Priority Learning for Link...

[KratosAurion192]

Ok so I have to explain why I'm making a thread for this situation,

In Melee my GF was trying to learn Pichu, and the from the transition from Melee to Brawl she was also play TP, so she is all for link right now, and she has decided to stick with him until she can get the basics of him down. I'm making this thread to generally discuss what my fellow Link players would consider the "basic steps" to becoming a decent link main.

I'm debating what she should focus on first, what is absolutly essential for a link to do. for this I was thinking of spending a lot of time learning projectiles and how to be a decent camper. Anyone will force Link to pull up his little tunic if he doesn't send stuff their way constantly, so I think learning to projectiles and proper spam is "Step 1" how things should be learned....

From there... what next? Mindgames, seting up for finishers, More spam? I'm totally stumped on how to teach any kind of fundamentals to someone while I'm right next to them. I figure this can act as a guide soon as well....

thanks in advace for any help given....

 

[takeurlife2]

teach her the zair, hella useful for spacing someone away from you.

 

[Crooked Crow]

teach her camping and how to use projectiles and spam well, arrow canceling
teach her defensive options
obvious ones like shielding, side stepping
and then ones like perfect shielding > dsmash, up+b out of shield, up-smash out of shield
teach her about spacing with jabs, tilts, z-air

 

[ImpactAR]

If it's a victory she's looking for I think it's best to do what Link is good at. Covering Link's strengths and weakness with her so she understand what would give Link is an edge is key.

You're on the right track, IMO. Teach her how to spam effectively. She'll need to know the paths of the Link's projectiles and some good projectile patterns. Next would be some defensive and countering tactics that forces the opponent to back off. Link has a poor approach so it's not good to approach unless a KO is almost a certain.

Check out my guide for more details.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163476

 

[Aurashade]

Learn that if she ever gets infinite'd that she has to punch the guy in the face, other then that, use my own invented tech of gale guarding (actually, I don't know if she wants to know such an advanced technique). If not, stick with bombs and projectiles.

 

[Deleted member]

1) dont spam Fsmash
2) learn to use the fair
3) up b out of sheild
4) ZAC to dair
5) dbl bair
6) nair edge guard

and the most important one
-Don't play MetaKnight

 

[Ark098]

listen to you all. dont bother with advanced techniques if all you know about links so far is how to spam!

teach the basic link spam, then defense tactics should come next (lyk when to shield grab, spot dodge, roll, up air, jab and spacing etc) because you can successfully win a game against some characters with a good spam, defense, and a lil luck. then reliable counters. THEN once she can play counter link ok, teach her abt zair approaches, a few obvious mindgames and a few tricks lyk QDA and wateva.

cant be more specific cos i wudnt kno how to teach link eitha ^^but definitely dont dive into advance techniqes first thing. thats lyk watching sum beginner melee player learning to bomb jump before learning to combo

 

[KratosAurion192]

So spam game it is, then... I'll bump after I get a chance to work with her a bit...

 

[Aurashade]

listen to you all. dont bother with advanced techniques if all you know about links so far is how to spam!

teach the basic link spam, then defense tactics should come next (lyk when to shield grab, spot dodge, roll, up air, jab and spacing etc) because you can successfully win a game against some characters with a good spam, defense, and a lil luck. then reliable counters. THEN once she can play counter link ok, teach her abt zair approaches, a few obvious mindgames and a few tricks lyk QDA and wateva.

cant be more specific cos i wudnt kno how to teach link eitha ^^but definitely dont dive into advance techniqes first thing. thats lyk watching sum beginner melee player learning to bomb jump before learning to combo

shut up my god

 

[Maikeru17]

Basic tips for starting up with Link:
Don't just learn to spam, that's stupid. Learn how to use the projectiles CORRECTLY and EFFECTIVELY. There's a huge difference between spamming and using your projectiles.
Watch videos to get an idea of what other Link players do in certain situations, what moves they use, etc., and learn to adapt to the match using those moves.
Link's not that hard to learn, you just need to not be a ****** when doing so.
Understanding Link's character is the most important part of playing Link.

listen to you all. dont bother with advanced techniques if all you know about links so far is how to spam!

teach the basic link spam, then defense tactics should come next (lyk when to shield grab, spot dodge, roll, up air, jab and spacing etc) because you can successfully win a game against some characters with a good spam, defense, and a lil luck. then reliable counters. THEN once she can play counter link ok, teach her abt zair approaches, a few obvious mindgames and a few tricks lyk QDA and wateva.

cant be more specific cos i wudnt kno how to teach link eitha ^^but definitely dont dive into advance techniqes first thing. thats lyk watching sum beginner melee player learning to bomb jump before learning to combo

LOLBAD.
Don't spot dodge, it's a bad habbit.
Don't roll, either. It tends to be an even worse habbit.

And seriously, what the **** is a "lyk"?

-Nox`

 

[CKaiser]

Teach her to spam, next don't teach her to shield grab, link's grab is sooooooo slow and soooooo ****ty no one not stupid will get shield grabbed, rather ftilt out of shield or like jump neutral air or fair if anything. oh and teach her to projectile spam and projectile spam, maybe projectile spam... projectile spam.


projectile spam seriously it works

 

[Kikuichimonji]

LOLBAD.
Don't spot dodge, it's a bad habbit.
Don't roll, either. It tends to be an even worse habbit.

And seriously, what the **** is a "lyk"?

-Nox`

Right, because the good Link players never spot dodge or roll. I mean, here (link) Deva doesn't roll at 00:26, 00:34-00:38, 00:45, or 1:00. And he certainly doesn't spot-dodge at 00:44 or 00:51. Sorry for the biting sarcasm, but saying "don't use a technique that will help you dodge attacks and possibly put space between you and your opponent" seems outright silly to me. I agree that most noobs get into the habit of doing it far too often and then don't know how to follow it up, but once they get punished for it enough, they'll stop. Both rolling and spot-dodging are useful.

Telling someone to watch the best players when they're starting is like asking someone to do calculus right after learning to multiply. The fact of the matter is that in order to get good enough to even understand why something is useful, you need to get your hands dirty and get some practice. Then, look at what the best players do, and figure out why they do it, and then incorporate it. Actually playing the game with whatever limited understanding you have is the most important part of getting better.

My major suggestion is to have her play matches, maybe against a CPU if you can't stomach toning it down, although it's obviously a lot better to play a real person (it's important for her to feel like she has a chance competitively). Then save the match, and go through it with her. If she makes a monumental mess-up, then point it out. Focus on one or two things every few matches. For example, learning to shield-grab dash-attacks would be a good goal. She has to acquire these techniques slowly enough that she's able to put them into her "muscle memory," so that she doesn't even have to think about them.

tl;dr: You can't teach someone a game like Brawl by explaining techniques ad nauseum. You teach them the controls, give them a few strategy tips to give them ideas, and let them learn themselves. Then you can work on ATs, if you really care. From what you've said, I doubt she does, and just wants to get good enough to not embarrass herself.

 

[Eten]

Just two things.

Optimizing projectile spam. It's not too hard. The boom is the fastest and easy to hit with, so it gets thrown the most. Be in the middle of some other action on the return though, so you can avoid the catching the boomerang animation- like by be in the middle of shooting your bow. Then mix it up! Shorthop pull out a bomb, AIRDODGE into ATTACK for a Zair without tossing the bomb, shorthop backwards and toss the boomerang, toss the bomb, then shoot the bow just before you catch. The *hardest* thing to learn is a full jump double arrow with the second being an arrow cancel.

Getting good at the basics. That's all. Timing and spacing, dodging and attacking, and recovery. For this, just play. Brawl is pretty natural, one of the strengths of this game, and being good at it is simple yet still really important.

 

[Maikeru17]

Right, because the good Link players never spot dodge or roll. I mean, here (link) Deva doesn't roll at 00:26, 00:34-00:38, 00:45, or 1:00. And he certainly doesn't spot-dodge at 00:44 or 00:51. Sorry for the biting sarcasm, but saying "don't use a technique that will help you dodge attacks and possibly put space between you and your opponent" seems outright silly to me. I agree that most noobs get into the habit of doing it far too often and then don't know how to follow it up, but once they get punished for it enough, they'll stop. Both rolling and spot-dodging are useful.

Sorry for the biting TROLL post.
Rolling is an awful habit to get into, and should only be used when ABSOLUTELY NEEDED.
Rolling WILL get you punished otherwise, unless the other player is plain bad.
Same goes for spot-dodging.

Telling someone to watch the best players when they're starting is like asking someone to do calculus right after learning to multiply. The fact of the matter is that in order to get good enough to even understand why something is useful, you need to get your hands dirty and get some practice. Then, look at what the best players do, and figure out why they do it, and then incorporate it. Actually playing the game with whatever limited understanding you have is the most important part of getting better.

I think you missed the part where I said "to get an idea". I never said "stdy deva n u get beterr lollol". I also said to "watch videos". I said nothing of "the best players".
I then said to learn to adapt using those moves. Knowing what works helps when learning - I like knowing the methods of which I should practice, and through practice I learn why those methods are effective. Learning why X is effective for A could lead to putting X to use at C because A is similar to C.
And I sure as **** didn't say to not play the game and only watch videos.

-Nox`

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Sorry for the biting TROLL post.
Rolling is an awful habit to get into, and should only be used when ABSOLUTELY NEEDED.
Rolling WILL get you punished otherwise, unless the other player is plain bad.
Same goes for spot-dodging.

I really don't understand your argument here. I mean, I already demonstrated that even one of the best Link players uses rolling and spot-dodging, right? You said:

Don't spot dodge, it's a bad habbit.
Don't roll, either. It tends to be an even worse habbit.

Unless you are arguing that A - the video I brought out was a 'corner case' (It was the first video I pulled that had Deva, so it is possible) or B - Deva was using Link wrong in that video by spot-dodging and rolling, because they are poor tactics to rely on, then I can't see how you can defend "don't roll/spot-dodge."

Yeah, my sarcasm's a nasty habit, and perhaps it was unwarranted, but I wasn't trolling. I apologize.

I think you missed the part where I said "to get an idea". I never said "stdy deva n u get beterr lollol". I also said to "watch videos". I said nothing of "the best players".
I then said to learn to adapt using those moves. Knowing what works helps when learning - I like knowing the methods of which I should practice, and through practice I learn why those methods are effective.

See, I disagree with this method. If you begin with a list of effective moves/setups and say "use these," you won't know why they are better, because I would argue that it leads to less adaptability. Figuratively "throwing a move/approach out of the playbook" just means that your opponent never has to even think about it. Also, there are some Brawl strategies that are worth examining, if only for knowing how to beat them.

For example, countering a rollspammer requires a far more liberal use of dsmashes, dash attacks, etcetera. It's not a good strategy, but if you're only used to playing the best strategies for characters, then it could throw you off the first time because you don't have a robust personal knowledge of the character.

In addition, learning based on set techniques assumes that the metagame is a stable environment. If you learn A is always the best counter for B, but then someone figures out how to counter A with C, then you could have no idea what to fall back to.

I'm just saying that trying to mimic other players will only get you so far. If you play enough, against good people, then you should eventually just know what attacks/defenses will work, even if you've never seen the situation before in your life. Now, knowing ATs /'combos' will increase your field of options, and often change what you decide to do, but that initial evaluation process is what separates the "What how'd I lose I wavedashed!" crowd from everyone else.

Learning why X is effective for A could lead to putting X to use at C because A is similar to C.

I agree. However, often the differences are more important than the similarities. Understanding whether or not a situation is similar enough to act in the same way is the key.

And I sure as **** didn't say to not play the game and only watch videos.

I wasn't trying to say you did at all. In fact, only my first paragraph was a response to yours. I was moreso just trying to warn OP against being too technical. I really think we're just arguing semantics at this point.

 

[Maikeru17]

The "troll" post was mine. D: I'm the troll. Just to uh. Set that straight.

When I originally said "don't roll", I meant "don't spam rolls stupidly". Not rolling is dumb, but rolling when not needed is also dumb. When a roll will get you out of danger, you roll, there's nothing else to it.

I dunno. That's just the way I learn stuff. I like to know the how-to's; I'm a fast learner, so I usually understand the reason for things as they're shown to me. I'm also a good analyst. :[
I also wasn't trying to be very helpful when I posted. o_O I could've posted paragraphs on basic tips for Link, but I didn't. TBO, I think I was really angry that night.

Anyway.

Naturally, understanding ANYTHING is the key to using it. I seriously didn't mean "whenever you see them roll, dsmash!"; I meant "see how when he rolls, dsmash comes out and does blahblahblah..."
Watching videos does nothing. Analyzing videos is where it's at. For the majority of "growing up" in Melee, since I knew no good players in my area, watching videos and analyzing EVERYTHING was ALL I could do in terms of practice vs real people. It helped a lot, one of my now-pro friends was very amazed at how far I had gone on just videos and barely any real practice.
This method is very one-sided, I must say.


o_O Oops.

-Nox`

 

[Kikuichimonji]

The "troll" post was mine. D: I'm the troll. Just to uh. Set that straight.

Oh. I feel kinda silly now. Sorry, it flew right over my head.

 

[KratosAurion192]

I'm not going to show her anyone else right now, she does fine with getting her projectiles out on the field, she just needs to master controlling the field with them now. Once she can grasp the whole theory behind that, I'll make my way back here...

 

[Aurashade]

Sorry for the biting TROLL post.
Rolling is an awful habit to get into, and should only be used when ABSOLUTELY NEEDED.
Rolling WILL get you punished otherwise, unless the other player is plain bad.
Same goes for spot-dodging.

Well, to be completely technical you won't always get punished for rolling away from a physical attack, due to the minuscule lag that every attack has you won't be hit half the time.

Also, if spot dodging is what I think it is (down shield), then you're wrong. Spot dodging is very helpful in most situations when you're opponent is trying to approach you, or if you're trying to gain ground without moving back or shielding. SO I don't know what you're getting at there by saying it sucks, because if they both do, then there's no way of getting away from an attack.

 

[Maikeru17]

Well, to be completely technical you won't always get punished for rolling away from a physical attack, due to the minuscule lag that every attack has you won't be hit half the time.

Also, if spot dodging is what I think it is (down shield), then you're wrong. Spot dodging is very helpful in most situations when you're opponent is trying to approach you, or if you're trying to gain ground without moving back or shielding. SO I don't know what you're getting at there by saying it sucks, because if they both do, then there's no way of getting away from an attack.

When I originally said "don't roll", I meant "don't spam rolls stupidly". Not rolling is dumb, but rolling when not needed is also dumb. When a roll will get you out of danger, you roll, there's nothing else to it.

Technically, rolling won't always get you punished ('cause you can roll and they'll be too far away to do anything about it, etc.), but using a roll when something much better could've been used, will usually get you punished for it. WarriorKnight is good at punishing rolls with his Boozer.

"Dodging" as a whole doesn't suck. Spot dodging can get you out of sticky situations, but really, sometimes it's best to take the hit than to spot dodge (especially in Brawl), 'cause more times than not, you're being grabbed out of that spot-dodge. I'd rather not be grabbed by Falco, especially when under 40%.

 

[Ark098]

LOLBAD.
Don't spot dodge, it's a bad habbit.
Don't roll, either. It tends to be an even worse habbit.

And seriously, what the **** is a "lyk"?

-Nox`

LOLSORRY.
Whatever, but in my defense I didn't say "SPAM ROLLS AND SPOT DODGES" or that they're usefull. I said learn when to use them. If you think that's never then that's what you'd teach said girl. You're right that rolling in most situations is probably less efficient than walking or attacking so you win but I spot dodge Marth shfairs and pull off attacks or grabs every time. Not saying I'm the man, just that spot dodges have their applications.

 

[Maikeru17]

LOLSORRY.
Whatever, but in my defense I didn't say "SPAM ROLLS AND SPOT DODGES" or that they're usefull. I said learn when to use them. If you think that's never then that's what you'd teach said girl. You're right that rolling in most situations is probably less efficient than walking or attacking so you win but I spot dodge Marth shfairs and pull off attacks or grabs every time. Not saying I'm the man, just that spot dodges have their applications.

Read the post above yours.

 

[Ark098]

good good. point taken.