pkt recovery help

[stealth3654]

It seems like every time that I try to recover with my pkt2 off the edge, someone runs into my pkt or just hit me before I can launch my attack . Are there any tips or tricks I can do to avoid this? Or is it just something I will just have to get use too.

 

[Tyr_03]

Don't use PKT when you're right next to the stage. With proper DI you can often avoid it altogether and use PKT safely. Adjust your timing so it doesn't get eaten by opponents. Don't use PKT unless you have to to recover. Just general tips. It takes some time to get used to.

 

[Earthbound360]

You get thunder eaten? Where are you using it? Right by the ledge?

Do NOT use it near the stage. That's just asking for eaten thunder. Also, just speed up you PKT2 process and fix the timing. If you time it just right, if someone tries to hit you out of it, you can PKTRE (check out my Melee Ness guide for PKT) them.

 

[Trapt497]

ugh i hate when someone jumps in front of it b/c I love using it near the ledge, especially in case the try to spkie or hit me back i can aim and pkt2 them...

Earthbound360 if ever, how do you use pkt2 as an attack?

And btw Ness pro Simna Ibn Sind uses pkt2 as an attack, not only recovery. Check out his combo vids on youtube if you want to see them.

 

[Earthbound360]

Wait, you cant hit with PKT2?

Three words

Mindgames!

With good mindgames (NoNNP has great ones that even trick a fellow Ness), you can hit with it a LOT. Tailwhipping almost always sets up for it at close range.

 

[Trapt497]

hmm. i hit with it sometimes but mostly i miss lol.

Is tailwhipping when the tail of pkt hits the mand they flinch? What are some other mindgames you like?

Thanks for helping me out. I really like ness and want to get better.

 

[Tyr_03]

Earthbound, have you been able to use the reverse edgeguard by sending the thunder in front and below you and back around for a diagonal down PKT2 to any effect? It's really handy with Lucas but I'm not using Ness much anymore so I don't know how practical it is for him.

 

[eHerbieInReverse]

Yes, that is tail whipping, Trapt. Tail whipping is also very useful for stunting people's recover. Tail whip them when they try to recover, they won't bounce up, like they do with the PKT Head, and will stall in the air.

Also, I use tail whipping the majority of the time I attack with PK thunder. It's just so useful. You can circle the opponent with a tail whip to rack up quick double-digit sized damage. And, the tail whip is good if the opponent is in the air (not recommended to take your PK thunder too high into the air because if it misses, you're stuck vulnerable) because if you guide your PK thunder right, such as following their decent, you can tail whip them even if they airdodge because the tail is quite long in Brawl.

Tail whips usually lead to a free PKTHead to the face or a PKT2/PK Missle/PK Rocket. haha. [:

Oh, and don't forget that you can ground your PKThunder if you find out you don't need it anymore, hopefully you'll rid yourself of it's lag before your opponent and remain unpunished. Or, you can even hit yourself vertically (on the floor) on the head with your own PKT to keep safe. It'll slam you into the floor with no damage taken, but you have the chance to use an invulnerable get-up move which is always nice; such as the kick or a roll to the side when they approach. All in all, just practice, practice, practice and experiment with PK Thunder. It's such a ridiculously useful move for Ness when used to its fullest potential; essential.

I hope I helped a little, Trapt.

Earthbound, have you been able to use the reverse edgeguard by sending the thunder in front and below you and back around for a diagonal down PKT2 to any effect? It's really handy with Lucas but I'm not using Ness much anymore so I don't know how practical it is for him.

Tyr_03, I hope you don't mind me replying to this, because I'm obviously not EB. But yeah, I've used it some times. It doesn't seem to work as much as I'd like it to anymore but that might just be because I attempted enough. Well, because of the floaty mechanics, I've even been able to reverse edge guard with an angle of PKT2 that actually goes away from the edge, land the hit (because they might try to airstall, the reverse angle helps pretty well), and still make it on land [: It's scary but I think it'll be worth practicing because it's easier to recover from now [:

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
Hmm yea that makes sense. With Ness I can see them being able to eat your thunder or get around it before you get the hit off. I think it's more useful for when they're a bit further away since you can catch people really offguard. Firing yourself up and away from the stage works pretty well with the floatiness but you have to watch out because Ness's PKT2 gets shortened when it hits people. Thanks for the input.

 

[eHerbieInReverse]

^^^
Firing yourself up and away from the stage works pretty well with the floatiness but you have to watch out because Ness's PKT2 gets shortened when it hits people.

Oh man, Tyr, I can't even believe how much I can testify to that. There have been so many times that my friend tries to Nair or Shine me when I'm recovering low. It's a fatal mistake on their side because they end up getting slammed against the bottom of the stage and to their doom because of PKT2. But yes, of course, they kill me in the process because I don't quite reach the ledge. Unfortunate.

I think they should've done this slowdown effect to Lucas instead of Ness, y'know, to balance it out. Hahaha.

 

[Trapt497]

thanks eHerbie, thanks a lot. This was helpful.

And the reverse edge-guard sounds sweet :D haha. But when would you want to do that if you could just spike??

 

[Tyr_03]

It's for when you're recovering and the opponent is trying to edgeguard you. Instead of them hitting you, you get to hit them. Hence the name.

 

[Earthbound360]

Tyr, Ness doesnt really need that maneuver. Just time a PKT2 recovery and you'll prety much do it automatically. People think that Ness is vulnerable during PKT, so they come in for the kill.

I havent done it that way yet, but when I am recovering from a high angle, I'll try that sometime.

Trapt, Im glad you are learning. Mindgames for PKT come in all shapes and sizes.
Pretend like you miss with PKT, they come in to lag punish, and you bring it back hoome for a PKT2 in their face.
Or, you can put it off screen. People also underestimate the speed of PKT.
Another one I like is floorblasting. They think they can always catch you in the lag of PKT2, but if you shoot into the floor, the lag is zero, and you can then use a flex kick as you get up. You're invincible, so the attack takes priority over everything.
What I LOVE to do online to Ike spammers (works on anyone charging up a strong attack in your face) is PKT2 right into them as they charge up a smash. They think "oh, I'll hit him as he comes to me" but since the early part of PKT2 has invincibility, they cant! Thats a PKT2 on THEM, and they usually die too XD

I could go on and on, but experimenting with Ness' PKT and PKT2 is what breathes life into his character.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol EB360 as much as I agree with and enjoy the fact that most people don't realize the insane priority that PKT2 has, eventually good players are going to catch on. They're also going to figure out how long it takes for your thunder to reach you and know to stay away when it gets too close.

And PKT2 doesn't have invincibility during any part of it. There's only a few invincibility frames as PKT1 is coming out. Ness's PKT2 just happens to have higher priority than almost any move in the game. The only way I've been able to stop an angled PKT2 from Ness is with a tailwhip.

Everything else you said still applies. Just pointing out some specifics.

 

[Earthbound360]

That's why you dont kee the thunder too far. That way, PKT can always become PKT2.
Also, even if they do know how fast PKT is, what will they do afterwards? Nothing right? Well at that point, they fear it, then even more mindgames can come in.

And I know for a fact that PKT2 DOES have invincibility. It did in Melee (I know, I have Action Replay)
If you really wanna try it, go to training mode, spawn a blst box, hit it with the bat one time, then PKT2 into it. Ness goes right through unharmed.

This doesnt apply to Lucas though, which is why you might have thought I was wrong if you tested it iwth him.

 

[Tyr_03]

Hmm I'm confused then. Because I've been able to tailwhip Ness's recovery almost immediately after PKT2 has started.

You know the fire things that appear on Pictochat? Lucas can go completely through those without taking any damage because the priority of PKT2 is high enough. However, if he's shot by Samus's charge shot he'll be hit away. With Ness if you shoot PKT2 straight into Samus's charge shot both moves cancel dealing no damage or knockback to Ness but ending PKT2. If he was invincible wouldn't PKT2 continue? Or are the invincibility frames just for the very very begining of it or something?

 

[Trapt497]

Ha thanks Earthbound I am learning. You certainly know a ton about ness. I love using ness, he is my third main right now, but I know little technical stuff with him and i think these types of threads can help me get better.

Tyr, I obviously am not as technical with Ness, but I thought of something when i read your post, interested that a samus charge shot canceled pkt2. Lemme give a comparison first (this may be a bad one, but whatever). I am a Lucario main. Lucario's side B force palm can reflect projectiles. But there is a whole entire list of diferent projectiles that lucario can or cannot reflect. And knowing if you can reflect a charge shot is obviously crucial.

So I was thinking maybe its the same with pkt2. Maybe Ness can go through some projectiles while he cannot go through others, like the charge shot in which both it and pkt2 are canceled out as you say.

Just a guess. Of course I will leave the educated answer for Earthbound360 the Ness masta lol.

 

[Tyr_03]

Trapt497 I find that highly unlikely for this situation because the same thing happens if you PKT2 directly into Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch. It stops both attacks. And either way if it was invincibility frames then the charge shot would cancel but PKT2 would continue unaffected. It almost has to be a matter of priority.

 

[Earthbound360]

^^^
If its priority, why can you PKT2 into a bomb and remain unharmed?
It was like that in Melee for sure (I could tell because Ness became blue hitboxed when used with AR and blue means invincible), so why would they take that away in Brawl when they wanna buff him?

Remember Tyr, its only invincible during the sweetspot (beggining) of PKT2.

Also, thanks trapt, but people need to stop overrating me. I am knowledgeable of Ness' advanced game, but I am no expert. I have actually been decaying in skill lateley. I've been getting myself killed in stupid situations (like surviving a smash, but overestimating my recovery distance or PK Flashing off the edge).

I always get PMs asking for someone to play me. Its flattering really, but MKWii has been diluting my skill. Sorry guys, go to someone else for games for now

 

[Trapt497]

Hmm ok just a suggestion. Earthbound what do you think?

EDIT: oops sorry Earthbound posted right when I was typing up mine. Didnt see it. Ignore post.

 

[Earthbound360]

Just posted above

 

[Trapt497]

yeah i know sorry about that.

And dont worry everyone does that kind of stuff in stupid situations ha. Sorry about overrating.

 

[Tyr_03]

I'm not entirely sure EB360. I understand where you're coming from but invincibility frames just don't add up for this. Take for example Green Greens. Lucas can shoot through those bomb blocks completely unscathed as well as Ness. So if you're saying earlier that he doesn't have invincibility frames for that then that doesn't make sense unless he is outprioritizing the explosions. I've also shot Lucas through an entire smart bomb before with PKT2 without taking damage or knockback. This obviously was for more than just the begining of it.

And I'm sure I've hit Ness with Samus's charged shot at the very begining of his PKT2 and had both moves cancel. In fact I just retested it to be sure. If there were invincibility frames then PKT2 would not cancel. I really think this is something that has changed from Melee. Rather than having invincibility frames I think they just gave it ridiculous priority that can outdo most things. PKT2's priority does decrease after a bit for both Lucas and Ness so that might give you the illusion of invincibility frames at first and going away after the sweetspot. The high priority part of it just lasts long enough to outprioritize the entirety of explosions and such. I'm pretty confident on this one.

 

[Earthbound360]

Hmm... well, how about you try using Dins Fire on Ness and Lucas during PKT2. Since that move ignores priority, it should reveal who is correct and whether one or both of them have invincibility or not.

Man, looks like PKT is still a science

 

[Tyr_03]

Din's Fire ignores priority? Hmm never knew that. I've gotten Link to grab Ness out of PKT2. Shouldn't that ignore priority too? Not positive if that was at the begining of it though. Ugh more testing.

 

[Earthbound360]

When did he grab him?

Im pretty sure attacks like Flash, freeze, and Dins fire ignore priority since they detonate.

 

[Tyr_03]

YOU WERE RIGHT. Well atleast I think so. There's still one somewhat major inconsistancy but here's what I've tested. First of all, by going into training mode and giving one player a starman I was able to prove that it is completely impossible for a character to grab Ness during the begining of his PKT2. My next test which is what I'm really proud of is that after realizing that push back attacks like Mario's FLUDD don't have any effect on characters with a starman, I was able to plainly see just how long you actually have invincibility frames with PKT2. You can check this yourself. It's a pretty brief window.

Naturally I next tested with Lucas. Lucas has no invincibility frames on PKT2 just as you described. Interestingly enough, Lucas's PKT2 actually gets cancelled by FLUDD while Ness's doesn't, making Ness much more gimpable by comparison. Oh yeah and to make matters worse for Ness, FLUDD water cancels PKT1 for Ness but doesn't cancel Lucas's. So basically FLUDD is gimptastic against Ness. Hopefully the Mario players don't realize this.

Building on this idea of a more visual way to see invincibility frames, I tested the invincibility frames as PKT1 is coming out. Pushing Ness or Lucas with FLUDD when they just stand there pushes them just the slightest bit further than if they use PKT1 while being sprayed. The difference is very small but it is there which is further evidence for the very few invincibility frames there.

But of course this testing first started with detonating attacks. Detonating attacks in Brawl do NOT ignore priority. Din's Fire has no effect on Ness during any point of PKT2. This explains why we were able to travel through explosions with both Lucas and Ness's PKT2s. They simply have greater priority. This is a pretty major difference from Melee.

The one single inconsistancy with all this is still Samus's charge shot. The charge shot still stops PKT2 no matter when it hits. The only thing that will affect it is your PKT2 angle. This makes no sense if there are invincibility frames. The charge shot should stop when it hits you and have no effect on PKT2 and yet it does. I even tested it on other characters to see if it was just Samus's move that was weird but it's not consistent. If you shoot a newly spawned Fox doing his Up B the charge shot cancels and Fox continues with his move. Obviously with no invincibility frames the charge shot outprioritizes Fox's Up B. I am completely clueless as to why this is happening. It follows no logic at all.

In conclusion, I think they must be invincibility frames...I can only assume Samus's charge shot is some sort of weird glitch in that it doesn't follow the rules on this one move. Of course there is the possibility that there are other moves that do the same thing but we probably won't know until we get hit with it. And watch out for Mario because he has ridiculous gimp powers against Ness. Hooray for progress.

 

[eHerbieInReverse]

You know what I just thought about? Tyr's last post got me thinking. Thinking about the inconsistencies. Okay, call me crazy, but it seems like they did this inconsistent prioritizing because of the elements!

Here me out:
Mario's FLUDD (Water) > Ness PKT2 (Electric)
Samus' Charge Shot (Electric?) = Ness PKT2 (Electric) So they cancel.
Fire Fox (Fire) > Samus Charge Shot (Electric?)
PKT (Electric) = Pikachu's Bouncing Thunder (Electric) so they cancel.
PKF (Fire) > Pikachu's Bouncing Thunder (Electric)

I know that the elements of these attacks might be reading too much into the finer details of this game but it's worth a shot.

Also, I'd like to play some of you guys some time. I haven't had the pleasure of playing anyone from Smashboards yet and I'd love to haha.


P.S. Another tip-of-the-trade about PKT just for the hell of it: Use PKT/2 occasionally if they approach with a predictable Air attack. Your PKT should head upwards, tail whip them (if you got it off early enough), and be directed the opposite direction from them and back into Ness. If it works, they just got their Air approach countered with devestating returns; PKMissle to the face.

 

[Tyr_03]

eHerbie, the only problem with your element analysis of it is that FLUDD water does not cancel Lucas's PK Thunder which is also an electric attack. Also if Ness's PKT2 is moving at an angle toward Samus's charge shot rather than straight into it then it doesn't cancel. Because of these two facts I think it's pretty unlikely that it is related to the element. Plus regardless of the element, if Ness has invincibility frames there shouldn't be any effect at all from the attack.

 

[eHerbieInReverse]

Yeah, it was kind of just, a spur-of-the-moment thought. I really don't know whether Ness has those invincibility frames or not. I would test but I've been so busy lately.

Hell, it could just be that the developers added these inconsistencies as they saw fit instead of having a consistent rule. Perhaps each of these differences in priorities were specifically programmed instead of being an effect of a strange algorithm or formula? We'll have to keep testing.

 

[Earthbound360]

Hmm... probably nothing too helpful, but Tyr, I thought I'd just remind you that there are 2 types of invincibility.

Tangible: Like when you get off a recovery platform when you respawn. Projectiles that hit you dissappear and characters that hit you get hitlag.

Intangible: Like when you dodge. Projectiles and attacks go right through you as if you werent even there.

Maybe the charge shot has multiple hitboxes? And when are you hitting Ness, early in the move?
Remember, everything we are discussing here about PKT2 stuff has to take place at the very start.

 

[Tyr_03]

Yeah it's at the very start of it. I've tried just about every timing to be sure. This must be tangible because things like Samus's missiles explode when they hit it and FLUDD's water hits it but just doesn't knock him back at all during the invincibility frames. It certainly looks like the shot only has the one hitbox because it stops PKT2 IMMEDIATELY as it hits. I've tried it like 50 different times and always gotten the same result. If it's at the begining of PKT2 both attacks cancel. If it's at a later point in PKT2 Ness takes damage and knockback. If Ness is shooting upward at an angle, the charge shot is cancelled but PKT2 continues. I'm completely confused by it.

 

[Earthbound360]

I hate Samus
Lol j/k

Man, this really has me baffled too. Maybe Ness gets invincilbility AND high priority, but the invincibility is intagible. The hitbox however, is not, and when you attack it with an attack with super high priority, it cancel the hitbox and takes Ness out of the move cancelling his invincibility?

Sorry if that was hard to follow.

 

[Tyr_03]

Well I just found out Falcon Punch does the same thing. Cancels PKT2 even at the very begining. But the thing with the high priority bit is that I went back tried tailwhipping Ness at the very begining of PKT2 and the thunder goes right through him not canceling PKT2. Why would Falcon Punch cancel PKT2 but not a tailwhip? So...confused....

I'm not as sure about whether it's tangible or not now. But I know FLUDD or Water Gun water doesn't go through him but just hits and does nothing. But it would make sense that it's just cancelling on the hitbox anyway.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ohh... I dont know! Your making my brain hurt! AUGH!!!!

Well, all we need to know is that super powerful moves stop PKT2 but dont hurt Ness

 

[Tyr_03]

lol true. And in anycase all of this can be avoided by just doing a shallow angle SAM. At an angle there is absolutely no move in the game (that we're aware of) that will do a thing to Ness during his invincibility frames.

 

[Earthbound360]

I love how you use the PKT guide terms I made.
It makes me feel like the effort was well done

 

[Trapt497]

can I have a link to that guide earthbound?

also good job figuring out these different pkt2 details guys.