Practicing Aerial Movement

[deadPhoenix]

Hi all,

I just wanted to know if you had any tips on how to practice aerial movement as Jiggs. I put in 2-10 hours of work in every day with my movement, matchup, and tech practice. I've been doing this for around 6 months now, since I started playing Jiggs. However, there are certain things I still can't get consistent for the life of me, no matter how much I practice. Some examples are, but are not limited to:

-Fast falling aerials while still moving at an angle, HBox style, in order to move quickly
-L cancelling aerials that land at an angle (aka ALL of Jigg's aerials except maybe dair)
-L cancelling dair

I feel like with the amount of work I put into this character, I should be improving and getting consistent. However, it's not happening. When I mained Marth and Falco, I was able to get my L cancels and fast falls down fairly quickly. I do not understand why I can't with Puff, despite much experimenting, dedicated work, and studying. I'm beginning to feel like I'm just plain doing something wrong. What I've been doing these past weeks that has been working much better, however I still can't get 100% with is:

-L cancelling with Z, and sometimes L, instead of always L cancelling with L
-All aerials with Z except falling upair and dair

If anybody has some input for me, that would be fantastic. I do so much studying with matchups, combos, etc. however at this point whenever I play I get extremely frustrated because I can't apply what I've learned and what I've watched players like HBox do because I can't be consistent with my movement. It is by far the biggest thing holding back my play and I would love to work it out faster if it's possible. If not, I will continue to grind it out.

Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance!

-Fenix

 

[Massive]

Jigglypuff isn't a character that benefits greatly from solo practice as much as others, in fact practicing L-cancels on your aerials can be considered developing a bad habit, since you shouldn't be landing with an aerial anyway.

Here are some of the things I practice solo and how I practice them (it's not only aerials, I guess).

Ledge Cancelling
Ledge cancelling gives you your jumps back and cancels whatever animation you're in. On a stage with platforms ledge cancels allow you to stay airborne and mobile indefinitely.
How to practice it?
Method 1: "Burnouts". Jump with an aerial as many times as you feasibly can and then ledge cancel it and keep going. You will learn how your aerial momentum interacts with your facing direction as well as the attack you use.
Method 2: "Ledgeslippers". Jump, throw out a late aerial, and use the edge of the stage to cancel your aerial, and then immediately perform another one. Start high and low and vary it a bit. You need to intuitively understand when you aerials will cancel. I also like to do a variation of this by grabbing the ledge > drop > turnaround jump > dair > ledgecancel fair.
Try to practice both methods, they are both useful for different purposes in their own way.

Platform Waveland
A very old technique, this simply involves wavelanding near the edge of a platform, off of the platform, to refresh your jumps. It is a derivative of ledgecancelling, and is pretty self-explanatory.

Landing without an aerial out
This is one of the most important things you can do to prevent getting dashdance grabbed or fox usmashed.
How to practice it?
Practice a string of aerials and punctuate it with a nair or landing when the animation is over. This is harder than it sounds, but even L-cancelling a move like fair can end with you getting grabbed or u-smashed.

Keep away, Keep alive
I just started doing this one recently. When you are at higher %s, and your opponent is at a low % many characters can simply crouch-cancel one of your aerials and punish KO you with a smash (the best example of this is fox), the point of this exercise to get used to getting inbetween their punishing attacks by learning their timing.
How to practice it?
I will set myself up at a high % and either have a partner or 20XX make a fox usmash repeatedly. My objective is to land as close as possible to him either in frames where he's vulnerable or in a way that I won't get hit. I will also try to connect aerials in a way that I can't get instantly usmashed afterwards, which means trading nair or close fair/bair/dair/uair is a no go.

Gimp Practice
One of my favorite things to do to spacies is to b-throw > bair them. It is a super easy KO and it works at very low %s. Most of the spacies I play are completely aware that nair will beat illusion if their spacing isn't prefect, so many (especially foxes) will go for a high firefox recovery, knowing it's hard to space the bair to intercept it if they are already moving. Fortunately b-throw puts them into a spot where starting a firefox as high as possible is still hittable with bair.
How to practice it?
I practice b-throwing CPUs and then immediately double jump > bair to cover a high recovery spot. This works really well and trains a lot of spacies (and not spacies) to go for a lower recovery, which is much easier to punish.

Wall of Pain
This is another old tactic that is still super useful to practice. This works especially well with 20XX since the CPU will mix up their DI. You simply practice bair chaining or fair chain your opponent off the stage.
How to practice it?
Do a high throw or get your opponent high off the stage at a low-mid % (character dependent), and hit them with either a fair or a bair. Follow their DI and continue hitting them with fairs or bairs until they are in magnifier or dead. Wall of pain opportunities come up roughly once per match in my experience, and not dropping what is usually a reliable KO combo is pretty important.

Wavedash Out of Shield
This is an absolutely vital tactic to play puff well at a high level. The easiest way to practice it is either with 20XX or a partner.
How to practice it?
Have your opponent do a move that incurs shieldstun and then wavedash out of your shield as soon as it's over. In 20XX moves like falcon punch are great choices because they take long enough to execute that you will be able to get into position easily. You mostly want to practice landing and shielding the attack instead of just standing there and shielding it. This simulates real gameplay more accurately.
Variation: I have been practicing using buffered jumps (hold up on the c-stick while in lag frames) to get out of my shield on the first possible frame. I can waveland/wavedash out of it with about 50% efficiency right now, although sometimes I have enough frame advantage to simply jump away or aerial my opponent when they hit my shield (it works pretty well, actually!).

 

[aDavid4]

Massive pulls through again

 

[deadPhoenix]

Jigglypuff isn't a character that benefits greatly from solo practice as much as others, in fact practicing L-cancels on your aerials can be considered developing a bad habit, since you shouldn't be landing with an aerial anyway.

Here are some of the things I practice solo and how I practice them (it's not only aerials, I guess).

Ledge Cancelling
Ledge cancelling gives you your jumps back and cancels whatever animation you're in. On a stage with platforms ledge cancels allow you to stay airborne and mobile indefinitely.
How to practice it?
Method 1: "Burnouts". Jump with an aerial as many times as you feasibly can and then ledge cancel it and keep going. You will learn how your aerial momentum interacts with your facing direction as well as the attack you use.
Method 2: "Ledgeslippers". Jump, throw out a late aerial, and use the edge of the stage to cancel your aerial, and then immediately perform another one. Start high and low and vary it a bit. You need to intuitively understand when you aerials will cancel. I also like to do a variation of this by grabbing the ledge > drop > turnaround jump > dair > ledgecancel fair.
Try to practice both methods, they are both useful for different purposes in their own way.

Platform Waveland
A very old technique, this simply involves wavelanding near the edge of a platform, off of the platform, to refresh your jumps. It is a derivative of ledgecancelling, and is pretty self-explanatory.

Landing without an aerial out
This is one of the most important things you can do to prevent getting dashdance grabbed or fox usmashed.
How to practice it?
Practice a string of aerials and punctuate it with a nair or landing when the animation is over. This is harder than it sounds, but even L-cancelling a move like fair can end with you getting grabbed or u-smashed.

Keep away, Keep alive
I just started doing this one recently. When you are at higher %s, and your opponent is at a low % many characters can simply crouch-cancel one of your aerials and punish KO you with a smash (the best example of this is fox), the point of this exercise to get used to getting inbetween their punishing attacks by learning their timing.
How to practice it?
I will set myself up at a high % and either have a partner or 20XX make a fox usmash repeatedly. My objective is to land as close as possible to him either in frames where he's vulnerable or in a way that I won't get hit. I will also try to connect aerials in a way that I can't get instantly usmashed afterwards, which means trading nair or close fair/bair/dair/uair is a no go.

Gimp Practice
One of my favorite things to do to spacies is to b-throw > bair them. It is a super easy KO and it works at very low %s. Most of the spacies I play are completely aware that nair will beat illusion if their spacing isn't prefect, so many (especially foxes) will go for a high firefox recovery, knowing it's hard to space the bair to intercept it if they are already moving. Fortunately b-throw puts them into a spot where starting a firefox as high as possible is still hittable with bair.
How to practice it?
I practice b-throwing CPUs and then immediately double jump > bair to cover a high recovery spot. This works really well and trains a lot of spacies (and not spacies) to go for a lower recovery, which is much easier to punish.

Wall of Pain
This is another old tactic that is still super useful to practice. This works especially well with 20XX since the CPU will mix up their DI. You simply practice bair chaining or fair chain your opponent off the stage.
How to practice it?
Do a high throw or get your opponent high off the stage at a low-mid % (character dependent), and hit them with either a fair or a bair. Follow their DI and continue hitting them with fairs or bairs until they are in magnifier or dead. Wall of pain opportunities come up roughly once per match in my experience, and not dropping what is usually a reliable KO combo is pretty important.

Wavedash Out of Shield
This is an absolutely vital tactic to play puff well at a high level. The easiest way to practice it is either with 20XX or a partner.
How to practice it?
Have your opponent do a move that incurs shieldstun and then wavedash out of your shield as soon as it's over. In 20XX moves like falcon punch are great choices because they take long enough to execute that you will be able to get into position easily. You mostly want to practice landing and shielding the attack instead of just standing there and shielding it. This simulates real gameplay more accurately.
Variation: I have been practicing using buffered jumps (hold up on the c-stick while in lag frames) to get out of my shield on the first possible frame. I can waveland/wavedash out of it with about 50% efficiency right now, although sometimes I have enough frame advantage to simply jump away or aerial my opponent when they hit my shield (it works pretty well, actually!).

Hey Massive,

Thanks so much for the reply first off. I really appreciate all of your advice.

I have to disagree completely though that practicing L cancelling is developing a bad habit, as if you watch any HBox match, you'll see him poke with L cancelled bairs, fairs, and you will see him combo with bair to L cancelled up air all the time. You will also so him use L cancelled dair frequently. I agree that auto cancelling whenever possible, and practicing as such, is a good thing to do, however you will definitely have to L cancel things quite often and therefore it is good to practice it. If you don't L cancel and aerial that after poking, or trying to combo, you will be punished. This is the problem I'm having, which is why I've come here for advice on how to further remedy this specific issue through practice, as well as my issue with fast falling aerials consistently.

While you did not address my specific issue, I will still thank you for the thorough response, as there are many great things to practice here that you've mentioned, and all of the things I don't practice already (specifically where you touched on with "Keep Away, Keep Alive"), I will incorporate in my daily personal practice from now on.

However, if you do have any further insight on my specific issue, that would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Massive]

However, if you do have any further insight on my specific issue, that would be much appreciated.

Oh my bad, sorry.

You are likely missing your L-cancels because you're misjudging puff's fallspeed when she's fastfalling. She does not move nearly as fast as you'd think, and the L-cancel window is only 6 frames.

If you're hitting someone's shield, please note that while it wont change the frame requirement to L-cancel, it will change how long it takes for you to hit the ground, so there are separate timings for hitting someone's shield vs. not. This is especially exacerbated by puff's low fall speed.

As far as L-cancelling dair: the trick here is to envision that you're only cancelling that last hit before it goes into the ground. Also keep in mind that you can repeatedly hit Z and l-cancel anything as long as you hit it at least once in those lovely 6 frames. Alternatively, something that also helps a lot of people is partially pressing the trigger so they can do it a bit faster. It took me a while (and 20XX) before I was able to reliably L-cancel dair, but ultimately the deciding factor was just beginning to truly understand puff's weird fallspeed.

I have to disagree completely though that practicing L cancelling is developing a bad habit, as if you watch any HBox match, you'll see him poke with L cancelled bairs, fairs, and you will see him combo with bair to L cancelled up air all the time. You will also so him use L cancelled dair frequently.

To set the record straight, you see hbox poke with autocancelled bairs a lot. You can shorthop and bair without fastfalling and land totally free and clear of lag. I can't actually remember him l-cancelling a fair against a fox and not getting punished pretty hard for it.

Regardless, I'm not saying that L-cancelling isn't important or useful, because it is. I'm saying that you should not be in the habit of just grounding your aerials because you can l-cancel them and get half the lag frames (which is still enough to get punished bad). Also, a lot of Hbox's tactics are only effective due to his highly formed understanding of spacing, game flow, and stage control. Unless you've got those too, just emulating the mechanics of what he's doing without the understanding will never really make you much better.

More generally, seeing how a play happens is pretty easy, understanding why that play was made and being able to intuitively know when to make it yourself is a completely different matter that's only really developed through experience.

All that being said, the strategies I'm advocating are things that occur in matches frequently enough that having muscle memory for them is super helpful. The list is by no means complete, I just thought practicing these things might be more helpful to your game than worrying about l-cancels that don't really come up as much as you'd imagine.

 

[deadPhoenix]

Oh my bad, sorry.

You are likely missing your L-cancels because you're misjudging puff's fallspeed when she's fastfalling. She does not move nearly as fast as you'd think, and the L-cancel window is only 6 frames.

If you're hitting someone's shield, please note that while it wont change the frame requirement to L-cancel, it will change how long it takes for you to hit the ground, so there are separate timings for hitting someone's shield vs. not. This is especially exacerbated by puff's low fall speed.

As far as L-cancelling dair: the trick here is to envision that you're only cancelling that last hit before it goes into the ground. Also keep in mind that you can repeatedly hit Z and l-cancel anything as long as you hit it at least once in those lovely 6 frames. Alternatively, something that also helps a lot of people is partially pressing the trigger so they can do it a bit faster. It took me a while (and 20XX) before I was able to reliably L-cancel dair, but ultimately the deciding factor was just beginning to truly understand puff's weird fallspeed.


To set the record straight, you see hbox poke with autocancelled bairs a lot. You can shorthop and bair without fastfalling and land totally free and clear of lag. I can't actually remember him l-cancelling a fair against a fox and not getting punished pretty hard for it.

Regardless, I'm not saying that L-cancelling isn't important or useful, because it is. I'm saying that you should not be in the habit of just grounding your aerials because you can l-cancel them and get half the lag frames (which is still enough to get punished bad). Also, a lot of Hbox's tactics are only effective due to his highly formed understanding of spacing, game flow, and stage control. Unless you've got those too, just emulating the mechanics of what he's doing without the understanding will never really make you much better.

More generally, seeing how a play happens is pretty easy, understanding why that play was made and being able to intuitively know when to make it yourself is a completely different matter that's only really developed through experience.

All that being said, the strategies I'm advocating are things that occur in matches frequently enough that having muscle memory for them is super helpful. The list is by no means complete, I just thought practicing these things might be more helpful to your game than worrying about l-cancels that don't really come up as much as you'd imagine.

Can't disagree with anything here. Practicing all of those things are quite helpful. I've actually incorporated all but what I mentioned before in my practice already, which I'm now actually pretty proud about considering somebody as experienced as yourself has basically reinforced the fact that I'm practicing the correct things.

Also, thank you for the insight on the L cancelling issue. Her fall speed is super weird, especially if you're weaving and you're falling from a second or third jump. Platforms complicate things as well of course.

And, of course, seeing how a play happens and understanding why are completely different, which is why I have my handy dandy Smash note taking notebook and break down the same matches over and over again until I understand why what happened happened, why certain things were punished, what decisions were made, etc. I picked that up from my good friend SleepyK. He shoved those methods down my throat, can't thank him enough for that.

All of this discussion has been extremely beneficial to me. Thanks again Massive, I really appreciate your insight and your guidance.

 

[chrbir5]

i do circles on my control stick in both directions to make sure it's even.

I also do ledge drop -> instant arial (no idea what they're actually called)

Try doing literal circles in the air when fighting people sometimes.

weaving practice can come from flying in with a fair but fade back. try it fade back up, fade back down, fade back flat, etc.

I have a lot of problem with this too, but this is what i've been trying recently.

 

[krazyzyko]

If you suspect you might miss an L cancel, mash Z a couple of times and you'll get it.