Meta Peach Moveset Discussion: Jab

[Meru.]

At the very beginning of Smash 4, we had a thread dedicated to discussing every move of Peach individually. Moveset discussions are helpful in that they allow us to learn fundamental things about her moves that you would not have been mentioned in other discussions. Unfortunately, the moveset discussion got discontinued and we only discussed like.. two moves.

So, I have decided to reopen the Moveset Discussion. We will discuss every move individually, focusing on its strengths and it weaknesses. What does this move have that makes it stand out? What makes you want to use this move, or avoid using it? In what situation do you use it? What is the best way to use this move (for example, is this move stronger when floated, or short-hopped, or pivoted)? etc etc.

As you can see, the first post of the Tactical Discussion is a total mess! I would like to edit the OP of the Tactical Discussion one section at a time, using your input to give an overview of every move she has (and also make the post itself prettier, it's really ugly ). Consider it something like a group guide.

The discussion will move at a pretty fast pace. When the discussion of a move dies down, I'll immediately move to next one (which is usually about three-four days). If you are too late with contributing to the discussion of move A and we have already moved on to move B, while you still want to post your thoughts on move A, do feel free to do so!

So without any further ado, let's discuss! I shall start the discussion by giving my own write-up first (also using some stuff in Macchiato's guide).

 

[Meru.]

Neutral Air​

Peach spins around in the air. This move comes out pretty fast and has low landing lag, making it one of her safest options on shield. It's one of her fastest out of shield options and is great at punishing. You’re likely going to be using this move a lot, especially its ground float variant.

Strengths:

· Low start-up and low landing lag. Ground Float Nair is only -2 on shield! If you space it well, or float a bit backwards before landing you should be safe. Vs. opponent who do not react quick enough you can sometimes even get a grab of a shielded Nair! If you expect your opponent to grab, jabbing them might be a good idea, or land outside their grab range and punish their whiffed grab.

· Ground Float Nair combos into a dash attack or follows up into a grab.

· Decently strong.

· Hitboxes cover her whole body. Against character who like to full hop or stay airborne a lot, shorthopping or fullhopping Nair can be a pretty good option.

· Good OoS option. It’s fast and hits both behind as well as in front of her. In order to increase its range, float pressing forward (or backward, depending on where your opponent stands) AND down at the same time, instead of only down. You will float a bit towards your opponent while doing Nair. If you do it will, ground float Nair OoS has more range than jab or grab OoS (it’s a bit slower though)

· Long duration.

Weaknesses

· Lacks a little bit in therange department. This move will have to be used in close quarter combat. Another good option is dashing towards your opponent and then do a ground float Nair, but unlike moves such as Fair or Bair, you will be throwing yourself to your opponent.

Combos From: Down Tilt, Down Air, Up Air
Combos To: Jab, Dash Attack
Remember: Down Air → Neutral Air, Neutral Air → Grab, Down Tilt → Neutral Air, Neutral Air → Jab, Neutral Air → Dash Attack
Frame Data:
Active Frames: 5-19 FAF: 49 Max Damage: 13% Landing Lag Frames: 11

 

[Awesomecakes]

I like this thread idea

Nair is great as a combo started/extender. As a combo starter, early percents link into grabs. Though certain ranges are not true comboes, many instances happen where you'll knock them just out of reach and the enemy will land on the ground and shield or you catch the landing lag, thats why grab works, the mixup is down tilt if they are mashing an attack, you can outspace aerials or sometimes they'll mash jab or something to snuff your dash-grab. At later percents, the weak hit will combo into stuff much like the strong hit will at early percents, though requires more precision.

I tend to use this as a mixup out of down air pressure with a JCFF Nair. This either catches someone doing a slightly slow oos option if you're using it on shield, or outspacing an oos option. JCFF makes it pretty safe-ish on shield, though I don't quite understand when or when it isn't I feel like sometimes its competely safe and sometimes it isn't? could be either matchup dependant in that some characters have better oos options, or something to do with spacing/height of when the move comes down. It can also be landed from outspacing stuff in neutral. A habit of mine is to punish mis-spaced grounded options like tilts or smashes by going above them with Dair, but there are times where this is too slow, and a JCFF Nair will do the trick since it'll go above the move, and come down faster to then start the combo.

as a combo extender, you can use it around the 20% ish range to knock them not too far away from you, though you'll have to read how they react to getting hit. After a Dair, particularly on heavies a nair will send them a little away and they'll fall to the ground where you can read if they throw out an attack, just shield, or jump. at higher percents/ on floatier characters, the principle is the same where you read if they'll throw out an attack, jump or airdodge etc...

In neutral, you can use it as an air-air option if you read a jump. It comes out fast and will snuff out a variety of things. I like this since I do have a Dair habit, but I've learned to mixup with short-hop Nair when people see that I jump and they'll think they can come at me from the side for a punish. I also used to have a problem dealing with empty-hops till I started using this option, though I think Bair is better for this.

The move doesn't have great range, but its fast and not really laggy on landing. Can also be used to hit certain projectiles safey like lloid rocket.

 

[Meru.]

I like this thread idea

At later percents, the weak hit will combo into stuff much like the strong hit will at early percents, though requires more precision.

Yup, weak Nair > Dash Attack is a combo at certain percents. You can sometimes also follow up a weak Nair hit with a grab.

I tend to use this as a mixup out of down air pressure with a JCFF Nair. This either catches someone doing a slightly slow oos option if you're using it on shield, or outspacing an oos option. JCFF makes it pretty safe-ish on shield, though I don't quite understand when or when it isn't I feel like sometimes its competely safe and sometimes it isn't? could be either matchup dependant in that some characters have better oos options, or something to do with spacing/height of when the move comes down. It can also be landed from outspacing stuff in neutral. A habit of mine is to punish mis-spaced grounded options like tilts or smashes by going above them with Dair, but there are times where this is too slow, and a JCFF Nair will do the trick since it'll go above the move, and come down faster to then start the combo.

It depends on when you land. If you land right after you hit their shield with Nair, you're only -2 and jab will beat their grab. If you Nair their shield when you're still pretty high above the ground, it will take longer to land in addition to taking landing lag, so you'll be unsafer. Optimally, you would like to fastfall during the 4 start-up frames of Nair to hit them with the hit on the 5th frame right before you land.

The move doesn't have great range, but its fast and not really laggy on landing. Can also be used to hit certain projectiles safey like lloid rocket.

It can? That's really cool, since it also clashes with slingshot! I will try this next time I fight a Villager.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Uh what move is next? May I request Dtilt

 

[Meru.]

Uh what move is next? May I request Dtilt

Sorry for my inactivity, I have been a bit busy lately.

I was planning to do her aerials first, but if you want to discuss Dtilt, sure. I also still have to do a write-up on her aerials yet hehe

Down tilt​

Down Tilt:Peach does a low slap at her opponent's feet. The amount of hitstun this move has is pretty ridiculous making this an amazing combo starter. At high percents, this can lead to a Fair or Uair for the kill.

Strengths

· This move is one of the most ranged of her ground attacks, making it a very decent spacing tool against grounded opponents.

· This move has the least lag out of all of her ground attacks. It is only -8 on shield, so well spaced you're totally safe!

· It has intangible frames on her arm when she sticks it out, so her arm functions similarly to a disjointed hitbox. (Be aware that it can clash though, similar to how disjointed hitboxes can).

· The reward on this move is great. Because of the hitstun, you are always guaranteed to get a follow-up till quite high percents.
At lower percents, Dtilt combos into ground floating Nair, which can be followed up by moves such as a Grab > Dthrow > Bair or by a Dash Attack. It can also combo into Dair combos for big damage. If you're a fan of death combos, it also combos into her Uair string to death. Really, this thing combos into EVERYTHING at low percent.
At mid percents, it can combo into an aerial of your choice.
At higher percents, Dtilt to Fair may work if they don't get launched too high, but Uair is usually the more reliable choice. Furthermore, Dtilt > Parasol is a training mode combo, but your opponent can airdodge before Parasol connects. Consider this a 50/50 similar to Sheik's Dthrow > Uair. If you expect an airdodge, wait for it and then do UpB. If you expect them not to airdodge, UpB right away. UpB can kill very early with rage, so keep that in mind!

Weaknesses

· Hitting on frame 13, it comes out pretty late.

· Only hits grounded opponents.

Note:

Combos From: Nothing
Combos To: EVERYTHING
Remember:Down Tilt → Ground Float Neutral Air, Down Tilt → Up Air, Down Tilt → Forward Air, Down Tilt → Down Air, Down Tilt → Parasol, Uair Spike > Dtilt

Frame Data:
7%
Active Frames: 13-14 Arm Intangibility: 9-14
FAF: 28
Shield advantage OoS: -8

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Agreed Dtilt is SUCH an amazing move, combos into everything and can lead to a kill confirm at certain percents I think.
It's frame 13 though? Wow I thought it was like 11, that is quite slow.
Whatever it has so many pros it doesn't matter much to me.
I just hope it never changes in the fact that it only seems to meteor grounded opponents, which is why its hitstun is huge, but on Ariel opponents that's another story xD

Anyways its a great tool and people should use it very often.

 

[Awesomecakes]

OH actually this is a great time to bring this up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoaJ1b6_140

With peach's JCFF Nair done at the right time, you get a lagless Nair on hit. Though its not really viable, if done properly Nair true comboes into D-tilt from about 0-20% on most characters.

I also still use it at a mixup when I get a Nair at low percents. If I nair and know they'll shield I'll grab, if they've shown that they'll throw out an attack I'll Dtilt.

Also if someone airdodges or mashes an attack out of early down throw comboes, you can throw in a Dtilt to extend the combo.

 

[Kojirou]

If your opponent techs in place after you use down tilt is it viable to keep using down tilt? Do they get up in time to power shield the next down tilt after teching in place?

 

[Royal_Tea]

Dtilt is also good as an edgeguard setup on characters that have slow or readable recoveries like Captain Falcon. You can Dtilt right at the ledge > shorthop > F-air. It has strict timing if the opponent sweet spots the ledge, but has a good reward and is easy to connect if they don't sweet spot the ledge. I think it works the easiest on DK, Captain Falcon, Kirby, Villager, and sometimes Sheik.

 

[Meru.]

I wasn't sure whether I should start discussion of a new move since things have been inactive here, but let's try it. Discussing jab.

Jab
​

Jab:Peach does a quick two-hit slap. Jab hits on frame 2, which means it’s one of the fastest moves in the game and the fastest move she has. Jab 2 puts your opponent far enough for you to catch your breath, but close enough to continue pressuring them. Unlike many other jabs however, jab1 cannot safely combo into a grab or other moves.

Strengths

· Due to its fast start-up, this move is excellent to get people of you. If you feel you’re getting pressured a lot, using this move will help you a lot.

· You can use it after other attack that is barely safe, such as Nair, Pan or Usmash. When you feel your opponent will attempt to punish you while you’re actually, using jab will slap them out of their attempt. Especially Nair > Jab is used often because you can beat their grabs if they’re just a little bit too late with their (grab) punish.

· When getting approached, especially by a fast character, jab may stop their approaching attempts.

Weaknesses

· Compared to many other jabs, its range is poor.

· Laggy. You can something get away unpunished if you space it perfectly, but otherwise you will usually get shieldgrabbed.

Combos From:Neutral Air
Combos To:N/A
Remember: Ground Float Neutral Air → Jab
Frame Data:
Jab1 Active Frames: 2-3 FAF: 28 2%
Jab2 Active Frames: 2-3 FAF: 30 3%

 

[adlp]

i'm just disappointed jab1 to grab isnt in the game

 

[itrombe]

Jab1+jab2 are great when only the first hit of dash attack connects. Otherwise, eeeehhhhhh.

 

[IvanPch]

does anyone know if you still can make people fall fast with Down tilt in ledge like in Brawl? i've been trying to do it but no luck so far.

 

[Meru.]

does anyone know if you still can make people fall fast with Down tilt in ledge like in Brawl? i've been trying to do it but no luck so far.

You can't spike them, if that's what you mean

 

[Phan7om]

You can't spike them, if that's what you mean

I thought that too, but a long while ago I saw a video of it actually spiking. Lemme see if I can find it.

Edit: This

Idk if thats real, or if it has to do with the Wario air grounded state stuff that his bike does, or what.

 

[IvanPch]

Phan7om interesting thats exactly how it was on Brawl i wonder if it works for any character :o

 

[Meru.]

I thought that too, but a long while ago I saw a video of it actually spiking. Lemme see if I can find it.

Edit: This

Idk if thats real, or if it has to do with the Wario air grounded state stuff that his bike does, or what.

Yes, it's probably a glitch specfic to Wario.

For thos who do not know this glitch: Peach's Dtilt spikes grounded opponents, which causes them launch up and be in a lot of hitstun. This is also the reason why they can tech the hit. It does not spike aerial opponents.

Wario has a glitch where his aerial state becomes hit grounded state. This means that things like Falcon's Dair will not spike him anymore if he's in the air, because the game things Wario is in his grounded state. With Peach it works the other way around. She will spike Wario because the game thinks he is in a grounded state.

Only in this very specfic scenario will Dtilt spike. Otherwise, it will not.