Online:Separation by Skill

[nessokman]

I thought about the idea of Advanced techniques and thought how it would screw casuals over in online play. What about a system similar to how schools do? Sorting people with similar grades in classes. Every round you get a score, when you go on again, it will match you with people of similar skill range. This keeps casuals from ever fighting competitive players.





Discuss,

 

[[Corn]]

Online cant even be a measurement for skill gaps due to any input delay.

And no, we dont need a ranking system in a SSB game.

 

[smashbrolink]

I would prefer they keep developing Smash 4 in the direction they seem to be; making it competitive without a ton of AT's from past games, so that anyone can get up to the point of playing alongside those of higher skill levels with time, rather than after learning a bunch of extra complicated button inputs until they're second-nature.[assuming their dexterity allows them to learn them all at all]
That way there won't be any need to separate the players by ranks.

 

[INs4niTY-]

I agree there should be some form of distinction between hardcore players and newbies, mixing it up will put people off on both ends. No hard core gamer wants to vs a newbie and no newbie wants to be put against a hardcore gamer. Win/win situation.

 

[SmashBro99]

Smash Bros is a party game, so no

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Renji64]

That would be hard for them to do i would like a ranking system and some AT's but i'll be lucky just to see the fludd gone from mario's moveset.

 

[INs4niTY-]

AT's or no AT's a better player will always beat a newbie lol. It was made quite clear in Brawl which avoided AT's. I know there was a few but in general a better player would always win.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

A ranking system is absolutely vital for a good online experience on both spectrums. Pretty much every competitive online game has one these days, why should Smash be an exception?

 

[Vkrm]

I don't always want to play to win. Sometimes I'm in the mood to kick back and **** around with items on hyrule without caring about the win. So of course they should have both ranked and player matches.

 

[Senario]

I thought about the idea of Advanced techniques and thought how it would screw casuals over in online play. What about a system similar to how schools do? Sorting people with similar grades in classes. Every round you get a score, when you go on again, it will match you with people of similar skill range. This keeps casuals from ever fighting competitive players.





Discuss,

Sakurai isn't currently thinking of putting a ranking system in at all for smash 4. As for AT screwing over casuals...well not really, a four player fight with items could still result in the loss of the most experienced player and that is what casuals usually play. Plus smash balls which are usually instant deaths, those are up for grabs by anybody in the fight. Not to mention that in a 4 player fight even without items, players who know AT's are still distracted somewhat by all the stuff going on at once. It isn't like having access or knowledge of AT makes you instantly win vs most other players.

If you mean Psuedo-competitors who want to play 1v1 and be competitive but label themselves casual...they should try putting effort into AT's to get better because if you expect to be better than somebody (who has spent hours practicing against real people and learning the game) without practice that is just not right.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Online cant even be a measurement for skill gaps due to any input delay. And no, we dont need a ranking system in a SSB game.

Online play can be a measurement for skill gaps but it can definitely hinder distinguishing who is the best among their peers. Your sentiment about the necessity of a ranking system in Super Smash Bros. is purely arbitrary.

This thread is basically a sliver of another thread by nLiM8d, and [Corn] is once again the vanguard against the entire notion of playing with like-skilled players through the internet, and it's just because he thinks offline play provides a more ideal environment. I think it's strange that people are so against something they are not remotely obligated to participate in, much like the other group of people who think no items in tournaments is a stupid way to play.

You know what? The producers could actually spend the time developing something else besides online play. But I think the trade-off is probably worth it, because it will introduce many players to deeper levels of play (even if they aren't the deepest) and give greater access to multiplayer to people who live in an extremely limited vacuum of Smash.

 

[[Corn]]

Online play can be a measurement for skill gaps but it definitely hinder distinguishing who is the best among their peers. Your sentiment about the necessity of a ranking system in Super Smash Bros. is purely arbitrary.

This thread is basically a sliver of another thread by nLiM8d, and [Corn] is once again the vanguard against the entire notion of playing with like-skilled players through the internet, and it's just because he thinks offline play provides a more ideal environment. I think it's strange that people are so against something they are not remotely obligated to participate in, much like the other group of people who think no items in tournaments is a stupid way to play.

You know what? The producers could actually spend the time developing something else besides online play. But I think the trade-off is probably worth it, because it will introduce many players to deeper levels of play (even if they aren't the deepest) and give access to multiplayer to people who live in an extremely limited vacuum of Smash.

Offline play is always the ideal environment if you are judging for skill. This is a fact.
Another fact is that Miyamoto considers Smash a Psuedo Party Game, and that isnt something that usually deserves an advanced online ranking system.
I am not against Online play, But based on Nintendo's current/past Internet and such, they wont specifically try to go for it.

I am not saying some people dont enjoy something like that, but if it takes away anything from the offline gameplay experience, I will dislike it greatly.

I for one refuse to play basically any fighting game online that uses input delay, as its like playing a completely different game and I learn bad habits and stupid things. But thats just me.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Offline play is always the ideal environment if you are judging for skill. This is a fact.

No one is disputing this.

Another fact is that Miyamoto considers Smash a Psuedo Party Game, and that isnt something that usually deserves an advanced online ranking system.

Smash Bros. has evolved beyond whatever the producers could possibly consider the game to be, and the fact remains there is a large pool of players that want to be separated from the chaotic mess of special-spamming laymans. No one even suggested that the ranking system has to be advanced. Do you even understand how most ranking systems like ELO work? They are not as complex as you believe and they are usually based strictly on match outcomes than how well the match was played.

I am not saying some people dont enjoy something like that, but if it takes away anything from the offline gameplay experience, I will dislike it greatly.

Online play taking away from the offline gameplay experience? You're imagining threats.

I for one refuse to play basically any fighting game online that uses input delay, as its like playing a completely different game and I learn bad habits and stupid things.

That's great. You're not obligated to play online.

 

[Vkrm]

Online cant even be a measurement for skill gaps due to any input delay.

Dude you play brawl. A game that has delay built in.

 

[[Corn]]

Dude you play brawl. A game that has delay built in.

Variable Delay =/= Controllable Delay

Please understand a comparison

 

[nessokman]

Not a rank system by which someone is in 1st etc. I mean getting points for your actions online, and the game matching you with people of your skill level so someone doesn't end up with noobs or a noob wouldn't end up with a pro

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I would prefer they keep developing Smash 4 in the direction they seem to be; making it competitive without a ton of AT's from past games, so that anyone can get up to the point of playing alongside those of higher skill levels with time, rather than after learning a bunch of extra complicated button inputs until they're second-nature.[assuming their dexterity allows them to learn them all at all]
That way there won't be any need to separate the players by ranks.

So make it Brawl?

 

[Rodriguez5]

I had the idea of something like a hidden skill ranking system. So people are placed in proper matches. Seems logical and isn't really complex.

 

[smashbrolink]

So make it Brawl?

Yeah, no.
I'm not going to start a discussion on that with you until you can promise to refrain from misrepresenting the meanings of my posts for the sake of your own ends.
You know full well that that's not what I was getting at.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

YOU FOOL! You've opened up a can of worms that we had relegated to other threads! The wars will begin anew!!!

*goes to hide in his flame-proof bunker*

 

[smashbrolink]

YOU FOOL! You've opened up a can of worms that we had relegated to other threads! The wars will begin anew!!!

*goes to hide in his flame-proof bunker*

I don't intend on responding again if it continues in that direction of him claiming I'm asking for Brawl, though, so don't fret.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I don't intend on responding again if it continues in that direction of him claiming I'm asking for Brawl, though, so don't fret.

Oh, no, I didn't mean you, I meant the OP opened up the can o' worms.

 

[Vkrm]

Variable Delay =/= Controllable Delay

Please understand a comparison

Is 0-2 considered variable delay? It doesn't matter, was only teasing.

 

[Vkrm]

Smash bros gives you absolute control. You can adjust your jump ark and fall speed, running speed, and even the trajectory your sent on when hit by attacks. There are so many things that are left up to the player that I think good execution is always gonna matter.

 

[Senario]

Yeah, no.
I'm not going to start a discussion on that with you until you get that idea out of your head and stop trying to shove your words in my mouth.

Although that is what you did say...

"without a ton of AT's from past games, so that anyone can get up to the point of playing alongside those of higher skill levels with time, rather than after learning a bunch of extra complicated button inputs until they're second-nature."

You see...the place where I have a problem with what you are trying to assert is the bolded and underlined part. First of all the main AT from the first two games wasn't complicated at all. Do an Air move? -> When you land on the ground press L to cancel out some of the air lag. Really wasn't that complicated considering L is used for shielding, used for dodging and so on.

The other one, wavedashing is a combination of something that is pretty simple. 1) short hopping, just press the jump button lightly instead of using up on the control stick to jump. 2) before you get off the ground press L to air dodge and move the control stick towards the ground in the direction you want to move. And this is not that useful on some characters while they can do it. For example I don't see it as that useful on Link since he doesn't go very far and there isn't much more he can accomplish by doing so.

What is the point in gimping any person who does take the time to learn competitive ATs just so people who don't have the will to practice will have a better chance but probably still lose? If you care about winning but don't wish to put in the time and effort other people would put in to learn these techniques to get better. Then you are asking something unreasonable as a pseudo-competitor. I am guessing brawl is your favorite but what is the problem with giving both the competitive and casual side of smash a chance like melee did instead of catering to only one side like Brawl does. And before you say anything, melee was big with competitive but it also had the side of it which was just a bunch of fun. Neither of those playstyles were restricted just because somebody wanted everybody to play the same way by limiting options.

In melee I still have fun with friends playing four player free for all's sometimes with items sometimes not. Sometimes we do bowser challenges for fun (3 player controlled people on the same team no friendly fire, all playing bowser vs one person. It is actually pretty funny.) and sometimes we just do other things that don't have to do with being competitive at all. And don't get me started on when we all just play characters we don't particularly like or play at all, it is a train wreck of just going back to the basics.

I don't often run into people who play melee anymore and aren't competitive (it is a 10+? year old game by now) but if a friend asks for me to stop using wavedashing/L-canceling I will although it doesn't mean their chances of success are better since I have been playing the game for a while now. There is still DI, teching, chain grabs which almost all characters can do, ect ect ect.

Why is it so bad to give the competitive crowd the ability to play how they want to play just like how the casual players have their own way to play? Why force everybody to play one way? There aren't as many of us as you might believe. And SSB4 will be in between melee and brawl anyway so there is no use in hoping that it is Brawl 2.0 or melee 2.0. In the end most casual players will adopt SSB4 as their game, brawl will be left with a very small playerbase, and melee probably won't have any negative effects on it's remaining players. It might get a little bit more interest from being in Evo too.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yeah, no.
I'm not going to start a discussion on that with you until you can promise to refrain from misrepresenting the meanings of my posts for the sake of your own ends.
You know full well that that's not what I was getting at.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the gist of what you said. At the same time you contradicted what you said when you stated you wanted "players to get better wit time instead of learning a bunch of unnecessary technical skills", but isn't that the same thing? If there are no technical barriers to overcome then how are you getting better over time? So no advanced techniques so you can learn the game while not learning the game? You also stated you want anyone to be able to play on against better players, so, doe sthat mean you don't want anything in the game that distinguishes different skill levels? Your statement is all over the place dude/betty.

 

[---]

Am surprised none of you are talking about this recent interview:

"We don’t want to have a type of situation where you have a ranking pyramid, and only the people at the very top can enjoy it. I think there are other unique ways to be able to implement a system where people can get satisfaction out of performing at a skill level relative to their peer group.”

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Am surprised none of you are talking about this recent interview:

That article is pretty much a rehash of information that we already know. IGN was super late on posting it.

 

[SmashChu]

Ranking systems run into all kinds of problems. In Starcraft 2, people had ladder anxiety and cheesing was more prominent (suck to play for 5-10 minutes and then see a cannon proxy). In Awesomenauts, good players team up (called pre-mades) which gave them a distinct advantage over the less organized team. This ruined solo-queuing in the game.

Random is better that ranking matches.

 

[smashbrolink]

That article is pretty much a rehash of information that we already know. IGN was super late on posting it.

I just recently got around to reading the whole thing.
I'm curious as to how they'll be doing online since they have no plans for global ranking.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

I just recently got around to reading the whole thing.
I'm curious as to how they'll be doing online since they have no plans for global ranking.

I'm pretty sure its going to be similar to Brawl's, but with more functionality. Maybe having lobbies?

 

[---]

That article is pretty much a rehash of information that we already know. IGN was super late on posting it.

Past interviews have only stated he's not interested in a ranking system, this is the first time he's shown any interest towards online separation by skill.


Back on topic though, I have no idea on how he might separate people of different skill levels without some sort of ranking.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Smash online?

How much skill does it take just just run around and taunt

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Past interviews have only stated he's not interested in a ranking system, this is the first time he's shown any interest towards online separation by skill.


Back on topic though, I have no idea on how he might separate people of different skill levels without some sort of ranking.

Hmm, sorry about that. Everything, but that paragraph was a rehash. I saw that article earlier today and skimmed through it. For some reason my eye didn't catch that paragraph.

A lobby with room selections can easily be placed. For example Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate has a good set up. There a bunch of Realms such as Free, Low Rank, High Rank, and G Rank. From there players can see the rooms and the focus goal.

 

[smashbrolink]

I'm pretty sure its going to be similar to Brawl's, but with more functionality. Maybe having lobbies?

User-made lobbies would be great, but isn't that basically what our Friend's List already does for us, in a way?

 

[Chiroz]

I believe you can introduce an "invisible" ranking where players are placed into divisions and can only play with players pertaining to their own division yet they cannot see what division they belong to.

As you play you will go up and down your division but after consistently beating the top players at your division or consistently losing to the bottom players you will be moved up or down accordingly, but the beauty of it is that it is all hidden, the player will never have any knowledge of which division he is a part of.

For those of you who play League of Legend it would be the equivalent of Blind Pick, which has a hidden elo players could not see until the end of the whole season (and even then you were rewarded depending on which division you ended up in but your actual ELO was never shown).

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Ranking systems run into all kinds of problems. In Starcraft 2, people had ladder anxiety and cheesing was more prominent

Oh, yeah. When you play in a ranking system, you run into all kinds of problems. Like better players.

I like how you call it cheesing when it is really just natural evolution in competitive play. People shed strategies that simply don't work as they get better. I bet it will surprise you that sometimes the same strategies that don't work at a lower level work better at a higher level.

Back in the day, the most telling part is that everyone I had ever heard complain about the ranks or balances or cheeses in the game besides Idra were silver and gold tier scrubs who continued to play in spite of never getting better and constantly complaining about matches they nevertheless continued to participate in. As for better players who have ladder anxiety, get a grip on life. We're all gonna make it, brah. You're not obligated to play in ranked matches anyway.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

User-made lobbies would be great, but isn't that basically what our Friend's List already does for us, in a way?

Hmm there is a small difference to it. Let's say someone makes a room called Free-For-All Fun! The options are located below the title of the lobby. Before entering you can see that items would be turned on, if there is a time limit and / or stock, and other goodies. You could also potentially look for rooms where people are doing particular stuff that you want to do as well. If a lobby is doing 2v2s, you could find one and jump right in. They don't need to necessarily be your friends to play against them, but rather give the player options that fit their playing style or their mood.