Potential setup for SSB Melee

[The notorious MP]

Hi folks, I am a UK based gamer and been heavily interested in the smash scene since the mid 2000s.

Was wondering if someone can review if the following setup would work well for a smash setup regarding melee.

So I have an NTSC gamecube running in 480p component to a YPbPr to VGA converter into a Sony Trinitron CRT monitor.

Would that be appropriate?

For recording purposes as well I was thinking of adding in a YPbPr Amplifier/Distributor so that I can split the signal coming out of my Gamecube (without any loss in clarity) with one set of Component cables going into a PVR and the other going into the VGA converter and thus into the CRT monitor.

Therefore the full setup would thus be NTSC gamecube -> Component cables -> Component video amplifier/distributor -> One set of component cables going into the PVR with the other going into a Component to VGA adaptor/converter -> Sony trinitron CRT monitor outputting 640 x 480.

Also for the sake of Smash 64 I will also have a small separate CRT trinitron with an RGB scart input for my RGB modded N64.

 

[Kadano]

What you have in mind is close to my two setups that I’ve been using for one or two years now.

Your proposed signal chain:
Gamecube → YPbPr cables → distribution amplifier → capture card (Hauppauge HD PVR, I guess?) + YPbPr-RGBHV converter → CRT monitor

My PVM signal chain:
Gamecube (or Wii) → YPbPr cables → Sony PVM20M7MDE CRT monitor → PVM in-built amplified passthrough hooked to one of my capture cards (Avermedia H727E)

My GDM signal chain:
Gamecube RGBHV cables (modified from official D-Terminal cables) → Extron 164xi RGB interface (three outputs) → two CRT monitors (Sony GDM-F520 and Mitsubishi 2070SB) + StarTech PEXHDCAP capture card

I personally do not care about Smash 64 at all and know hardly anything about its video output modes. Isn’t it possible to play that on a Wii with Virtual console, making it 480p60 as well (with some tool)?

Also, Melee in 480p60 on a lagless CRT is heaven. It’s really worth going through all that hassle and spending all that money. (I spent roughly 500€ on everything I needed for my 480p CRT setups together.)

If you don’t have a capture card yet or want to upgrade and have free PCIe slots, I recommend to either buy the StarTech PEXHDCAP (130€-ish) or the Micomsoft SC512N1-L/DVI (270€-ish). The latter is 1080p60 capable and has amplified passthrough for both VGA/RGBHV and YPbPr/component. I do my distribution amplifying with external devices and don’t care about 1080p capable games, so the PEXHDCAP (technically the same manufacturer as the SC512, its “true” model number is Yuan SC500N1) is sufficient for me.

Also, with my current 164xi amplifier, I can use two CRT monitors simultaneously. This is really nice for teams; every team has its own CRT to look at, so oblique viewing angles are no issue. It’s nice for singles as well.
I bought my 164xi from a seller at Ebay for 40€ including shipping. It’s listed in the Netherlands as 45€, 40 is the lowest amount they seem to agree to. They have several more of them, and 40€ is a good price for this device.

If you want to be able to use a Wii as well for this setup, you should get this one. The Wii VGA cables / YPbPr→VGA cables often output non-standard sync that can’t be recognized by other distribution amplifiers. I also have the Extron P2/DA4xi, which has one VGA input and four outputs and suffered from this problem. I paid 20€ for the DA4xi. It works perfectly well for Gamecube, as do two cheaper Digitus brand dist amps, but only the 164xi can clean the Wii sync signal.

All in all, getting a multi-sync Sony PVM will be your best solution, imho, but also the most expensive. It handles everything your Gamecubes, Wiis and N64s can output, although it only does csync, not hsync+vsync. But working around that isn’t hard.
PVMs are expensive, though. I got mine for 160€. It has two 480p capable inputs, both of them accept YPbPr, RGsB and RGBS.

If playing Smash 64 from Wii is an option for you, I say go for the VGA PC CRT monitor + dist amp setup. If it’s not, go with a Sony PVM. (The only models I know of off the top of my head that do 480i, 240p and 480p are the 20M7MDE and the 20L5 and 14L5 revisions, the latter also doing 720p60.)

 

[The notorious MP]

So would you say therefore that my proposed setup will be sufficient for competitive melee gaming?

The fact you have a PVM is incredible, I wish I could get one however I am trying to accomodate having a Gamecube in Component, a dreamcast in VGA and an N64 in SCART therefore a Trinitron CRT monitor I would think is the next best thing for 480p gaming.

Yes I am currently using a HDPVR for recording purposes, my original way was to pass through the gamecube component signal and output HDMI through it into a HDTV to try and remove any analogue to digital conversion. But even then I doubt I could get the best possible quality out of that setup making me decide to look for two CRTs for gaming, one for my N64 and the other for my Gamecube and Dreamcast.

I think I saw your video when I was doing my research into proposing my SSB Melee setup

I have major respect for you!

EDIT: Also just as a heads up I am using an N64 over a wii purely because I am also an old school shiny hunter and so far there is no way to play Pokemon Stadium 2 officially outside of an N64 with regards to archiving shiny pokemon from my gameboy onto my N64.
Along with that I constantly use the Gameboy player on my Gamcube which I also can't use on a wii making it partially obsolete with respect to what I need/do.

 

[Kadano]

Yes, your setup is fine. If you stay on the lookout for PVMs, keep in mind that the only two models you should pay 100+ for are 20L5 and 20M7MDE, as they do 480p. And 14L5, if that’s large enough for you (it is not for me).

If you do YPbPr → HD PVR → HDMI, the HD PVR will do analog to digital conversion (ADC), so I don’t quite see why you say that you’d avoid ADC with the HD PVR HDMI output. (Altogether, I really don’t fancy that approach, especially considering how you want to use N64 as well.)

It’s great that you have Gamecube component cables and chose to go the Gamecube way. Wii is the cheap solution, but not as good quality-wise.
Also, considering how you are using an NTSC Gamecube, does that imply you also play NTSC Melee? Because my tournaments’ attendants surely wouldn’t want to put up with that.

By installing a modchip into your Gamecube (works on PAL as well), you can boot any game iso from either burned DVDs (full-size work better, but require case mod obviously) or SD cards. The modchips I know of that work well are Qoob Pro, Wasp Fusion / Wiikey Fusion and WODE. All of these have their own merits and drawbacks on which I’ll elaborate if you are interested.

 

[The notorious MP]

Yes, your setup is fine. If you stay on the lookout for PVMs, keep in mind that the only two models you should pay 100+ for are 20L5 and 20M7MDE, as they do 480p. And 14L5, if that’s large enough for you (it is not for me).

Thank you I will keep a look out if there is a decent PVM that suits my needs.

So far I am going to be using a Sony GDM-F500 for my Gamecube and Dreamcast, it includes with it a VGA to RGBHV BNC adaptor (which I can use for my Dreamcast) and use the VGA port on the CRT for my Gamecube, the seller was also nice enough to even deliver it to my house.

The converter I am using is a Star-tech Component to VGA converter which was tested by other SSB players to have at most a total of 0.1ms input lag at worst when using a CRT monitor at 480p (640x480 @ 60hz).

If you do YPbPr → HD PVR → HDMI, the HD PVR will do analog to digital conversion (ADC), so I don’t quite see why you say that you’d avoid ADC with the HD PVR HDMI output. (Altogether, I really don’t fancy that approach, especially considering how you want to use N64 as well.)

I have had nothing but bad experiences using HDTVs for old consoles in the past, and decided to give it up and just get a CRT for the best performance latency and picture wise (I can be very picky with images and was not impressed seeing jagged edges when running 480p, even tried using scanline generators to help improve the picture but even then in the back of my head was the reminder that there will always be lag no matter what I do to the signal).

Also, considering how you are using an NTSC Gamecube, does that imply you also play NTSC Melee? Because my tournaments’ attendants surely wouldn’t want to put up with that.

So far yes only because its the only proper way to play Melee officially at 480p at 60hz, however if there are any SSB64 tournaments I am playing on a PAL N64, just looking around for a nice CRT tv with RGB SCART input and overscan control.

However since Melee in PAL runs at 50 and 60hz what are the tournament guidelines for playing the PAL version of Melee and even though the signal would be interlaced (if I do consider making my Gamecube region free) would that still be playable on my CRT monitor?

EDIT:

It’s great that you have Gamecube component cables and chose to go the Gamecube way. Wii is the cheap solution, but not as good quality-wise.

Yes I am aware of the noisy/bad Component output of the Wii, also I didn't really like most of the games the wii had to offer nor do I support Nintendo's decision to shun the hardcore gamers during that era.

 

[Kadano]

However since Melee in PAL runs at 50 and 60hz what are the tournament guidelines for playing the PAL version of Melee and even though the signal would be interlaced (if I do consider making my Gamecube region free) would that still be playable on my CRT monitor?

In PAL Melee, the 480p query has been replaced with a 60 hz query. That’s why modchips are necessary to play PAL Melee in 480p60 (they force the Gamecube into 480p mode, which can not be selected otherwise, even though PAL Gamecubes are still perectly capable of it hardware-wise). 576p50 is also possible, but the additional resolution is not worth the crappy frame rate. 60 hz is really the bottom end of what’s acceptable.

Your GDM seller seems very nice! How much did you end up paying for the set?

 

[The notorious MP]

Your GDM seller seems very nice! How much did you end up paying for the set?

It was for sale for £50 but I paid £90 for him to drive all the way to my town to bring it to my house as it would have been too heavy for a local courier and he really wanted to get rid of it from moving.

In PAL Melee, the 480p query has been replaced with a 60 hz query. That’s why modchips are necessary to play PAL Melee in 480p60 (they force the Gamecube into 480p mode, which can not be selected otherwise, even though PAL Gamecubes are still perectly capable of it hardware-wise). 576p50 is also possible, but the additional resolution is not worth the crappy frame rate. 60 hz is really the bottom end of what’s acceptable.

Ok I may have a think about it and mod it in the future, what chip would I need to get?

 

[Kadano]

Ok I may have a think about it and mod it in the future, what chip would I need to get?

Modchip|Avg. price|Soldering amount required|Difficulty in software setup|Can force 480p in PAL|Stores video mode|SD loading|Launch burned DVDs|Game load times
XenoGC|12$|Low|Very easy|No|No|No|Yes|0.7x-1x
Qoob Pro|30$|Low|Easy|Yes|Yes|No|Yes|0.7x-1x
Wasp Fusion|30$|High|Moderate|Yes|No|Yes|No|1.5x-2x
WODE|80$|Very high|Very high|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes|1.5x-2x

To me, Wasp Fusion (same as Wiikey Fusion) is the best solution, but it has the drawback of not being able to autoboot in 480p. You need to first select the correct .iso file on your SD card, then press X to go into the settings, cycle through the menu to set video mode to 480p, accept, then load the game. You need to do this every time you turn the Gamecube on.
With a WODE, you can configure it so that it auto-boots an iso of your choice. It’s somewhat hard to get that working and to install the chip, and it’s also quite expensive. I’ve never used a WODE myself, only Qoob Pro and Wasp Fusions.

 

[Mashu Koria]

What you have in mind is close to my two setups that I’ve been using for one or two years now.

Your proposed signal chain:
Gamecube → YPbPr cables → distribution amplifier → capture card (Hauppauge HD PVR, I guess?) + YPbPr-RGBHV converter → CRT monitor

My PVM signal chain:
Gamecube (or Wii) → YPbPr cables → Sony PVM20M7MDE CRT monitor → PVM in-built amplified passthrough hooked to one of my capture cards (Avermedia H727E)

My GDM signal chain:
Gamecube RGBHV cables (modified from official D-Terminal cables) → Extron 164xi RGB interface (three outputs) → two CRT monitors (Sony GDM-F520 and Mitsubishi 2070SB) + StarTech PEXHDCAP capture card

I personally do not care about Smash 64 at all and know hardly anything about its video output modes. Isn’t it possible to play that on a Wii with Virtual console, making it 480p60 as well (with some tool)?

Also, Melee in 480p60 on a lagless CRT is heaven. It’s really worth going through all that hassle and spending all that money. (I spent roughly 500€ on everything I needed for my 480p CRT setups together.)

If you don’t have a capture card yet or want to upgrade and have free PCIe slots, I recommend to either buy the StarTech PEXHDCAP (130€-ish) or the Micomsoft SC512N1-L/DVI (270€-ish). The latter is 1080p60 capable and has amplified passthrough for both VGA/RGBHV and YPbPr/component. I do my distribution amplifying with external devices and don’t care about 1080p capable games, so the PEXHDCAP (technically the same manufacturer as the SC512, its “true” model number is Yuan SC500N1) is sufficient for me.

Also, with my current 164xi amplifier, I can use two CRT monitors simultaneously. This is really nice for teams; every team has its own CRT to look at, so oblique viewing angles are no issue. It’s nice for singles as well.
I bought my 164xi from a seller at Ebay for 40€ including shipping. It’s listed in the Netherlands as 45€, 40 is the lowest amount they seem to agree to. They have several more of them, and 40€ is a good price for this device.

If you want to be able to use a Wii as well for this setup, you should get this one. The Wii VGA cables / YPbPr→VGA cables often output non-standard sync that can’t be recognized by other distribution amplifiers. I also have the Extron P2/DA4xi, which has one VGA input and four outputs and suffered from this problem. I paid 20€ for the DA4xi. It works perfectly well for Gamecube, as do two cheaper Digitus brand dist amps, but only the 164xi can clean the Wii sync signal.

All in all, getting a multi-sync Sony PVM will be your best solution, imho, but also the most expensive. It handles everything your Gamecubes, Wiis and N64s can output, although it only does csync, not hsync+vsync. But working around that isn’t hard.
PVMs are expensive, though. I got mine for 160€. It has two 480p capable inputs, both of them accept YPbPr, RGsB and RGBS.

If playing Smash 64 from Wii is an option for you, I say go for the VGA PC CRT monitor + dist amp setup. If it’s not, go with a Sony PVM. (The only models I know of off the top of my head that do 480i, 240p and 480p are the 20M7MDE and the 20L5 and 14L5 revisions, the latter also doing 720p60.)

While reading this, I could just FEEL you were a Marth main, I look over, and sure enough...