kyoskue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2007
- Messages
- 234
- Location
- still stuck in the Ginnungagap
- NNID
- Kyoskue
- 3DS FC
- 4468-0977-7278
So I was looking around for someone capable of making videos to help me out with this since its a little difficult to explain with just text, but I guess that I'm stuck doing just that. Hopefully somebody takes this seriously and makes a tutorial video.
In any case, here goes...
Edit:
Related videoes can be seen here:
Video 1
Video 2
Videos by Iggy524 and Nyani Desuka respectively, links provided by moofpi.
Before patch 1.04 Ike and Palutena were both capable of a "Sliding Counter" exploit that took their dashing momentum and added it to their Counter, allowing them to slide several character lengths while in Counter state. When it was patched out most were quick to think that was the end of it, but its far from over.
You see, it turns out that the Sliding Counter's mechanics were directly tied into the frame of animation that the character was showing when initiating the special. In Ike's case, if Counter was activated while his legs were fully extended mid-run then he would get the slide. It would also happen if activated JUST as his legs started to cross. Something about these two parts of his running animation was messing with his momentum.
So what? Sliding Counter is gone, so what does it matter?
Well, honestly I'm not sure.
I've tried it out with a number of other attacks, and from what I can tell whatever was causing the weirdness in Counter's momentum has bizarre effects on all sorts of other attacks.
For example, most neutral specials (such as Zerosuit Samus' Paralyzer, Luigi's Fireball, and Ike's Eruption, just to name a few) will have the character turn around but continue to slide with their original momentum if you try to B Reverse at either of these two points of animation. Basically they'll perform a Turnaround B rather than the standard B Reverse, with a longer slide than normal.
Meanwhile Link's fast walk pivot grab can act either like a regular B Reverse or a Turnaround B when done in a similar manner.
It can even cause a Turnaround B for some forward specials, such as Ike's Quickdraw, though the timing is incredibly strict because you have to preemptively let the stick go to neutral and perform the B Reverse when the animation SHOULD be showing.
I'm sure that there are tons of moves that can make use of this, but considering that I'm still in the testing stages of this I don't have any real applications for it yet.
I may not have explained it very well,so here are some notes that I have sent to others regarding it:
Visually Aided Text Explanation
Discussions with Another Player
It doesn't seem to work on characters with prone neutral Bs, such as Captain Falcon's, Bowser Jr.'s, and Villager's; basically any special that completely negates ground movement isn't compatible.
Mr. Game&Watch's is also easy, just time the B-Reverse to the start of the second running animation in his dash.
This technique also works with numerous up, down, and possibly side specials as well.
TLDR version:
When running/fast walking try to B Reverse either when your character's legs are either fully extended or just about to cross.
You may be surprised at the result.
For the original Sliding Counter Topic that I made:
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-have-figured-out-the-sliding-counter.375859/
--------
*Upon further investigation I have found evidence proving that I am the first (at least out of the two videos provided and my own threads and conversations) to have discovered these, but don't really care.
Therefore I'm going to give them the incredibly uninspired but unbiased names of "Running B Reverse" and "Running B Turnaround" (RoBbeR and RoBoT respectively).
In any case, here goes...
Edit:
Related videoes can be seen here:
Video 1
Video 2
Videos by Iggy524 and Nyani Desuka respectively, links provided by moofpi.
Before patch 1.04 Ike and Palutena were both capable of a "Sliding Counter" exploit that took their dashing momentum and added it to their Counter, allowing them to slide several character lengths while in Counter state. When it was patched out most were quick to think that was the end of it, but its far from over.
You see, it turns out that the Sliding Counter's mechanics were directly tied into the frame of animation that the character was showing when initiating the special. In Ike's case, if Counter was activated while his legs were fully extended mid-run then he would get the slide. It would also happen if activated JUST as his legs started to cross. Something about these two parts of his running animation was messing with his momentum.
So what? Sliding Counter is gone, so what does it matter?
Well, honestly I'm not sure.
I've tried it out with a number of other attacks, and from what I can tell whatever was causing the weirdness in Counter's momentum has bizarre effects on all sorts of other attacks.
For example, most neutral specials (such as Zerosuit Samus' Paralyzer, Luigi's Fireball, and Ike's Eruption, just to name a few) will have the character turn around but continue to slide with their original momentum if you try to B Reverse at either of these two points of animation. Basically they'll perform a Turnaround B rather than the standard B Reverse, with a longer slide than normal.
Meanwhile Link's fast walk pivot grab can act either like a regular B Reverse or a Turnaround B when done in a similar manner.
It can even cause a Turnaround B for some forward specials, such as Ike's Quickdraw, though the timing is incredibly strict because you have to preemptively let the stick go to neutral and perform the B Reverse when the animation SHOULD be showing.
I'm sure that there are tons of moves that can make use of this, but considering that I'm still in the testing stages of this I don't have any real applications for it yet.
I may not have explained it very well,so here are some notes that I have sent to others regarding it:
Visually Aided Text Explanation
Something else to take note of:
The closer you are to the exact timing (but still being off) will cause your B Reverse to have a shorter slide than usual.
What's happening is that the "turnaround" points (fully extended legs and just as they're crossing) act kind of like the number "0" (zero) on a line with both positive and negative numbers alongside it on their respective sides, but there's a catch:
Cross--------Stretch-------Cross
0-1-2-3-2-1-0-1-2-3-2-1-0
------------------------------
Its a loop, the first and third 0 are the feet crossing, and the second 0 is when the legs are extended.
If the 0's represent the points of the animation where a turnaround B happens then the 3 is a full B reverse slide, the 2 is an average B Reverse, and the 1 is a noticeably smaller B Reverse.
Ergo; if you try to get the turnaround B timing on the frame and barely miss it you will perform a very small sliding B Reverse instead. Getting way off (a 3) will net you a longer sliding B Reverse.
So if I got:
Cross--------Stretch-------Cross
0-1-2-3-2-1-0-1-2-3-2-1-0
---------X-------------------
my input here I would perform an average B Reverse, and would either need to wait slightly longer before I perform it, or pull it off earlier at the previous animation.
In practice you would want to time it something like this:
Cross--------Stretch-------Cross
0-1-2-3-2-1-0-1-2-3-2-1-0
RRRRRRRN-LB--------------
Hopefully the visuals and numbers make some manner of sense and don't just scare off people, heh.
The closer you are to the exact timing (but still being off) will cause your B Reverse to have a shorter slide than usual.
What's happening is that the "turnaround" points (fully extended legs and just as they're crossing) act kind of like the number "0" (zero) on a line with both positive and negative numbers alongside it on their respective sides, but there's a catch:
Cross--------Stretch-------Cross
0-1-2-3-2-1-0-1-2-3-2-1-0
------------------------------
Its a loop, the first and third 0 are the feet crossing, and the second 0 is when the legs are extended.
If the 0's represent the points of the animation where a turnaround B happens then the 3 is a full B reverse slide, the 2 is an average B Reverse, and the 1 is a noticeably smaller B Reverse.
Ergo; if you try to get the turnaround B timing on the frame and barely miss it you will perform a very small sliding B Reverse instead. Getting way off (a 3) will net you a longer sliding B Reverse.
So if I got:
Cross--------Stretch-------Cross
0-1-2-3-2-1-0-1-2-3-2-1-0
---------X-------------------
my input here I would perform an average B Reverse, and would either need to wait slightly longer before I perform it, or pull it off earlier at the previous animation.
In practice you would want to time it something like this:
Cross--------Stretch-------Cross
0-1-2-3-2-1-0-1-2-3-2-1-0
RRRRRRRN-LB--------------
Hopefully the visuals and numbers make some manner of sense and don't just scare off people, heh.
Discussions with Another Player
It is a B-Reverse done with the same timing of Ike's pre-patch Sliding Counter, ie; it seems to only work at specific points of animation during a run, but can be done at any time that those animations repeat.
In Eruption's case, Ike will slide about 3-4 character length's backwards, ZSS's Paralyzer goes about 2 1/2 character lengths. Mario's Fireball is short and Link's Bow slide is barely noticeable.
Someone on the ZSS boards had mentioned sliding backwards while trying to B-Reverse Paralyzer and even the notable members seemed uncertain, so I'm pretty sure this is 100% legit.
I remembered doing the same thing myself a few times with Ike's Eruption, so I decided to investigate with those two characters.
I went into the lab and fooled around at 1/4 speed, and when I realized how similar the timing was to Ike's Sliding Counter I decided to specifically try timing it to that, and I can get it 100% of the time at those two points, and NEVER on any others.
I think I even know what's causing it... sort of.
See, at those two animation points (on Ike at least its when his legs cross and when they are fully extended) the character animation "stutters".
Depending on the timing of a B-Reverse around these points your character will slide greater or shorter distances, and if it is timed perfectly (I think it's about 3-4 frames, but I'm not certain) then your character will turn but the full forward momentum continues to carry them (its basically the exact same distance that the B-Reverse would move you if you added both parts of the slide but put it in the same direction).
If you want an easy demonstration of the timing, try going into 1/4 speed as Ike and dashing. Use your side special (forwards, backwards, doesn't matter) during the dash.
If you do it too early he'll lose all of his momentum and do it prone, but if he's sliding you have passed the point.
Basically the EARLIEST point that causes him to slide with forward B during the dash is the timing that we're going for.
The timing is more strict than Sliding Counter because you need to have held forward long enough that the character will have "buffered" the beginning of their regular run animation (but NOT actually started it yet), and then you let the stick go to neutral and B-Reverse ON the transition period between the initial dash and the run.
You can actually do it while jogging as well (albeit with much less slide though), and possibly at an even slower walking speed than that, though I haven't really tested that yet.
In Eruption's case, Ike will slide about 3-4 character length's backwards, ZSS's Paralyzer goes about 2 1/2 character lengths. Mario's Fireball is short and Link's Bow slide is barely noticeable.
Someone on the ZSS boards had mentioned sliding backwards while trying to B-Reverse Paralyzer and even the notable members seemed uncertain, so I'm pretty sure this is 100% legit.
I remembered doing the same thing myself a few times with Ike's Eruption, so I decided to investigate with those two characters.
I went into the lab and fooled around at 1/4 speed, and when I realized how similar the timing was to Ike's Sliding Counter I decided to specifically try timing it to that, and I can get it 100% of the time at those two points, and NEVER on any others.
I think I even know what's causing it... sort of.
See, at those two animation points (on Ike at least its when his legs cross and when they are fully extended) the character animation "stutters".
Depending on the timing of a B-Reverse around these points your character will slide greater or shorter distances, and if it is timed perfectly (I think it's about 3-4 frames, but I'm not certain) then your character will turn but the full forward momentum continues to carry them (its basically the exact same distance that the B-Reverse would move you if you added both parts of the slide but put it in the same direction).
If you want an easy demonstration of the timing, try going into 1/4 speed as Ike and dashing. Use your side special (forwards, backwards, doesn't matter) during the dash.
If you do it too early he'll lose all of his momentum and do it prone, but if he's sliding you have passed the point.
Basically the EARLIEST point that causes him to slide with forward B during the dash is the timing that we're going for.
The timing is more strict than Sliding Counter because you need to have held forward long enough that the character will have "buffered" the beginning of their regular run animation (but NOT actually started it yet), and then you let the stick go to neutral and B-Reverse ON the transition period between the initial dash and the run.
You can actually do it while jogging as well (albeit with much less slide though), and possibly at an even slower walking speed than that, though I haven't really tested that yet.
You know how if you dash just long enough to start a run that letting the stick go back to neutral initiates a slide that you can't cancel with anything besides jumping?
Basically, after buffering in enough momentum to get the character to initiate their run you can -B-Reverse during the starting frames of that slide. The actual animation of the transition between dash and run DOESN'T technically need to be showing, if you memorize the timing you can get it to work during the slide too.
Because I don't have enough info on timing this and whatnot, I HIGHLY recommend testing it in 1/2 or 1/4 speed (zoom view is also recommended).
Remember that you need to hold forward long enough to buffer a run while still giving yourself enough time to let the stick read neutral input so that you don't accidentally use Quick Draw instead.
You will likely mess up A LOT because its timing is pretty strict.
Basically, after buffering in enough momentum to get the character to initiate their run you can -B-Reverse during the starting frames of that slide. The actual animation of the transition between dash and run DOESN'T technically need to be showing, if you memorize the timing you can get it to work during the slide too.
Because I don't have enough info on timing this and whatnot, I HIGHLY recommend testing it in 1/2 or 1/4 speed (zoom view is also recommended).
Remember that you need to hold forward long enough to buffer a run while still giving yourself enough time to let the stick read neutral input so that you don't accidentally use Quick Draw instead.
You will likely mess up A LOT because its timing is pretty strict.
I was testing with Luigi, and his timing is set EXACTLY to the sound of his footsteps and can be done at least 1 frame before, during, or after it comes out.
So, at 60fps you have approximately 3 frames (or a 1/20) chance of pulling it off randomly if you don't know the timing, which sounds about right to me.
Edit: Just like Ike it also causes the slide when both feet are fully extended, this likely works for everyone.
I'm going to test Shulk, I get the feeling that he's the only one who CAN'T do this due to Monado Arts not having an animation.
So, at 60fps you have approximately 3 frames (or a 1/20) chance of pulling it off randomly if you don't know the timing, which sounds about right to me.
Edit: Just like Ike it also causes the slide when both feet are fully extended, this likely works for everyone.
I'm going to test Shulk, I get the feeling that he's the only one who CAN'T do this due to Monado Arts not having an animation.
Its pretty much B-Reversing but all of the momentum continues forward instead of dividing between forward and backward slides.
Luigi does it fairly easily, try pulling a B-Reversed Fireball just as the toes of his back foot touchdown (specifically when it plays his footstep sound effect), or when his legs are fully extended off of the ground.
Its easy to see it in action on him because of his slippery traction.
It may be worth mentioning that I've been doing this on the 3DS version and haven't gotten around to testing it on the Wii U yet, but I expect it to work the same regardless.
Luigi does it fairly easily, try pulling a B-Reversed Fireball just as the toes of his back foot touchdown (specifically when it plays his footstep sound effect), or when his legs are fully extended off of the ground.
Its easy to see it in action on him because of his slippery traction.
It may be worth mentioning that I've been doing this on the 3DS version and haven't gotten around to testing it on the Wii U yet, but I expect it to work the same regardless.
It doesn't seem to work on characters with prone neutral Bs, such as Captain Falcon's, Bowser Jr.'s, and Villager's; basically any special that completely negates ground movement isn't compatible.
Mr. Game&Watch's is also easy, just time the B-Reverse to the start of the second running animation in his dash.
This technique also works with numerous up, down, and possibly side specials as well.
TLDR version:
When running/fast walking try to B Reverse either when your character's legs are either fully extended or just about to cross.
You may be surprised at the result.
For the original Sliding Counter Topic that I made:
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-have-figured-out-the-sliding-counter.375859/
--------
*Upon further investigation I have found evidence proving that I am the first (at least out of the two videos provided and my own threads and conversations) to have discovered these, but don't really care.
Therefore I'm going to give them the incredibly uninspired but unbiased names of "Running B Reverse" and "Running B Turnaround" (RoBbeR and RoBoT respectively).
Last edited:
