Phantom hits in P:M ?

[fennel69]

Hi Smashboards !

2 weeks ago, I had a little PM tournament and I decide to pick up Falco on the last match. I tried to shine ADA edgeguard on Mewtwo's comeback and my ADA has gived damage but the knockback hasn't been applied. I wondered if there is phantom hits or something like on PM ?

18:10 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DAsarZ-yWk

Thanks !

 

[Mera Mera]

In that video, the reason it seemed to take "no knockback" is because in PM and in Melee, if someone is hit with a hitbox and then a second hitbox more than 10 later, then the knockback vectors combine. Since you hit with shine which hits upwards and then daired him before the knockback ended but more than 10 frames later, he took a weak downwards and out knockback.

(10 frames is a sixth of a second to get an idea of how long it is (60 frames/second)).

This is actually quite useful when Falco is comboing, since the slow downward knockback allows him to land before the opponent in order to up tilt or shine again. I'm not sure if falco shine -> dair fast in under 10 frames for an edgeguard, but you might be able to delay your dair until knockback is over.

If you want to see a good example of this outside of Falco, see Ganondorf's down smash. The angle the second kick hits you at is very different from the angle it hits you at if you are first hit by the first kick.

As for phantom hits, there's something like that where if your hitbox touches your opponent's hurtbox (without overlapping), you'll see sparks and they take like 1 or 2 damage but no knockback. So yeah, it does exist but this isn't an example of it.

*Edited after Drinkingfood corrected me*

 

[fennel69]

Okay thanks for the explanation !

 

[DrinkingFood]

in PM and in Melee, if someone is hit with a hitbox and then a second hitbox 10 frames or less later, then the knockback vectors combine. Since you hit with shine which hits upwards and then quickly daired him less than or equal to ten frames later, he took a weak downwards and out knockback.

You actually have your facts backwards. Knockback vectors are only combined when they are applied after ten frames have passed (and if they are opposing directions). Knockback vectors of hits landed within ten frames of each other replace previous vectors. If you want strong knockback on the dair of a shine->dair, you actualy have to do it very quickly. It's a small-ish window because of this, maybe somewhere between 3-5 frames for a strong knockback dair out of an aerial shine. After ten frames you get a much weaker knockback dair, which is what makes his combos so easy and guaranteed is the large window afterwards that extends to the end of hitstun.

 

[Mera Mera]

You actually have your facts backwards. Knockback vectors are only combined when they are applied after ten frames have passed (and if they are opposing directions). Knockback vectors of hits landed within ten frames of each other replace previous vectors. If you want strong knockback on the dair of a shine->dair, you actualy have to do it very quickly. It's a small-ish window because of this, maybe somewhere between 3-5 frames for a strong knockback dair out of an aerial shine. After ten frames you get a much weaker knockback dair, which is what makes his combos so easy and guaranteed is the large window afterwards that extends to the end of hitstun.

Oh **** yeah you're right. My bad. DrinkingFood is right @ fennel69
Everything I said was right if you switch it to greater than 10 frames (and the character must also still be in knockback) means vectors will combine.

 

[fennel69]

Ok ok thanks I will make some tests for myself