Peach Matchup

[kofinater]

Just watched Hamyojo vs Infinity and all my frustration about this MU came to me, so here is a thread to discuss this match up in a similar fashion to Kimimaru's thread. Also I think after this we should do 1 of these every week from the top of the tier list down.

1. Stages/CPing
2. Positioning
3. Neutral game
4. Punish game
5. Combo starters/combos/finishers
6. Mixups

Thoughts?

 

[hamyojo]

This MU ****ing sucks. Play another character.

 

[Dinowulf]

This MU ****ing sucks. Play another character.

This match can't be that impossible can it hamyojo?

I've been thinking about this quite a bit to. far as everything goes. Just went to a tournament this weekend and almost made it into top 3 out of 29 people only to be stopped by a peach. I'll help out i def want to learn how to beat this matchup.

1. Stage picking i think battlefield is a really good stage to fight peach on. Which BF being a neutral start to begin with Yoshi's flutter jump takes him all the way to the top platform while Peach cannot reach it through a jump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iGB_5LFBAE (Example of said matchup) Granted this is westballz fighting armada here but the same properties should be the same for yoshi vs peach in this fact.

The only issue with this plan however is getting the early kill on peach then playing this way to camp her out for the entire duration of the game. Yoshi's egg toss (as good as it is in this game) cannot hit peach with the same priority that Falco can.

 

[MrHazuki]

I get furious when Peach-players imply that this is not AT LEAST a 99-1 matchup. Everything about this is ********.

Best pick: FD. Platforms don't really help Yoshi here. The spacing game is actually quite equal.
Worst pick: FoD. Destruction.
Peach is more of a tank than Yoshi, which in all other MUs is Yoshi's prime feature. She hits so hard with almost no lag (fast L-cancels, floatcancels).
It is often much better to lightshield an aerial and just glide away. Shield drops are as always vital to get, but they don't give that much.
When recovering, just like a CF would do, go high. Aim either for the edge with fastfall/down-B, or far onto the stage where she can't reach you with her limited jump speed.
One major pain is how to deal with the dashattack. Shieldgrab should work if you grab ASAP, and she doesn't go through.
It is a lot easier to DA through Yoshi because of his low hard-shield traction. If you recon she would go through with hard shield, weak lightshield to shieldgrab is possible. I bet a decent Peach (DoH-level maybe) could go dashattack only and play even with aMSa.

 

[Dinowulf]

Hell i have a peach player in my town who ******* about Yoshi's back air doing as much damage as maybe 30% while he can spam Dsmash (UNCHARGED) and do potientially up to 60-70%. Ugh i hate noob peach players.

 

[Dinowulf]

Anyways back on topic. This shouldn't be a rant discussion we should be thinking how to beat her. This matchup def requires a lot of camping but i'm trying to think if there is a option that we can do to mixup the camping game. Would we have to Aim our Eggs low and nair (high) or what. I mean if someone has something let me know.

 

[MrHazuki]

One thing that really helps is to parry-wd or parry-sh her turnips. Crouching helps.

 

[Pabmyster]

Perhapsman, peanutphobia and I were talking about the viability of egg lay in this MU. I have yet to thoroughly test it, but from what we've theorized, DJC egg lay and other surprise egg lay maneuvers may be really beneficial in this MU. Of course, it can't be too predictable, but egg lay might be extremely helpful in the neutral as a mixup, as Yoshi can use it as a pseudo grab in the air, and tack on free percent. It doesn't leave him as vulnerable as regular grab, allows Yoshi to snag Peach out of her float height, and also puts Peach in the air above Yoshi, which is arguably the best position to be in. A really good mixup I see aMSa utilize is
shield drop --> DJC egg lay, or even a b-reverse variant of djc egg lay.

Positioning vs. Peach seems to be best at a diagonal away from her when she is floating above you, as it is out of her float cancel nair/fair range, and gives you options to bait her moves and go in. It is also good for Yoshi to be directly below Peach when she is in the air, as she has bad aerial priority underneath her, and Yoshi can cover this with his invincible head on usmash, and juggle her with uair.

I've found the most success in this matchup playing a runaway egg camping game, as it seems peach has a hard time maneuvering through egg toss if she can't handle it properly. Then again, camping eggs gives her plenty of time to pull turnips, but they don't seem too terrifying with parry and djc armor. Still, this is a painful and oftentimes long and strenuous MU, and Peach definitely has the advantage. If we could give this MU a good crack (ha! eggs. crack... yeah that was bad) then I would feel a lot more confident.

 

[Sashimi]

I play this matchup at least once a week vs the local peach main. I currently think it's Yoshi's worst matchup, but I also feel like Yoshi has some strong options in it.

What seems to me to be so tough about this matchup is not that you can't do anything vs Peach, but rather that it's easy to make the wrong choice and get punished hard for it.

Spoiler: 1. Stages/CPing

Yoshi's Story: Best in my opinion. Easy to KO Peach on this stage, excellent platform movement and Peach is almost never far enough to safely pull a turnip.

FD: better in this matchup than most for Yoshi. Low-ish ceiling, lots of room to move around if you need it, and Peach players love to control space by threatening aerials while floating (see below for why you want Peach to try this).

Pokémon Stadium: Like FD but with a lower ceiling and you can get good Usmash opportunities with the platforms. The transformations suck for Yoshi in my opinion, but that could just be me.

Battlefield: Okay in this matchup, but I'd prefer the ones above. The only thing this stage has over FD and Stadium is better platform layout. I suppose the ledge is also not great for Peach but I don't see that being significant vs good Peach players.

Dream Land: Not great unless you feel like camping a lot. I wouldn't risk it even if Yoshi is the faster character.

FoD: My mind tells me this stage sucks in this matchup, but my eyes are telling me that I somehow land a million Nairs on this stage. This stage always works better for me than I think it will, but I'll probably never counterpick here anyway. The platform layout is definitely a double-edged sword.

Spoiler: 2. Positioning

My goal in this matchup is mainly to get Peach in the air. Float cancelled aerials are NOT safe on parry despite the fact that they autocancel, as long as you're fast enough with the punish. Bair also stuffs FC Fair attempts, and Dtilt can punish Peach's landing from a float. More importantly, Peach can't crouch cancel, dash attack, Dsmash or pull turnips while in the air, and she risks getting hit by Uair or Usmash if she's too high up. Peach certainly has options while in the air vs Yoshi, but I currently think this is the best way to go about the matchup.

I try to accomplish this by discouraging Peach's grounded options.
- DJC Egg Lay can catch her dashdancing and literally force her in the air when she's out of the egg, especially if the egg lands on a platform
- Dtilt is as good for outspacing her grounded options as it is against her aerial options
- Peach's Dash Attack loses to dashdancing, retreating DJC Egg Lay, crouch cancel, shield grab and parrying
- If the Peach player is using too much CC Dsmash, Nair her (or anything to bait the Dsmash) and shieldgrab the Dsmash
- Stay close enough to discourage turnip pulls, and when Peach does pull a turnip, remember that she loses CC options and OoS options.

Spoiler: 3. Neutral game

Mostly related to #2.

I think Yoshi has better movement and doesn't lose to the same "my moves beat yours and you also can't shield them" vortex that Peach likes to set up vs other characters. Obviously her moves still beat most of Yoshi's (except Uair and Usmash which are amazing), but nearly everything she has is unsafe on parry, and Peach definitely isn't used to worrying about her aerials being blocked and punished.

The neutral game changes significantly when Peach has a turnip. I think one part of this that gets overlooked is that some of her defensive options (shield and crouch cancel) are less effective. When I'm actually playing I usually don't accomplish much against Peach with turnip aside from getting hit by the turnip and getting safely back to neutral, but I have a few hunches. Properly timed SH Bair might beat weak turnips and hit Peach if she's in the air when throwing it. Beware when parrying turnips, because Peach can throw the turnip slightly behind you instead of right at you. This is meant to cut off any retreat you might be planning. Also, don't be afraid to pressure Peach if she shields with a turnip. You have quite a few ways to beat the turnip toss OoS, including high DJC mixup (jumps over turnip) and parrying the turnip OoS.

Other than that, the turnip part of the matchup is the part I understand the least. I think it's best to prevent Peach from pulling too many turnips.

Remember that if you do catch a turnip, you can throw it OoS and you have no shieldstun.

Crouch cancelling at the wrong time will kill you, but I think it still needs to be used. Notable examples include Dash Attack and Jab, but there are others, I'm sure. SOMETIMES her float cancels will lose to CC if she intends to follow up with something other than grab or Dsmash, but you all know how risky this is.

As I said earlier, get Peach in the air, whether it's from a combo, from egg lay, or just Peach deciding she doesn't want to be grounded anymore. Bair, Uair, Egg Toss and Usmash all become much better when Peach is in the air.

Never never never never get hit out of a DJC. You will get Dsmashed at 0% and lose your stock and that is why this matchup is stupid.

Spoiler: 4. Punish game and 5. Combo starters

Yoshi combos Peach like any other character.

- Best combo starter at 0% is Fair as always. Leads to a free tumble from Utilt (or two) and puts Peach above you. At high % it leads to Uair for the KO
- Egg Lay can set up some neat traps with a combination of Egg Toss/Uair/Bair and doesn't lose to crouch cancel, even if you get no follow up
- Wall Peach out with Egg Toss, Uair and Usmash whenever you can
- Shortly after 25%, DJC Nair combos into itself à la Fox Nairplane if Peach DIs in. It's easy enough to do on reaction and you can do other things if she DIs away (less guaranteed, but you at least get space to work with)
- Bair becomes safe whenever Peach is in the air or even grounded at higher %. Sometimes combos into itself or a quick Nair to send Peach offstage at high %
- Uair chains at the right % work as always. Don't be afraid to use Uair's priority if the Uair won't combo

Peach doesn't seem to get anything really scary off of a grab until Fthrow at high %, but you should still watch out for some stuff like FC aerials into things and anything that leads to Dsmash. Peach can break your armor better than some characters while recovering and has good ways to harass you by the ledge. Recover high whenever possible.

Spoiler: 6. Mixups

Platform stuff works if Peach is trying to control the wrong space. Nair, Bair and Fair are all useful

If Peach shields, you have a million ways to pressure it. DJC Nair or Uair pressure will encourage panic OoS options which lose to Parry, Ftilt, Dsmash, Jab (don't jab when you can do other things), sometimes Dtilt, and dash away

Shield dropping is good but watch out for waveland grab and Dsmash

When you're on the ledge, make sure you don't only use eggs. Spamming Peach's Dsmash at the ledge is much easier than spamming edge-cancelled eggs, and ECEs often lose to Dsmash spam anyway. If Peach insists on harassing you at the ledge, you can get out of the situation with a proper waveland or punish her for going too close with an aerial interrupt > attack

 

[kofinater]

Fantastic writeup, said everything i was preparing to say plus some. One thing i want to add for punishes is that UpB to upair will kill around 120. I think getting dsmashed out of nair encapsulates everything with this MU, you won't get super hard punishes so for a while you'll be out moving peach and feel fairly in control by getting small hits here and then one stray down smash sends you off stage and backwards so you can't even air dodge to ledge.

 

[kofinater]

ok so i've been watching Amsa vs peach and he goes for this waveland djc bair occasionally and the last hit usually pops peach up nicely for a decent follow up. http://www.gfycat.com/UncomfortableFlickeringBarasingha .

 

[Sashimi]

I think waveland DJC bair is awesome in general for covering space that Fair/Nair won't, and I want to learn to do it more. I like what aMSa is doing there!

 

[Dinowulf]

I've been practicing a bit against peach in training mode and notice that if i Fair L cancel + Short Hop + Dair. I can almost always get her to about 110-115%. I've tried to L cancel the dair after that and even after successfully doing it (Using 20xx to make sure i did) I still can't do anything afterwards. Am i pressing something wrong or do i need to use the press the C Stick and analog stick to finish with the down smash.

 

[MrHazuki]

Dair is a really tough move to use. I never use it on stage without edgecancel.

 

[Dinowulf]

I've been playing around with 20xx for the last couple of days i can confirm that You can connect a Fair > L cancel > Full Hop > Dair > L cancel> (C & Analog stick) Dsmash from 50% to get a kill on Yoshi's story. If not the least about 67% Damage. The people i've fought has a hard time D.Iing the Fsmash so it could be a could damaging combo if practiced enough.