PAL/NTSC weight-dependent throws frame advantage differences

[smack]

(v 1.2 of the post, first version didn't explicit when a throw was merely shifted, a couple of numbers were incorrect, and also didn't include a couple other details, the second version had rounding issues, the details of which are linked further down in the post).



Hello all.

Quite a few throws are weight-dependent, and some of the more notable ones are.

I'd been looking at differences between PAL and NTSC for Yoshi, and realised that no one seemed to have fully looked into the differences for weight-dependent throws between the two versions.

So here they are for all six changed characters. They affect a few matchups fairly significantly.

I recommend reading Magus' post on throws if you aren't familiar with what I'm talking about.
https://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/

Weight multiplier changes (NTSC → PAL) :

Bowser 1.17 → 1.18
Fox .75 → .73
Kirby .70 → .74
Mario 1.00 → .98
Marth .87 → .86
Yoshi 1.08 → 1.11

Everthing here is from the POV of the thrower (release point, actionability).

'NO' means the throw is unchanged between PAL and NTSC.

'(1,2)' means the release point occurs 1 frame earlier/later depending on char, and that the thrower is actionable 2 frames earlier/later, once again depending on the character.

In Fox, Mario and Marth's cases, it is generally a NERF for these chars. The character throwing them gets extra leniency to land a followup. In Bowser, Kirby and Yoshi's cases, it is a BUFF for these characters. Landing followups on them is harder in PAL. Of course, for some throws the difference is insignificant. Being actionable one frame earlier when you have zero followups is not a big difference. So only a portion of these changes have true impact on some followups.

Another important thing to bear in mind is that even throws where only the total amount of time changes can still affect followups. The animations will be interpolated differently, meaning release points may be lower or higher than in NTSC, which is why I specify differences even when it's merely a shift and not a strict change in frame advantage.

A different release point can have important consequences :
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comme...0_in_ntsc_but_not_in/?st=j6xwg3ad&sh=5f1c294d

The throws that have projectiles with hitlag (Falco U-throw/D-throw, Mewtwo F-throw) may also behave slightly differently. I have not detailed the frame differences for the projectiles.

As some of you may know, Fox can tech out of Falco's D-throw in PAL, but not in NTSC. The reason for that is that the laser hits Fox before his release point in PAL as it is created one frame earlier thanks to rounding differences, when in NTSC it connects after release.

Falco's U-throw behaviour is a little special (by which I mean tauKhan hasn't worked out an explanation for it yet), so no details on that one yet.

Other things to bear in mind are the fact that changes can reduce or increase the reaction time window. So depending on the throw, it might be harder/easier for the thrown char to input his DI. It might occasionally mean the thrower also has a frame less/more to react to the thrown char's DI, too.

Some of these throws are especially noteworthy, there's even a couple chaingrabs that are affected here.
Here's a few :

• Marth/Roy U-throw D-throw and B-throw on Marth and Fox
• Fox U-throw and B-throw in the ditto
• Jiggs U-throw on Fox
• Fox U-throw on Yoshi
• ICs D-throw on Yoshi

Kirby benefits a fair amount overall as well.

I'm sure some of these were known, but I don't think the changes they cause have been explored properly, for the most part.

Note that this is not dependent on port priority, port priority behaviour is not directly related to the calculations made here.

Apologies for the meh formatting, I'm not very familiar with smashboards and BBCode.

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Bowser ||||||

D-throw | REWORKED|REWORKED|REWORKED|REWORKED|REWORKED|REWORKED
F-throw | (1,2)|(1,0)|(0,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)|(1,2)
B-throw | (0,1)|(0,1)|NO|NO|(0,1)|(1,1)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Falcon / Ganon ||||||

D-throw | (0,1)|(0,1)|NO|NO|(1,1)|(1,1)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Doctor Mario / Mario / Luigi |

U-throw | (0,1) | (0,1)|NO|NO|(0,1)|(1,1)
D-throw | (0,1) | (0,1)|NO|NO|(0,1)|(1,1)
F-throw | (1,0)|(0,1)|NO|NO|(1,1)|(0,1)
B-throw | (1,2)|(0,1)|(1,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)|(2,3)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
DK (non-cargo) ||||||

D-throw | (1,2)|(1,0)|(0,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)|(1,2)
U-throw | (0,1)|NO|(0,1)|NO|(0,1)|(0,2)
B-throw | (0,1)|(0,1)|NO|NO|(0,1)|(1,1)
F-throw | ?|NO|NO|NO|(1)|?

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Falco ||||||

D-throw | NO|NO|(1,0)|NO|(1,1)|(1,2)
U-throw | (0,1)|(0,1)|NO|NO|(0,1)|(1,1)
F-throw | NO|NO | NO|NO|(1,1)|(1,1)
B-throw | (0,1)|(0,1)|NO|NO|(0,1)|(0,1)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Fox ||||||

U-throw | (0,1)|(0,1)|NO|NO|(0,1)|(0,1)
B-throw | (0,1)|(0,1)|NO|NO|(0,1)|(0,1)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
G&W ||||||

All throws | (1,1)|(0,1)|NO | (1,1)|(2,2)|(2,2)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
ICs ||||||

D-throw | (0,1)|NO|(1,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)|(1,1)
B-throw | (0,1)|(1,1)|NO|NO|(0,1)|(1,1)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Jigglypuff ||||||

U-throw | (0,1)|NO|NO|NO|(0,1)|(0,2)
B-throw | (0,1)|NO | (0,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)|(1,1)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Link / Young Link ||||||

D-throw | (1,1)|(0,1)|(1,1)|NO|(0,2)|(1,2)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Marth / Roy ||||||

D-throw | (0,1)|NO|(0,1)|NO|(0,1)|(1,1)
U-throw | (1,1)|(0,1)|(0,1)|NO|(1,1)|(0,2)
F-throw | NO|NO|NO|NO|(0,1)|(1,1)
B-throw | (0,1)|(0,1)|(0,1)|NO|(0,1)|(1,2)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Mewtwo ||||||

U-throw | (1,1)|(0,1)|NO|(0,1)|(1,2)|(2,2)
F-throw | (0,2)|(0,1)|(0,1)|(0,1)|(0,3)|(1,3)
B-throw | (0,1)|(1,0)|(1,1)|(1,1)|(1,2)|(1,1)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Ness ||||||

U-throw | (0,2)|(0,1)|(1,0)|(0,1)|(1,2)|(1,2)
F-throw | (1,1)|NO|(0,1)|(0,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)
B-throw | (1,1)|NO|(0,1)|(0,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Pikachu / Pichu ||||||

B-throw | (1,1)|NO|(1,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)|(2,1)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Samus ||||||

D-throw | (0,1)|NO|NO|NO|(1,1)|(1,2)
U-throw | (1,1)|NO|NO|NO|(1,1)|(1,2)
F-throw | (1,1)|NO|(1,0)|NO|(0,1)|(1,2)
B-throw | (0,1)|NO|NO|NO|(1,1)|(1,2)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Yoshi ||||||

D-throw | (0,1)|NO|(0,1)|NO|(0,1)|(1,2)
U-throw | (1,1)|NO|(0,1)|NO|(1,1)|(0,2)
F-throw | (1,1)|(0,1)|NO|NO|(1,1)|(1,1)
B-throw | (1,1)|NO|(0,1)|NO|(1,1)|(1,2)

Thrower \ Throwee | Fox | Bowser | Marth | Mario | Yoshi | Kirby
Zelda ||||||

U-throw | (0,1)|(1,0)|(1,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)|(1,1)
F-throw | (0,1)|NO|(0,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)|(1,1)
B-throw | (0,1)|(1,0)|(0,1)|(0,1)|(1,2)|(1,1)

Thanks to tauKhan for explaining a couple of details to me (and for a couple of extra checks, and for providing the explanation related to Falco's D-throw), and to Hunybear for indirectly making me realise a couple of calculations weren't correct. A mistake pointed out by LiquED and Jah Ridin' also made us investigate some interesting floating-point rounding issues, which are detailed here.

(The gist of it is that the interpolation factor is a floating-point, and that for some throws the repeated additions don't add up to the 'expected' total, ie Luigi uthrow on Fox in NTSC lasts 1 frame longer than intuition suggests, since the floating-point value will be 39.999996, instead of the expected value of 40, making the throw last 1 frame longer for the thrower than my previous calculations suggested).