Paragon LA 2015 ***Update - POLL (how to weigh in?)***

[T0MMY]

@ LiteralGrill asked Paragon TOs about the ruling on Mii fighters since their ruleset had no specific rulings on the Mii fighters.
Their response?

"Default Miis at 1-1-1-1"

No explanation given.
But there is hope! There is still no ruling restricting Mii fighters on the official rules page! This may mean the ruling is still in question and may not be officiated. Here's your chance to chime in and let them know to #FreeMii and that you do not want any restrictions on the Mii characters or ANY character without due process.
Here is their contact page

 

[Auramaniji]

They have to give us a reason why, at least give us a reason...

I'm going to share this in hopes that people take action.

 

[LiteralGrill]

feel free to go complain: https://m.facebook.com/events/14328...384826&ref=m_notif&notif_t=plan_mall_activity

 

[Auramaniji]

VOTE
https://m.facebook.com/events/14328...384826&ref=m_notif&notif_t=plan_mall_activity

 

[wizrad]

Too powerful? Too powerful? Are you crazy? Even with access to all of their moves and sizes, no Mii is even top 5 competitively! Mii Brawler is by far the best, and he's barely top 10. This is just ridiculous.

 

[T0MMY]

VOTE
https://m.facebook.com/events/14328...384826&ref=m_notif&notif_t=plan_mall_activity

Were those the only two options?
I'm disgusted we aren't even given the opportunity to be able to adjust the height/weight of our character. If people are bad at adapting to different character height/weight they have no place in competitive gaming - GIT GUD!

 

[ZarroTsu]

Could someone ask Eric to cite his sources on the way in which Miis, and that is to say every Mii of every configuration except 1111, are in his words, too powerful?

New poll suggestion: How about "Will you participate and use a Mii if it's limited to 1111"?

EDIT: FEED TROLL Y/N?

 

[wizrad]

EDIT: FEED TROLL Y/N?

NO DONT DO IT ITS IMPOSSIBLE

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I'm here in SoCal and sadly they are gonna add a new vote rule. That you must be registered to vote...

It's lame because the majority are gonna say no, because they are too damn lazy to adapt. Middleweight Mii brawler with helicopter kick isn't even close to being as good as tiny Mii brawler. SoCal is so closed minded and hate how they complain about so little things to be honest. I wish they'd open up their minds and simply adapt.

I do gain good results here with Wii fit trainer, but would love to show off my Mii gunner,,, but I can't... I cannot do that because people will B**** about Mii's being "OP" smh. It's so damn childish.

Mii's are easy to fight against and I dunno why they are so scared to play against Mii's at their fullest potential

 

[ZarroTsu]

The close-mindedness tells me that the tournament will either be wholly unmemorable, or a joke.

All it would take is a strong player using a lesser-seen character, and they would mop the floor. If they can't adapt to Miis, they can't adapt to anything unexpected at all. This isn't an assumption, it's the message they're conveying: "We won't allow this, because we don't like learning how to counter strong moves".

The best player in any game (fighting genre or otherwise) would understand every situation and how to counter it. If they refuse to be the best players, and are happy with limiting themselves, then by all means. Stagnate. Devolve. Fail. If it makes you happy.

 

[Auramaniji]

Other states shouldn't follow this rule of voting. I'd be upset for my state to have a majority of no mii fighters voted on every tourament only because i'm the only mii main out there that attended such touraments.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Other states shouldn't follow this rule of voting. I'd be upset for my state to have a majority of no mii fighters voted on every tourament only because i'm the only mii main out there that attended such touraments.

I agree. It's extremely unfair and biased. They need to quit being such whinny cry babies and adapt. What is so broken and scary about default guest weight Mii's with alt moves? There is literally nothing to worry about. New Mii mains will pop us, but it's not like they'll wreck the scene and Mii's become the new sheiks and Luigis lol

Mii brawler with alts is rarely seen in Japan. If Mii's were as broken as they claimed. Mii brawler would be destroying. And dominating Japan, but he isn't at all.

I place very well in SoCal with default Wii fit and I seriously would place even higher if I could use my Mii Gunner 3312 set. Wii Fit and Mii Gunner are the only characters I love using and it's sad that I'm gimped of a character I love all because some people are too damn scared to play against Mii's. Smh

 

[Auramaniji]

I agree. It's extremely unfair and biased. They need to quit being such whinny cry babies and adapt. What is so broken and scary about default guest weight Mii's with alt moves? There is literally nothing to worry about. New Mii mains will pop us, but it's not like they'll wreck the scene and Mii's become the new sheiks and Luigis lol

Mii brawler with alts is rarely seen in Japan. If Mii's were as broken as they claimed. Mii brawler would be destroying. And dominating Japan, but he isn't at all.

I place very well in SoCal with default Wii fit and I seriously would place even higher if I could use my Mii Gunner 3312 set. Wii Fit and Mii Gunner are the only characters I love using and it's sad that I'm gimped of a character I love all because some people are too damn scared to play against Mii's. Smh

There's really nothing to be scared of at this point, or even a shamble of an excuse to be had with Mii as of right now. Most people are just putting off Mii for all the wrong reasons.

 

[T0MMY]

Paragon LA has a poll on their website for ruling on Mii.
There is only two options to select from:

• 1111 "default size"
• Any Custom default size

Nowhere does it state what "default" means and more startling is the complete lack of option for personalized Mii from a 3DS. Restrictions like this need reasoning before weighing in on a warrant for ban/restriction and there has been no reasoning behind it, so I abstained from voting on that poll and gave them a "write-in" saying that no ruling should be made against Mii unless warranted.

 

[Planty]

You guys are really freaking out over this, huh? Default Mii size should be the norm. Once you start messing around with sliders, lots of stuff changes, most notably frame data. If other characters can't put equipment on, Miis shouldn't change size.

For custom moves... well Miis suck without and there's no need to unlock them so I think Miis should have customs. Not size changes though. That's just ridiculous. You could change your size to accomodate each matchup and there would just be so much frame data.

 

[kraven202]

Why are you guys so hellbent on getting miis to be able to change their size?? i mean isnt it enough to at least be able to change your specials in the DEFAULT METAGAME?? which btw that alone already boosts them ALL 3 from being low tiers to high/mid high tier

also there's a few reasons outside of them being "broken" for which changing sizes shouldn't be allowed

First off you need to either go to the mii maker OUTSIDE THE GAME to do so...it is not something that is within the game...which in a tourney would take precious time or of course it could be fixed with uploading it from your 3ds but not everyone has access to a 3ds and it would also take time as well since transferring miis from your 3ds takes even more time than transferring other characters....the game does however bring a set of default size miis that can be quickly accessed and created and that wouldnt take too much time

The other reason being that it gives them an even bigger advantage, not only can they change their specials when no one else can but they would also be able to change their stats as well and while you may think that the smallest is the best for them all that is not necessarily true, like for example both swordfighter and gunner lose a lot of range in some atks, being able to alter your speed and hurtbox to whatever you see fit shouldnt be allowed

Here in puerto rico there's an upcoming tourney and they will allow miis to change their specials but not their size and as a mii brawler/gunner main thats alone is already 4327462659734 times better than playing just 1111 and you people need to stop being such whiny little babies and just deal with it or dont play the game, cause honestly getting diferent specials should be more than enough in a non custom metagame and i think you are asking for a bit too much and maybe thats why you're being pushed aside and ignored because by asking for so much your opinion and demands clearly look biased

 

[kewl]

Yeah, we shouldn't be fighting about size or if we could personalize the miis for the tournaments or anything.

I honestly agree with others when saying that the default/norm mii should be the Guest Mii. They have different Guest Miis that you can even treat them as your different "costumes" just as other characters treat their different colors. In my case I always use the Guest Mii, when I play doubles me and my team mate usually ask for the blue color since I use the blue shirt guest mii and hardly bother any of the clothes or anything, usually just put a one letter name, let my opponent see the specials i chose and MAYBE put on the cat ears for FLAVOR - to me it's just another NORMAL character added on to smash. On my own Wii-U i of course have a personalized mii (at DEFAULT height) but for tournaments, just use the Guest Mii.

Now the moveset is what we really should be fighting - takes no time at all to change up and is even quicker than changing controller settings.

 

[T0MMY]

You guys are really freaking out over this, huh? Default Mii size should be the norm.

There is no such thing as "default" in the software - there are guest Mii and banning our characters to just guest still needs to be warranted just like any ban.
So, what is your reasoning why you want to ban our characters? Let's take a look:

Once you start messing around with sliders, lots of stuff changes, most notably frame data.

Messing with "stuff" and changing frame data is not a reason to ban a character.

If other characters can't put equipment on, Miis shouldn't change size.

Have you seen the difference between apples and oranges before?
Equipment has nothing to do with this.

For custom moves... well Miis suck without and there's no need to unlock them so I think Miis should have customs.

If they are custom moves you're going to have to show where you get that from - as far as I can tell Custom Fighters are not Mii Fighters (yeah, I know you aren't using this as an argument against Mii, but you're still not right as far as I see).

You could change your size to accomodate each matchup and there would just be so much frame data.

So much frame data what?
You don't even have a conclusion to that sentence.

Not size changes though. That's just ridiculous.

The only thing ridiculous I've seen is the argument you presented.

Why are you guys so hellbent on getting miis to be able to change their size??

What are you going on about, we aren't trying to be able to change their size, we already can already change their size! (select the Mii size when making one, pretty simple)
So that's just nonsense. But what we are obviously doing is simply standing by the competitive principle that there are to be no bans unless warranted with sound reasoning.
Want to ban or effectively ban our character with restrictions? That's fine, but you're going to need sound reasoning to be able to argue for it.

i mean isnt it enough to at least be able to change your specials in the DEFAULT METAGAME?? which btw that alone already boosts them ALL 3 from being low tiers to high/mid high tier

What is this "enough" you speak of?
Playing a character to their fullest potential is the foundation of competitive gaming - there is no "enough" where you can arbitrarily set limits and restrict our character without due process.
The Mii fighters are innocent until proven guilty - if you want to be an accuser let's see your reasoning.

also there's a few reasons outside of them being "broken" for which changing sizes shouldn't be allowed

There is no "broken" argument anyone has successfully argued - low/mid tier characters who have abysmal tournament performance and have gone through balance patches has no room for "overpowered" let alone "broken" arguments, get that day 1 fear-mongering out of here.

First off you need to either go to the mii maker OUTSIDE THE GAME to do so...

Wrong.

• Mii can be made from guest Mii inside the game.
• They can also be uploaded from a 3DS.

but not everyone has access to a 3ds and it would also take time as well since transferring miis from your 3ds takes even more time than transferring other characters

Wrong.
Transferring Mii does not take more time than transferring other characters - if you believe so please demonstrate now.
Access to a 3DS is not a reason to keep others from using it - those without a 3DS can:

• Create Mii fighters in-game (as stated above)
• Borrow a 3DS to do so.

The other reason being that it gives them an even bigger advantage, not only can they change their specials when no one else can but they would also be able to change their stats as well

Link has a Master Sword
Meta Knight has 5 jumps
Diddy can spawn banana items
Zelda uses magic
Mario has a mustache
Mii fighters can be created

It's the character's shtick, if you want to take my character's personality away I'll take yours away first and see how it feels.
If you think characters all need to be equaled with out-of-game arbitration then you're in the wrong place.

Here in puerto rico there's an upcoming tourney and they will allow miis to change their specials but not their size

Puerto Rico? more like Puerto Scrubo
Tell the TOs there to stop employing out-of-game arbitration and limiting their attendees and embarrassing the Smash Community. Thx.

maybe thats why you're being pushed aside and ignored because by asking for so much your opinion and demands clearly look biased

Except bans, limits, restrictions happened day 1 before anyone even said anything.
No, don't play the blame-the-victim game with us and say it's our fault people have banned and restricted the character we play. Am I supposed to believe someone when they say their girlfriend had that black eye coming to her?

I honestly agree with others when saying that the default/norm mii should be the Guest Mii.

Yeah, and I think no other character should be able to use any of their abilities either. Kirby shouldn't be able to copy abilities and Shulk shouldn't be able to use Monado Arts.
We want fair, right? Fair is fair.

Now the moveset is what we really should be fighting - takes no time at all to change up and is even quicker than changing controller settings.

I am going to demand my character able to be used to its fullest and then have a real discussion about the competitive game after we look at it honestly instead of this knee-jerk reaction to ban everything and be a bunch of scrubs.
If the character honestly deserves to be banned/restricted then I want it to be done so honestly.
Innocent before proven guilty.

#FreeMii

 

[ZarroTsu]

Paragon LA has a poll on their website for ruling on Mii.

Interestingly, it tells me I already voted. I never did.

Golly.


On sizes: It's not so much that default isn't viable, but that it's kinda clunky and unwieldy. Granted I say this after using 25/0 a lot. Different strokes.

Also I don't even know if all the guest Miis are the same size. I've asked around and have not gotten a straight answer. Anyone know?

Unrelated, what the heck ever happened to 3DS tournaments?

 

[AEMehr]

First off you need to either go to the mii maker OUTSIDE THE GAME to do so...it is not something that is within the game

Fun fact, Guest Miis aren't in the game.

They're on the system, granted they're on every system, but they're not in the game by any means. The creation of any Mii Fighter requires Smash Brothers to pick a Mii located outside of the game to create the fighter.
You must also realize that transferring from Smash 3DS takes about the same amount of time as it takes to even make a Mii Fighter. So I mean, there's that too.


The only major issue with Guest Miis for me (aside from the fact that I like the mobility smaller ones can bring) is that they aren't 50/50 so you can only practice them, if you play as them. And I'm not really a fan of any of the Guest Miis so yeah. If only we knew exactly what their height and weight were.

 

[Planty]

@ T0MMY
You want to know why Miis shouldn't change size? It's completely unfair. That's why. You could use different sizes to accomodate each matchup, something nobody else is able to do. You're able to change sizes to become faster or stronger, so why can't I use equipment to make my characters faster or stronger? It's the same concept.

You're lucky enough if you even get custom moves allowed in A NON-CUSTOM META, and you're crying that you can't change sizes?

 

[Rebel13]

@ P Planty I don't even play Miis much and I can say with certainty that your argument is nonsense. Changing height and weight on a Mii realistically only changes 2 things: range and frame data. NOT speed and power.

The reason everyone wants small Miis is because the lack of range is more than compensated by combo-ability. Gunner mains don't even use many physical moves that would benefit from them being larger.

On top of all of this most Mii players will practice on a specific size that's good for the character, and not be used to differences if they change it. I don't even think there would be any advantage to it. Sizes don't change stats anywhere CLOSE to how equipment do. Frankly I think you have never played a Mii if you think the difference would warrant a change mid match. Mii size is preference, it will not change a matchup AT ALL 90% of the time (unless you switch to a fat Mii, which would just be trolling because a fat Mii is almost strictly a worse character).
Finally, the game does not treat Mii customizibility as custom moves. You can use Miis with customs turned off.

 

[Planty]

@ R Rebel13
I know you can you custom mii moves with custom moves turned off, but their still customs...

And unless I'm crazy, does size not change mobility? The real thing though is frame data. When you start messing around with sliders, you have nearly infinite possibilities in the frame data department. Not only is it hard to track for Mii mains, it's also impossible to counterplay by going into a match not knowing your opponents exact frame data.

 

[T0MMY]

@ T0MMY
You want to know why Miis shouldn't change size? It's completely unfair.

Invoking the fairness principle is for player fairness, not character balance.

Our job as competitors is to compete - as per competitive philosophy it is up to us to push each character to its potential limit and not create restrictions on the game that hold us back unless warranted.
Any competitor may use the Mii and as with any character it is expected that the competitors exploit the character as best they can.

Want to see how asinine the thought process is in invoking the Fairness Principle pertaining to players rather than characters? Take a look at this quote and analyze it reasonably:

Spoiler

You could use different sizes to accomodate each matchup, something nobody else is able to do.

I could?
Nobody else is able to?
Only I and nobody else?
Did not know I had some kind of magic ability where I can use a character right there on the character select screen!
I em sum kind of god amung manz! <= please read in the most ridiculous internet accent.
Nobody else can do this!

Sorry, truth is anyone can create a Mii and use it and I am no different.
And the next part:

You're able to change sizes to become faster or stronger, so why can't I use equipment to make my characters faster or stronger? It's the same concept.

Because Custom Fighter is set to "OFF"
Good luck trying to figure out how to get that one to work and gain an advantage on me (hint: if you do somehow figure it out then I'll just use the same technique and get my own equipment to use until the technique is patched out, ruled against, or accepted).

I know you can you custom mii moves with custom moves turned off, but their still customs...

What evidence do you have they are customs? Where does the game tell you this?
Mii Fighters are created with a choice of personalized special attacks, which as far as I can tell are not refered to as custom moves in the game. So the idea of them being Customs is nonsensical since the Custom Fighter toggle does not affect them.
Not only do I not see evidence of Mii using customs but the game itself seems to suggest the contrary, which is a double-strike for the notion they are using custom moves or are custom fighters.

Not only is it hard to track for Mii mains, it's also impossible to counterplay by going into a match not knowing your opponents exact frame data.

If you are asserting that changing height/weight changes frame data then you're going to have to come up with some compelling evidence before anyone believes it
. Even if you show that to be the case the only response you should get from a competitive player is: Git gud.
Those who can't adapt should stay out of the Competitive Arena.

You're lucky enough if you even get custom moves allowed in A NON-CUSTOM META, and you're crying that you can't change sizes?

Luck has no room in rulecrafting, only reason.
There's no room for crying in competition.
And speaking of which, the only person I see crying is you: Any outcries of bans/restrictions without reason is simply just crying and in a competitive arena the common response you will hear to your crying is "git gud".

Also I don't even know if all the guest Miis are the same size. I've asked around and have not gotten a straight answer.

There's a reason for that.
People making assertions without providing any evidence. Right now that's the standard of rulecrafting for scrubs and one that I am going to destroy with a stronger standard: one built on logic and reasoning.

 

[AEMehr]

@ R Rebel13
I know you can you custom mii moves with custom moves turned off, but their still customs...

Since Mii Fighters are defined as created fighters, they are balanced with each special move being available in mind. Outside of the initial Wii U Patch, no other characters in the game have regularly received balance changes for their "Custom" moves, unless it was an overall change to that special (Pikachu's Thunder Jolt / Luigi's Fireball).

And unless I'm crazy, does size not change mobility? The real thing though is frame data. When you start messing around with sliders, you have nearly infinite possibilities in the frame data department. Not only is it hard to track for Mii mains, it's also impossible to counterplay by going into a match not knowing your opponents exact frame data.

Each Mii Fighter plays the same regardless of size. The Match-Up does not really change when it comes to Height and Weight, the usability of the character does. This is why people always ask for the smaller Miis, because they are undoubtedly better in practically every situation. If people require them to be a specific smaller size, ala EVO's 0/0 or 25/0, I'm sure people would be fine that. The issue is not standardizing the size, because it's only fair to have a standard size for Mii Fighters so players can always be somewhat familiar with how they move. But the issue is that the standardized size limits the character's overall potential.

Special moves by far alter the match-up thing way more than Height and Weight does. A Brawler with Helicopter Kick is by far way more threatening off-stage than one with Soaring Axe Kick. A Gunner with Gunner Missile can cover the frontal area much better than one with Flame Pillar or Stealth Burst. A Swordfighter with Hero's Spin has a kill option that Stone Scabbard and Skyward Slash Dash do not offer. But these are factors that are built into the character from the beginning, since they are designed with other specials moves in mind. I mean the game even gives you tips on them and the alternate trophies for the Mii Fighters mention them too.

 

[Marrow]

Since Mii Fighters are defined as created fighters, they are balanced with each special move being available in mind. Outside of the initial Wii U Patch, no other characters in the game have regularly received balance changes for their "Custom" moves, unless it was an overall change to that special (Pikachu's Thunder Jolt / Luigi's Fireball).

I believe Charizard's Dragon Rush custom had a damage nerf when no other version had any changes, but aside from that I totally agree with you. Each Mii type was specifically designed to be tweaked to player preference, including size and specials. EVO sizes would be enough for me, if only for now.

 

[wizrad]

Thank god for you T0MMY, else I would probably be going through all of these threads and combatting resistance myself, with my flimsy arguments and short attention span. Hell, I'd probably end up inadvertently getting Miis banned.

Edit for spelling.

 

[T0MMY]

Thank god for you T0MMY, else I would probably be going through all of these threads and combatting resistance myself, with my flimsy arguments and short attention span. Hell, I'd probably end up inadvertently getting Miis banned.

I'm trying my best to do what is best for the competitive community. Keep in mind I was originally pro-ban for Mii fighters before the game came out - and even so I was interested in playing Mii Brawler and mii Swordfighterat the time. When I examined the game with a competitive mindset I was completely against any Mii bans and feel there is no reason to restrict them to any arbitrary settings.

I honestly think there should only be two choices for a TO: Full Mii usage or compete ban (and I really don't see a ban being warranted) - this reflects competitive ruleset as well as an online usage we find in For Glory and Tournament Mode. Obviously the latter option (full ban) may be valid for events, but it is a weaker option for the Community - excluding honest players is generally not a good thing.