters is the words on the page.

The government not being explicitly religious strips away nobody's rights, it merely protects everyone's.

The first Amendment was ment to prevent the estrablishment of an "Official Church of The United States"; it was not ment to prevent people from excercizing their religious beliefs in their everyday lives. Over the years, athiests have systematically, stripped God from our everyday lives. Private businesses have nothing to do with government, but you can't talk about God in those places either.
"Meant" and "did" are two totally separate things, if that was what was meant, they should've written it and forgotten about the Free Exercise clause, the clause which REALLY sounds the death kneel for mixing of Church and State. It's "respecting an establishment of religion", not "establishing a state religion".

BIG DIFFERENCE, the former forbids even the appearance of a state-supported religion (since they respect the establishment), while the latter just prevents an official religion.

That and private business does not have to refrain from mentioning God, wal-mart does it all the time, and I'd love to see how my local "Good News" religious bookstore operates with such a restriction... They are only prevented from discriminating on the basis of religion in their hiring pool, and it's not just religion, it's gender, race, and many other factors, and it has nothing to do with the establishment or free exercise clauses.



Furthermore, IT'S NOT JUST ATHEISTS! I am a firm and devout Catholic, and I welcome every additional safeguard taken to protect separation of Church and State. About the majority of Christians in the US feel similarly, though not as strongly as I do because they don't know how important it is in protecting individual Christian groups, and Christians in certain areas from current and future persecution because they don't know history, yet they still tacitly support it.


IT IS YOU WHO IS PRETENDING TO PRESENT THE MAJORITY AS HAVING A MINORITY OPINION!


Nobody is forbidding you from practicing your religious beliefs, they are FORBIDDING THE GOVERNMENT FROM PRACTICING YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, big difference.



This is because of Case Law, not any law the Congress passed, nor any provision in the Constitution. The Supreme Court is suppose to decide if a law is unconstitutional, not to create law themselves. What they do is legislate from the court room and THAT is unconstitutional, because it is law created without representation. It also violates the Separation of Powers.
They do not legislate, they INTERPRET the law, however their interpretation has the force of Constitutional law itself because it is a legally binding interpretation, and if you don't believe me, reread article III of the Constitution where they are granted this power.

So, no, it is not legislation from the bench, it is merely interpreting law, and if you understand anything of Stare Decisis, you'll know that by their nature, judicial interpretations of the force of the law they interpret, otherwise there would be no way to solve legal questions.

And that, that is the Court's check on the Judicial and Executive Branches, without it they'd be a powerless institution.



So, in essence you have a very malformed sense of what "the tail wagging the dog" constitutes since you are attempting it, and you have no understanding of how law works, in both how to interpret and in the judicial process. Have a nice day.
 

snex

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Furthermore, IT'S NOT JUST ATHEISTS! I am a firm and devout Catholic...
in fact, most cases involving church-state separation are brought by either catholics or jews. the only notable ones brought by atheists are the madelin murray o'hair one and the pledge one brought by michael newdow. atheists have relatively little power when it comes to these kinds of things, and both catholics and jews know what its like to historically be under protestant rule.

take for example the issue about having the ten commandments on/in government buildings... there is actually no authoritative list of "THE ten commandments" in the bible. catholics, jews, and protestants all label and number them differently. but what gets written on these monuments that go into courthouses? why, the protestant ones of course!
 
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