Potential new Smash technique?

[CrimsonYoshi]

When I see people trumping each other's edgegrabs, they're set RIGHT UP for a dair when they fly off the edge.bThe person who took the grab could hop off and force the other off the stage with the move. Could this change edge guarding as more as a last resort and less as a strategy due to this, or is this tactic ineffective?

 

[Aninymouse]

There is a lot of potential. We'll have to see which characters can set up opponents from a ledge trump. I don't think we have much info on the physics of this... Yet. Soon we will, though.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm very excited for the new edgehogging mechanics. Finally, some thought goes into the decision.

 

[Nixon Corral]

It'll be interesting, but we'll have to wait and see. Could make for some exciting play, or it could just make edgehogging entirely too risky. We just don't know.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. For falcon, it's a perfect wall jump ->knee setup, seemingly.

 

[Renji64]

I'm not sure if these changes are good or bad yet.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I can theorycraft some ideas where this is better than before, but I'm still not sure overall with how this will affect the game as a whole.

 

[Logsmash]

I love the changes to edgeguarding, it means that if you want to take a stock you have to actually knock your opponent off the screen, you can't just get lucky with cheese-kills or hang there passively as they fall to their deaths. If a fighter can make it back to the edge of the stage, it means you didn't do enough to push them off it and you don't deserve the kill. Furthermore, it'll force increased interaction between fighters, since you have to make sure that the opponent goes off the stage and stays off. This can only improve the quality of matches, as it means players have to spend more time actively fighting one another and less time using campy/cheesy strategies.

 

[TimeSmash]

Question: If a person is getting from from the ledge, does it still count as them being on the ledge? I know two characters can grab the ledge now, but theoretically if you got up quick enough, your hop wouldn't be forced. I'm also assuming that even though you're invincible while grabbing the ledge, others can still grab it

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I will say this, Planking is dead along with edge hogging.

We know that much.

 

[Malex]

Here's my post from a different thread.

My current position is that edge trumping may be useful for unique match ups / situations. At the very least, it will "reset" the edge game, which is useful for keeping the pressure up. Especially for characters with weaker air games.

Spoiler

Ok, here's what I was able to piece together from grand finals. Data is approximate. 60 fps assumed. (Looked at youtube clip frame by frame using rowvid, rounded to nearest whole frame)
Note: Recovery frames are typically used to define frames of an attack action that occur after the hit boxes disappear, but before more commands can be input. I am using it as a blanket term for when commands cannot be input as part of any action.

Spoiler: Edge Grab Data

ZSS - Edge Grabs

1. 0.26 seconds -> 16 frames
   • 7:32
     
   • Kirby F-tils Zamus. She freefalls directly into an edge grab.
   • Ledge Jumps.
     
   • No noticeable pause.
2. 0.08 seconds -> 5 frames
   • 6:43
   • Zamus is recovering and tethers the edge.
   • She swings down and seemingly instantly goes into a ledge jump.
   • Perhaps your ledge commands can be entered while tethered?
3. 0.04 seconds -> 2 frames
   • 6:32
   • Zamus is recovering and tethers the edge.
   • She swings down and seemingly instantly goes into a ledge attack.
   • Evidence for ledge commands input while tethered
4. 0.60 seconds -> 36 frames
   • 1:20
   • Kirby f-tils Zamus away from the edge, Zamus ^Bs to edge.
   • Ledge attacks.
     
   • Small pause
5. 0.36 seconds -> 22 frames
   • 0:02
   • Zamus retreats from Kirby to force sudden death. Falls onto edge.
   • Ledge drops.
     
   • Potentially a pause here.

Kirby - Edge Grabs

1. 0.81 seconds -> 49 frames
   • 5:57
   • Kirby recovering with air jumps grabs onto ledge.
   • Ledge drop
     
   • Noticeable pause
2. 0.50 seconds -> 30 frames
   • 3:00
   • Kirby avoids Zamus above stage and falls onto ledge.
   • Ledge jump
     
   • Seems like there is a small pause
3. 0.20 seconds -> 12 frames
   • 2:13
   • Kirby recovering with ^B.
     
   • Ledge Jump
     
   • No noticeable pause.
4. 0.48 seconds -> 29 frames
   • 1:56
   • Kirby avoids Zamus above stage and recovers onto ledge.
   • Ledge drop.
   • Feels like a pause here.
5. 0.26 seconds -> 16 frames
   • 1:34
   • Kirby avoids Zamus above stage and air jumps to ledge.
   • Ledge drop.
   • No noticeable pause.

Personal interpretation of data and questions in response to it:

1. Ledge commands can be input while tethered for auto-execution at edge grab.
   • Is the swing from tether recovery a constant?
   • What if you input commands at different times?
   • Are tether recoveries identical?
   • Do tether recoveries edge trump?
   • Can you trump a tether?
2. The minimum time appears to be in the neighborhood of 12 frames. I believe there are recovery frames and that this is a good approximation of their duration. Assuming that this is correct.
   • Can a player be trumped during their invincibility?
   • Can a player be trumped during their 12 recovery frames?

When I get a chance, I will analyze trumping for similar data. As I previously suggested, I believe that a possible safe option to edge guard with is edge trumping. It is reliant on trumping to have a lengthy duration of recovery frames. You will need a trumped enemy to be in recovery frames for the 12 frames of your edge grab plus any additional time to reclaim the edge or use an attack.

Currently my stance on Edge Trumping being used as a competitive tactic is.......

Plausible. More data required.


Edit: MORE DATA ACQUIRED.

from http://youtu.be/d-UTsOGrqO4?t=12m13s

Timed from the edge grab until what I thought was falling animation, I could be wrong. YOU DO IT BETTER THEN.

Spoiler: Edge Trump Data

1. Mario Trumped
   • 0.52 seconds -> 31 frames
   • Double Jump +10 frames
2. Villager Trumped
   • 0.44 seconds -> 26 frames
   • Double Jump +24 frames
3. Mario Trumped
   • 0.48 seconds -> 29 frames
   • Double Jump +31 frames
4. Villager Trumped
   • 0.52 seconds -> 31 frames
   • Double jump +10 frames
5. Pit
   • 0.52 seconds -> 31 frames
   • Double jump +5 frames

So, the treehouse members probably weren't attempting to play optimally, as they were showing off the mechanic. What would be a reasonable assumption? I think that 0.4 seconds is reasonable. (For easy math, as edge grab is 0.2)

So, you would have 12 frames (1/5th of a second) to land an attack or reclaim stage position. Sounds reasonable. Kirby's ledge jump -> double jump on the third edge grab is 0.28 seconds or 17 frames. I think this is about as close as I can look without reviewing the game myself to find the most optimal course of action to take in the situation.

 

[Renji64]

This could make matches take a long time. I do feel if someone gets you off stage you should have to fight to get back.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I will say this, Planking is dead along with edge hogging.

We know that much.

You can plank for a little while, but you only get so many frames of ledge intangibility total, it looks like (just based on SDCC footage). So you can jump off to postpone them for later and then regrab, but your total number of invincibility frames won't refresh.

 

[TimeSmash]

This could make matches take a long time. I do feel if someone gets you off stage you should have to fight to get back.

I do agree with you the latter point. This kind of mechanic is interesting because you really have to focus more on offstage edeguarding rather than just ledge camping/ regrabbing (examples would be like Shiek using back air to go deep for an edgegaurd, knocking opponent too far to recover). BUt while it does this, some characters will definitely have a lack of options (Little Mac comes to mind), and aimable projectiles like Peach's turnips become a lot more important for "pure" gimps (as opposed to dirty gimps, where your opponent could make it but your grabbed the ledge, so screw them). This forced jump definitely will help the edgeguarder in some way hopefully, so it'll be interesting to see what we can do with it.

Maybe matches will take longer, but I'm not too sure on that haha

 

[TweetyPurd]

Are we sure than you ledge trump someone during their invincibility?

Im pretty sure the first time you grab the ledge you get invincibility as normal, but if you dont stand on the stage, then you dont get your invincibility back.

But if youre on the stage, and you grab ledge just a moment before the opponent tries to, will that still edghog??

 

[liets]

It would be best if you try to roll up from the edge directly after your steal

 

[CrimsonYoshi]

It would be best if you try to roll up from the edge directly after your steal

That's what I'm thinking would happen in a more competitive environment. But at least edge grabbing isn't as safe as it used to be!

 

[liets]

That's what I'm thinking would happen in a more competitive environment. But at least edge grabbing isn't as safe as it used to be!

Right, and that's the way it needed to be! :D

 

[CrimsonYoshi]

Right, and that's the way it needed to be! :D

It adds to the pace, at least!

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This could make matches take a long time. I do feel if someone gets you off stage you should have to fight to get back.

by this logic one character should be grabing the edge hoggers leg and desperately clime back up

 

[Malex]

Question: If a person is getting from from the ledge, does it still count as them being on the ledge? I know two characters can grab the ledge now, but theoretically if you got up quick enough, your hop wouldn't be forced. I'm also assuming that even though you're invincible while grabbing the ledge, others can still grab it

Are we sure than you ledge trump someone during their invincibility?

Im pretty sure the first time you grab the ledge you get invincibility as normal, but if you dont stand on the stage, then you dont get your invincibility back.

But if youre on the stage, and you grab ledge just a moment before the opponent tries to, will that still edghog??

I saw a clip of a character starting the animation of a ledge roll, and another character grabbed the edge and nothing happened. So, I suspect that the mechanic only applies to opponents who have not input any ledge commands, including if they are in their initial recovery frames of grabbing the edge.

In theory, the safe method of edge hogging will be replaced with forced edge trumping. Instead of hanging on the edge, the next safest course of action would be to be near the edge, and time your edge grab to happen within 12 frames of the opponent grabbing the edge, which will force a trump and place the opponent into approximately 24 frames of edge trump animation.

Unfortunately, during this time, you are in your edge grab recovery frames. Ultimately, you will have a 12 frame advantage to gain a favorable position against your opponent. Whether that means edge dropping into an aerial or reclaiming the stage somehow is probably up to the specific match up,.


As far as invincibility on the ledge goes, your frames of invincibility are determined by the length of time off the ground, your damage, and the distance traveled, if I remember correctly. So, unless you are the person recovering, you may get some invincibility the first edge grab, but nothing useful.

 

[TweetyPurd]

As far as invincibility on the ledge goes, your frames of invincibility are determined by the length of time off the ground, your damage, and the distance traveled, if I remember correctly. So, unless you are the person recovering, you may get some invincibility the first edge grab, but nothing useful.

So is it possible to edgehog at all?

 

[Malex]

No. If you input a command, it appears that you will continue with the action and the opponent grabs the ledge.

Example: I grab the ledge and push L or R and start the animation for a ledge roll. During that animation, my opponent grabs the ledge.


That is the specific event that I saw happen, but I don't feel like tracking it down because I don't know if it was from the Treehouse stream, SDCC, or any of the other vids that are uploaded.

 

[TweetyPurd]

No. If you input a command, it appears that you will continue with the action and the opponent grabs the ledge.

Example: I grab the ledge and push L or R and start the animation for a ledge roll. During that animation, my opponent grabs the ledge.


That is the specific event that I saw happen, but I don't feel like tracking it down because I don't know if it was from the Treehouse stream, SDCC, or any of the other vids that are uploaded.

yeah i understand you, but in brawl for example, lets say falco side B's to sweetspot the ledge,
if you grabbed the ledge just before he hit it, you dont get hit by the attack, and you ledgehog him.

its is possible in smash 4? where you can ledge hog, but you have to time your ledge grab perfectly?

 

[Malex]

When a player grabs the ledge, it appears they enter 12 frames of recovery frames. I believe that during this time, if another player grabs the ledge, it would trump them.

From what I remember when I was observing edge trumps, I believe the invincibility granted from grabbing the ledge is carried over to your edge trump, but just being trumped does not grant invincibility frames.

So, it appears that an option for someone with a poor air game would be to do a quick edge grab from the stage within the first 12 frames of the opponent grabbing the ledge, and force them to be trumped, then quickly get back on the stage. (Probably with a ledge dropped double jump or a cancelled ledge jump)

edit: I don't recall anyone trumping during the animation of their recovery moves, however. So, I'm not sure how sweet-spotting affects it, but I imagine it doesn't change anything.