SalamiMommy
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2017
- Messages
- 1
I know this has been discussed in the past but it has been an issue that has been burning in my mind and I really think that it needs to be discussed more. Melee players as a community generally take this game very seriously as a competitive esport. So why is it that we continue to cling on to pokemon stadium? I have heard plenty of thoughtful criticisms, but haven’t yet heard any support beyond “its not that bad”, “falcon and marth like it too”. But there are 25 characters in this game, not just falcon and marth, so does it even benefit half of them?
I will start by linking a post I found on the smashbros reddit and hopefully expanding on it: https://imgur.com/a/cNHDG#QGtxlCX
Recovering is degraded by not being able to see, this is very damaging when trying to ledge tech. hold too far in and you get caught under the lip, not far enough and you won’t be able to smash DI. There is a wall you can tether, but because you can’t see this hurts tether characters’ recoveries.
The rock transformation has the lip near the ledge which limits tech options and provides a wall for a shine infinite. The sloped platform invalidates the neutral game of some characters by changing their tilt/smash hitboxes. The pit and rock wall have no competitive value and give fox an infinite in both spots, pika gets a jab infinite in the pit. Characters stuck in the pit can be agressed by marth without much punishment. The rock invalidates characters with horizontal kill moves coming from the right, favouring characters with vertical kill moves both on top of it and to the right.
The grass stage has minor sloped angles, but they aren’t too big of a concern.
The windmill on the water transformation provides extra recovery options to characters who have good horizontal recoveries (Puff, Mewtwo, Sheik, DK, Fox, Falco, Zelda, Peach). However, for floatier characters, getting down from the windmill is still a challenge. So being conservative, it really mostly benefits Fox, Falco, Sheik, and maybe DK. The incline again hurts tilts and smashes, this means that a transformation can randomly put a player at a disadvantage.
The fire stage has fox infinites anywhere around the tree, same horizontal killing problems, the same marth problem, and a hole that characters can randomly fall through.
Both the fire and rock stages generally result in a standstill if a player is not trapped by a wall during the transformation. If we are to run a timer for smash, should we extend it to compensate for these moments of standstill? Is a standstill fun for the players? For the spectators?
Now, I would like to address the issue of counterpicking in melee. There are 5 neutral stages and 1 counterpick, before even addressing what stage is the counterpick, we should look at the imbalance of having 1 counterpick. If a stage is considered a counterpick instead of neutral, it must benefit some characters more than others, so why is it that there is only 1 counterpick? Are we giving preferential treatment to some of the cast and not others?
This part may bring about some controversy, but hear me out. I would like to suggest that Mute City be equally as competitive as Stadium. I am not saying that either should be legal for competitive play, but if we wish to keep the counterpicking concept, then bear with me. The cast can to some extend be divided into floaties and fastfallers, who prefer different stage types (please keep in mind this is a generalization not a rule). Fastfallers tend to prefer larger stages with smaller blastzones while floaties generally prefer smaller stage sizes with larger blastzones. The larger stages give fastfallers more room to maneuver while still providing killing potential, while the smaller stages inhibit the maneuverability and the larger blastzones extend the floaties’ lives. Pokemon stadium is a large stage with small blastzones and mute city a small stage with larger blastzones. Both contain RNG (the cars or the transformations) and walls. So I would like to ask what criteria stadium addresses that mute city doesn’t? Sure there is a lack of a ledge, but that is only a disadvantage for some characters, most others can stall between landings, similar to how the windmill or rock can save some recoveries.
I would finally like to address pride. We are a proud community, and very nationalist about our game, so I can understand the refusal to accept criticism, because it is admitting that our current system isn’t perfect. As the game ages, we see less lower-tiered characters played and more of the top tiers. But that doesn’t mean that they alone dictate the ruleset. The characters that benefit the most from this stage are Fox, Marth, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, and Pika. Those are the top 4 plus falcon and pika. So why is it that the best characters get the handicap of a counterpick, while low tiers do not? Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Chances are, a lot of players are biased and resistant to change due to the present circumstances favouring their character.
So I would like to open up the discussion again to banning Pokestad as a tourney legal map. I understand that people might be opposed because it will shrink our variety by one more stage, but Pokemon Stadium does not add variety in a competitive fashion. Plus, the majority of our gameplay is during friendlies, and I feel many people forget that we are free to choose any map we’d like for that.
I will start by linking a post I found on the smashbros reddit and hopefully expanding on it: https://imgur.com/a/cNHDG#QGtxlCX
Recovering is degraded by not being able to see, this is very damaging when trying to ledge tech. hold too far in and you get caught under the lip, not far enough and you won’t be able to smash DI. There is a wall you can tether, but because you can’t see this hurts tether characters’ recoveries.
The rock transformation has the lip near the ledge which limits tech options and provides a wall for a shine infinite. The sloped platform invalidates the neutral game of some characters by changing their tilt/smash hitboxes. The pit and rock wall have no competitive value and give fox an infinite in both spots, pika gets a jab infinite in the pit. Characters stuck in the pit can be agressed by marth without much punishment. The rock invalidates characters with horizontal kill moves coming from the right, favouring characters with vertical kill moves both on top of it and to the right.
The grass stage has minor sloped angles, but they aren’t too big of a concern.
The windmill on the water transformation provides extra recovery options to characters who have good horizontal recoveries (Puff, Mewtwo, Sheik, DK, Fox, Falco, Zelda, Peach). However, for floatier characters, getting down from the windmill is still a challenge. So being conservative, it really mostly benefits Fox, Falco, Sheik, and maybe DK. The incline again hurts tilts and smashes, this means that a transformation can randomly put a player at a disadvantage.
The fire stage has fox infinites anywhere around the tree, same horizontal killing problems, the same marth problem, and a hole that characters can randomly fall through.
Both the fire and rock stages generally result in a standstill if a player is not trapped by a wall during the transformation. If we are to run a timer for smash, should we extend it to compensate for these moments of standstill? Is a standstill fun for the players? For the spectators?
Now, I would like to address the issue of counterpicking in melee. There are 5 neutral stages and 1 counterpick, before even addressing what stage is the counterpick, we should look at the imbalance of having 1 counterpick. If a stage is considered a counterpick instead of neutral, it must benefit some characters more than others, so why is it that there is only 1 counterpick? Are we giving preferential treatment to some of the cast and not others?
This part may bring about some controversy, but hear me out. I would like to suggest that Mute City be equally as competitive as Stadium. I am not saying that either should be legal for competitive play, but if we wish to keep the counterpicking concept, then bear with me. The cast can to some extend be divided into floaties and fastfallers, who prefer different stage types (please keep in mind this is a generalization not a rule). Fastfallers tend to prefer larger stages with smaller blastzones while floaties generally prefer smaller stage sizes with larger blastzones. The larger stages give fastfallers more room to maneuver while still providing killing potential, while the smaller stages inhibit the maneuverability and the larger blastzones extend the floaties’ lives. Pokemon stadium is a large stage with small blastzones and mute city a small stage with larger blastzones. Both contain RNG (the cars or the transformations) and walls. So I would like to ask what criteria stadium addresses that mute city doesn’t? Sure there is a lack of a ledge, but that is only a disadvantage for some characters, most others can stall between landings, similar to how the windmill or rock can save some recoveries.
I would finally like to address pride. We are a proud community, and very nationalist about our game, so I can understand the refusal to accept criticism, because it is admitting that our current system isn’t perfect. As the game ages, we see less lower-tiered characters played and more of the top tiers. But that doesn’t mean that they alone dictate the ruleset. The characters that benefit the most from this stage are Fox, Marth, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, and Pika. Those are the top 4 plus falcon and pika. So why is it that the best characters get the handicap of a counterpick, while low tiers do not? Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Chances are, a lot of players are biased and resistant to change due to the present circumstances favouring their character.
So I would like to open up the discussion again to banning Pokestad as a tourney legal map. I understand that people might be opposed because it will shrink our variety by one more stage, but Pokemon Stadium does not add variety in a competitive fashion. Plus, the majority of our gameplay is during friendlies, and I feel many people forget that we are free to choose any map we’d like for that.
