Overall thoughts on competitive smash 4

[The Original Zeph]

Hey guys I need some opinions about something that's been on my mind.

I've been playing smash 4 Wii u like crazy its light years better than the 3ds version. I also want to play it competitively and be the best I can but there's been something bringing me down, people and Nintendo seem to not want this game to go in a competitive direction. Whether its Nintendo just straight up removing AT's/tech people find to people just saying its too slow and boring. It really doesn't make much sense, i was really looking forward to things like the DACUS and all the new character tech we could find to make this game have that much more depth but it seems like every time something new is discovered its likely it will be patched out. Its really disappointing is anyone else discerned about playing this game?

 

[xExcel]

Just play the game the way the developers intended instead of whining about how glitches and techs are being patched. Is it really so hard to be good at the game without exploiting something to make your character better?

 

[The Original Zeph]

Just play the game the way the developers intended instead of whining about how glitches and techs are being patched. Is it really so hard to be good at the game without exploiting something to make your character better?

I'm not really whining I just think At's add more diversity to the game. Also I'd say i'm pretty good at the game considering I've been winning just fine w/o anything to exploit.

 

[xExcel]

I'm not really whining I just think At's add more diversity to the game. Also I'd say i'm pretty good at the game considering I've been winning just fine w/o anything to exploit.

Then there shouldn't be much of a problem if they wanna patch things out. Now at least I don't see Greninja as much since they took out that shadow sneak cancel. Even if you can play well without it, there are people who rely on those kind of things to be halfway decent and now they're being exposed and I think its hilarious.

 

[The Original Zeph]

Then there shouldn't be much of a problem if they wanna patch things out. Now at least I don't see Greninja as much since they took out that shadow sneak cancel. Even if you can play well without it, there are people who rely on those kind of things to be halfway decent and now they're being exposed and I think its hilarious.

Did you find shadow cancel annoying? I thought it was a good gimmick but wasn't broken or op by any means and hell if a bad player was using it he'd probably spam it making it really predictable.

 

[xExcel]

Did you find shadow cancel annoying? I thought it was a good gimmick but wasn't broken or op by any means and hell if a bad player was using it he'd probably spam it making it really predictable.

Yes it was annoying. Not hard to beat or anything, just annoying. And even the good players spammed it. I used to see Greninja 6/10 games and now I hardly see it once out of 10 if ever.

 

[AngeloHollow]

Yes it was annoying. Not hard to beat or anything, just annoying. And even the good players spammed it. I used to see Greninja 6/10 games and now I hardly see it once out of 10 if ever.

Even after discovering that "technique", I never actually used it when I played with Greninja. I found it unsafe and unnecessary. The patch hasn't affected my skill with Greninja at all because I was good with him without needing to resort to such a thing to be good with him.

As for "advanced techniques", it should be something that the developers intended on including. The reason Shadow Canceling got patched is because the devs saw that people were not using Shadow Sneak as a clever way of killing people, but instead of that players used it as a technique to make using aerials safer. Shadow Sneak is an attack that kills that should be used sparingly, and if you use it, make sure it hits. Greninja is a ninja and should be used as such. Quick decisive attacks that will land provided the circumstances are optimal, and for that, you need to force your opponent into a bad situation where being hit is the only answer.

 

[Raijinken]

Tech barriers obstruct new competitors from competing. Removing them allows players with lesser reflexes but comparable mastery of all other aspects of the game to compete, which is good.

The game is plenty competitive, and gradual balance patching will help it become even more so (by moving characters in-line, balance-wise).

 

[The Original Zeph]

Tech barriers obstruct new competitors from competing. Removing them allows players with lesser reflexes but comparable mastery of all other aspects of the game to compete, which is good.

The game is plenty competitive, and gradual balance patching will help it become even more so (by moving characters in-line, balance-wise).

You have given me the best answer yet, I just hope that not including AT's won't make the game so linear to the point where there will just be the best character in the game to play competitively every patch. (Ex. Diddy Kong and Rosalina.)

 

[AngeloHollow]

Tech barriers obstruct new competitors from competing. Removing them allows players with lesser reflexes but comparable mastery of all other aspects of the game to compete, which is good.

The game is plenty competitive, and gradual balance patching will help it become even more so (by moving characters in-line, balance-wise).

This is why I do not like playing Melee. How good you actually are at the game is absolutely meaningless. Your "skill" is more or less dictated by how well you know the "advanced techniques." The skill ceiling is extremely high, and you if can't use any of the "advanced techniques" then you might as well not even play. I don't like it when games take that kind of turn.

 

[Raijinken]

You have given me the best answer yet, I just hope that not including AT's won't make the game so linear to the point where there will just be the best character in the game to play competitively every patch. (Ex. Diddy Kong and Rosalina.)

Ideally, if the patches work well, a gradual balance will be reached where it could become literally player's choice of character (bar matchup-sensitivity), with characters each having a fairly even number of good and bad matchups. It then turns into a game of out-playing on your character, rather than a game of outplaying with the "best" character (which, even with all the ATs, is still how I and many people view Melee). It's a different, but no less valid, test of skill, and one that I feel is what Sakurai really wants with Smash as a crossover fighter.

 

[The Original Zeph]

This is why I do not like playing Melee. How good you actually are at the game is absolutely meaningless. Your "skill" is more or less dictated by how well you know the "advanced techniques." The skill ceiling is extremely high, and you if can't use any of the "advanced techniques" then you might as well not even play. I don't like it when games take that kind of turn.

Yeah I can totally see what you mean after coming from melee I do agree that having techs like melee can limit the player base and it's a shame to because it creates a minority of players but at the same time techs also add a lot more to the game and makes practicing that much more worth it. I actually started on brawl and loved the techs in there as well if only there was a way to make techs accessible to New and hardcore players alike.

 

[AngeloHollow]

Yeah I can totally see what you mean after coming from melee I do agree that having techs like melee can limit the player base and it's a shame to because it creates a minority of players but at the same time techs also add a lot more to the game and makes practicing that much more worth it. I actually started on brawl and loved the techs in there as well if only there was a way to make techs accessible to New and hardcore players alike.

What I think the devs should do is program intentionally advanced techniques, that way when somebody discovers a new tech, it won't get patched out because it's the exact result intended. Maybe add in some game hints about the techs and/or a mode where the game can help you teach them to you so you can practice.

The reason the other techs get patched out is because the devs see these things somehow someway and look at it. They watch some more and notice it's consistent. They then go "Hmm... while this is intuitive, it's causing a problem, and it seems like a lot of players know about this. They're not using this move the way we programmed it to act, so we should get rid of this."

 

[The Original Zeph]

What I think the devs should do is program intentionally advanced techniques, that way when somebody discovers a new tech, it won't get patched out because it's the exact result intended. Maybe add in some game hints about the techs and/or a mode where the game can help you teach them to you so you can practice.

The reason the other techs get patched out is because the devs see these things somehow someway and look at it. They watch some more and notice it's consistent. They then go "Hmm... while this is intuitive, it's causing a problem, and it seems like a lot of players know about this. They're not using this move the way we programmed it to act, so we should get rid of this."

I'm glad the ball got rolling as far as this discussion this is exactly the kind of opinions/thing I wanted to hear from other players now back to the topic.

I think they could embrace the techs I'll use DACUS as an example. What if they brought it back but made the timing less strict and even add how to tips/tutorials in game to inform players about it and even teach them how to use it so that way its not hidden and matches aren't in favor of the player knowing the tech I feel that way both sides can be catered to.

 

[AngeloHollow]

I'm glad the ball got rolling as far as this discussion this is exactly the kind of opinions/thing I wanted to hear from other players now back to the topic.

I think they could embrace the techs I'll use DACUS as an example. What if they brought it back but made the timing less strict and even add how to tips/tutorials in game to inform players about it and even teach them how to use it so that way its not hidden and matches aren't in favor of the player knowing the tech I feel that way both sides can be catered to.

I don't think DACUS was bad at all. It was in Brawl, and it was in Smash 4... for a little bit, but it wasn't problematic like some other things that were in the game. It would be a nice addition, and it having tips/tutorials in would give players more of an incentive to practice with their characters. It would get newer players eager to learn the competitive game, and I am hoping that other competitive players would like the inclusion of such an addition and not say "Now there's barely a difference between casual and competitive!". Players should be able to learn advanced techniques, as long as said technique has a reasonable learning curve and also doesn't create a separation between player bases.

 

[Quillion]

We have this, damn it!

I have yet to see anyone argue against this other than "it's not wavedashing, so it sucks".

 

[videojames]

Smash 4 is still a recent game who knows what little tricks havent been found out yet. I used to be on the "gg airdodge spam ruins this game" train and honestly after playing it more and trying to adapt to the mechanic instead of complaining it really doesnt even phase me anymore

 

[Kikaioh]

Just play the game the way the developers intended instead of whining about how glitches and techs are being patched. Is it really so hard to be good at the game without exploiting something to make your character better?

It's hard to say what the devs did and didn't intend. Back in melee they knew about the existence of wavedashing during development and still left it in the game. Considering how easy the shadowsneak cancel was to execute, I'm fairly certain the devs knew about its existence before the game released, and only decided to remove it in the patch to balance the characters/encourage different playstyles based on whatever statistics they gathered from the online play modes. Actually, it's likely they had planned ahead of time a list of certain character abilities/techniques they could remove or tweak in subsequent patches based on whatever metrics they got from the online modes.

Also, your perception of the Shadow Sneak cancel's strength is a bit overblown. Shadow Sneak is generally easy to read, and the cancel at most just gave an added mix-up option, not some sort of excessive tactical advantage the absence of which would drive players to quit Greninja. If anyone is playing Greninja less because of the patch, it's far more likely because of his other nerfs (shuriken and usmash lag, hard input for dash usmash, etc.) which generally makes his character much slower overall, and has much less to do with exploits than it does his clunkier playstyle.

 

[The Original Zeph]

I've been playing more today and you wanna know what mechanic ruins competitive play? The rage mechanic, its probably the dumbest thing in this game it makes it so even if you are doing the right thing by hitting your opponent and not getting hit you will still die because their moves kill at like 80-90% while yours don't until like 100-130% because you aren't a high %. It kind of takes all logic of fighting games and throws it out the window to reward players who are LOSING. But seriously I know it wont happen because Nintendo doesn't care about us but if this mechanic was removed there would be much less BS I shouldn't lose games just because my opponent is a higher %.