Playing Melee (and Project M) on an HD TV

[Spaghetti Sammy]

My friend said that there is some lag on HDTVs, is this something that will critically effect how I play, or is it relatively negatable.
The lag for HD TVs is about 6 frames (so about 1/10 of a second)

 

[Stride]

The amount of lag on your TV is significant (as it is on practically all HDTVs). It won't really matter at low level play, since you'll be bad regardless of the TV, though it will make it harder to learn at any level. You'll have less reaction time (which drastically affects a lot of things and changes the way you have to play) and the timings you'll learn will be off, causing you to build habits and muscle memory that you'll have to unlearn later.

Get a CRT as soon as possible; they're often free and there's no reason not to have one if you have the space.

 

[bearsfan092]

We should have a sticky that just says "Yes, please get a CRT at your earliest convenience". This thread pops up alot.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't even argue, just get a damn CRT.

 

[AirFair]

Just buy a CRT please.

 

[JukeboxSSBM]

All depends on how much of a competitive player you are, if you're a very casual player, it doesn't really matter. If you're into competitive, fast-paced, heavy tech play. Get a CRT, or a 1ms response monitor at the least

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

Alright then, Ill pick one up the next time I can

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

Don't even argue, just get a damn CRT.

I heard Nicolas Cage was really O.P. in Project M

 

[Deleted member]

I heard Nicolas Cage was really O.P. in Project M

Yeh we nerfed Gerninja to balance him.

 

[Dandy_here]

My tv has ports for av, and I also emulate melee so yep. Also project m doesn't lag on hdtv's i think

 

[bearsfan092]

Yes it does.

 

[Dandy_here]

Yes it does.

Then I must have some magical set up that has no lag. Feels like a crt

 

[Narpas_sword]

or a 1ms response monitor at the least

http://www.displaylag.com/exposed-input-lag-vs-response-time/

 

[N1c2k3]

I have been using a BenQ RL2460HT for about 6 months now:

http://shop.benq.us/monitors/gaming/rl2460ht.html?utm_campaign=mainsitelink&utm_source=main

I know this is of course debatable, but there is no noticeable difference between playing on it and a CRT. I have taken it to tournies and have played multiple tourny matches on it.

Here's a link to the MioM page discussing TV input delays.:

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/21iixv/melee_it_on_me_ugh_this_tv_lags_a_guide_on_tv/

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Get a CRT, don't argue, do it. It's worth it and is a lot easier to learn and get better on.

 

[deviljin545]

it should be the same unless its bigger than 40 inches

 

[Narpas_sword]

it should be the same unless its bigger than 40 inches

Size has nothing to do with input lag.

http://www.displaylag.com/what-is-input-lag-the-breakdown/

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

don't argue

Why does everyone imply I'm arguing

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Why does everyone imply I'm arguing

We don't mean to, we're just saying lmao,

 

[N1c2k3]

Again, I refer to Fizzi's article:

http://www.meleeitonme.com/this-tv-lags-a-guide-on-input-and-display-lag/

If anyone says to completely throw out LCD's and has never played one a good one, then they do not have the proper experience to have a say in the matter. There's a reason MLG has been using them for a while, on fighting games. It is not humanly possible to detect the difference in a 2-3 ms (an average of a about 1/6th of a frame) difference.

The real issue is the availability of the solution; it is expensive, and not everyone has access to it, which creates a difference playing experience between setups. If everyone was instantly given a BenQ (or whichever) 1ms monitor so that everyone was playing on the same setup universally from home and at tournaments, then no one would complain.

Still, the argument isn't any made any weaker: there are HD display options that are completely playable.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

So, if Smash 4, being an HD game, can only be played on HDTVs mean Smash 4 always has this longer lag?

 

[N1c2k3]

No no no.

Simplified: The reason Melee lags is because it needs to be played on a GC/Wii. Those systems don't natively output an HD signal/resolution. So, what you have to do is use the composite (red/white/yellow) or component (red/blue/green) cables into the TV, then the TV has to process the signal and upscale it to the resolution that it is set to display (1080p or whatnot). Or, you get a Wii HDMI adapter. The time it takes either the tv or the adapter to process the upscaling is what creates delay.

The WiiU natively outputs HD resolution, so the only delay you will experience is in the response time of your television, which on good tv's/monitors, shouldn't be noticeable, but on ones with higher response times, is...

 

[Narpas_sword]

Response time isnt input lag.
conversion time between digital to analogue is much, much shorter than the tv's input lag.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

No no no.

Simplified: The reason Melee lags is because it needs to be played on a GC/Wii. Those systems don't natively output an HD signal/resolution. So, what you have to do is use the composite (red/white/yellow) or component (red/blue/green) cables into the TV, then the TV has to process the signal and upscale it to the resolution that it is set to display (1080p or whatnot). Or, you get a Wii HDMI adapter. The time it takes either the tv or the adapter to process the upscaling is what creates delay.

The WiiU natively outputs HD resolution, so the only delay you will experience is in the response time of your television, which on good tv's/monitors, shouldn't be noticeable, but on ones with higher response times, is...

Hey thanks!
For a second I was concerned that my reaction time wouldn't be that good transitioning between games.
My Melee fangirl of me was saying "if theres input lag than it should not be played competitively"
But I'm glad I can play Villager in glorious 1080p

 

[Narpas_sword]

Hey thanks!
For a second I was concerned that my reaction time wouldn't be that good transitioning between games.
My Melee fangirl of me was saying "if theres input lag than it should not be played competitively"
But I'm glad I can play Villager in glorious 1080p

uhg. use normal size font...

Also, a bunch of what he said was wrong.
There's input lag on your TV. Even with Wii-U in 1080p over HDMI.

Google your TV model + 'input lag' and see if there are any results.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

Response time isnt input lag.
conversion time between digital to analogue is much, much shorter than the tv's input lag.

My TV has a "Game" mode so I turned that on and I turned off all the reductions.
I also googled it and the only thing that came up was some guy from 2009 who had bad settings.
(My TV is an Emerson btw)
So knowing all that should I have minuscule lag.
As in equal to the amount of lag with playing Melee on a CRT

 

[Narpas_sword]

game mode will reduce input lag, but not remove it. if you cant find anything with google, then no one has likely tested it.

You could either test it yourself if you really want to know, or get a crt if it bothers you.

Smash4 has a 10 frame buffer though, so you shouldn't notice a small amount of input lag anyway.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

game mode will reduce input lag, but not remove it. if you cant find anything with google, then no one has likely tested it.

You could either test it yourself if you really want to know, or get a crt if it bothers you.

Smash4 has a 10 frame buffer though, so you shouldn't notice a small amount of input lag anyway.

Ok cool stuff. You just made it sound like "u hev 100000000 frames of input lag xddd rekt have a good one"
But as long as I don't feel it I'm good to go.
So thanks for the help.
I really appreciate it :D

 

[N1c2k3]

Narpas: Nothing I said was wrong. I said my explanation was simplified and there's many other elements to it that I intentionally left out so as not to bombard her. Also, I never said response time = input lag.


Console > Cable > Display

or

Console Graphics Card > Output Chip > Console Output Connectors > Cables > Display Input Connector > Input Chip > Screen

Sammy: All TV's "lag", even CRT's. Hooking up Smash4 on a bad HD TV will still be laggy if the response time is high, even though it natively supports HDMI. The questions is, how much do they lag? Good ones will have a response time so low that it is not discernible and therefore does not affect game play enough to matter.

If you have the resources to invest in a good LCD, I think it's worth it. Someone people would rather lug around old heavy CRT's because it makes them feel good, which I completely understand. In the end, if you just play with your friends and aren't worried about becoming competitive, then keep on enjoying playing on your setup. If you want to get competitive though, you will want to look into getting an optimal setup.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Narpas: Nothing I said was wrong. I said my explanation was simplified and there's many other elements to it that I intentionally left out so as not to bombard her. Also, I never said response time = input lag.

in which case you simplified it to the point that reading it makes it sound wrong.

For instance:

The WiiU natively outputs HD resolution, so the only delay you will experience is in the response time of your television, which on good tv's/monitors, shouldn't be noticeable, but on ones with higher response times, is...

 

[N1c2k3]

I apologize if I wasn't clear.

 

[Narpas_sword]

it's all good, it's just one of those things that seems to be a common misconception =)