OFFICIAL Whistle Armor Cancel (WAC) Thread! Updated 4/6/08! Info + Vids!

[HollaAtchaBoy]

Well, originally I was asking for evidence, but now I'm turning this into a compendium of Whistle knowledge. Toot-Toot.

What We Know:

Olimar's Down+B, the Whistle, has Super Armor frames. If you don't know what Super Armor is, it's similar to Yoshi's second jump, Dedede's Up+B, Snake's Up+B and perhaps more famously Ike's Neutral B and Up+B. When a character does a move with Super Armor frames, they take damage but do not flinch, meaning they suffer no knockback. Though specific frame-data isn't available, we can say that it starts with the very first frame, meaning that Whistling the precise frame that an attack hits will Whistle Cancel it.

An example:

As with all Super Armor moves, let me reiterate that Super Armor does not Cancel grabs.

Notable Moves Successfully Whistle Armor Canceled:
-DK's Donkey Punch
-Samus' Charge Shot
-Falco's Shine
-Sonic's Fair
-G&W's Turtle (Bair)
-All of Marth's Tippers
-MK's Shuttle Loop (Thank God!)
-Roughly most of Yoshi's Dair (I haven't gotten it all down)
-Peach's Stitchface

Notable Moves Proven Impossible to Whistle Armor Cancel:
-Any grab/throw
-Olimar's Pikmin Throw
-Ganondorf's Forward+B
-Captain Falcon's Up+B

The window of time when the Whistle's Super Armor is out is not exact, but I have successfully timed a Whistle at the beginning of Sonic's Fair and G&W's Turtle and canceled the entirety of both of them. Of course, this still only covers roughly the first third or maybe half of the entire Whistle maneuver, but it is still quite substantial. Because of the wide frame window, Whistle Armor is a very viable way to counter being juggled, smashed or edgeguarded.

There is a difference between Whistling in the air and on the ground. The Whistle in the air has a shorter duration, which means there is a bit more lag when Whistling on the ground. In the air, the Whistle can be used as an alternative to air-dodging. It is better than air-dodging in that it has a shorter duration, meaning a follow-up aerial can be done much faster than if you were to try after air-dodging. Also, the Whistle does not have as much momentum shift as an air-dodge, and one does not stray as far from their target as they do when air-dodging.

Another important note regarding the air Whistle Armor Cancel is that the Whistle has zero landing lag, meaning that short-hopping or landing into a Canceled Uptilt, for instance, can instantly be punished with a grab, Smash, tilt, jab, or dash attack. One proper technique that I personally haven't gotten a hold of is short hopping into an attack, Whistle Armor Canceling it, and following up. Though, this is very possible. Of course, you can't Whistle a frame before landing and expect there to be no lag, but somewhere after the Super Armor frames the animation does get canceled by landing.

On the ground more research needs to be done. It is clearly an alternative lag wise to Olimar's spot-dodge, but it remains to be seen if it is any easier or beneficial than a perfect shield. Regardless of the skill required to do it and the amount of lag afterwards, I would still contest that a perfect shield on the ground is better than a Whistle Armor Cancel simply because you don't take the damage. And judging by the kind of attacks one will want Whistle Armor Canceled the most often (aka high damage and high knockback attacks), if you're stable on the ground you'd probably be better off perfect shielding and not taking an extra 10-20% damage just to get in a smash attack or grab.

A few move specific mentions, the Whistle can cancel projectiles like Falco's lasers and Pit's arrows, and I believe I canceled Stitchface at one point, but this was not recorded. I have NOT tried to Whistle Cancel Fox's Shine, but I have successfully Canceled Falco's Shine numerous times. Whistles can NOT cancel throwing moves like the Koopa Klaw, Ganon's Forward+B and, interestingly, the Pikmin Throw.

A final note: the Whistle Cancel may seem very complicated, but given that I don't have the game and have easily played less than a 100 matches in it before making this post, it should be obvious that it is deceptively easy to pull off. Whether it turns into an advanced tactic that's a staple of advanced Olimar play is yet to be seen. I myself have had much trouble with Smashboards on my end and have been completely out of the loop regarding the state-of-the-art Olimar tactics and strategies found on this thread. According to TrueRedemption's thread...

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158890

... many Olimar players have begun to integrate it into their playing styles with varying amounts of success.

For now all I know is that it's straight up fun and it annoys the hell out of people who don't know how to fight Olimar.

Vids!

First video evidence at 1:45 (Thanks True): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GI9brPsnD0

A test video (Thanks Wararchon): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgJUsofOe-I

And my vids of my practice against other players:

HAB (Olimar) vs. BlueTerrorist (Sonic) #1: WAC at 2:33:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XabN-leo7UI

HAB (Olimar) vs BlueTerrorist (Sonic) #2: WAC'd Sonic's fair at 1:14:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xE9g94TBikI

HAB (Olimar) vs Pitfall (Falco): WAC'ing Falco's Laser from 1:11 to 1:24:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CbI04auLwVg

HAB (Olimar) vs Pitfall (Pit): WAC'ing Pit's Arrow at 3:15:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oM-mh7ZW1PY


UPDATED 04/06/08:

HAB (Olimar) vs DiAL (Marth): KEY WAC'ing at 0:14 and 1:19:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ui6ELU-_hz4

HAB (Olimar) vs DiAL (Marth): Check out 1:14 and 1:45:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NEPbXUHfhjo

HAB (Olimar) vs DiAL (Marth): Great landing WACs at 0:15, 0:20, 0:30, 1:21, 1:55, 2:46
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tKtJ2OYnTq4

HAB (Olimar) vs DiAL (Marth): MANY WACs. Worth checking out.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wSiu3eZhUSg


And now matches where the amount of WACs I pull off are too many to count:

GTFO Josh (DK) vs HAB (Olimar): My Whistle Armor exhibition #1:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=U_D5S1j-EJQ

Nuke (DK) vs HAB (Olimar): My Whistle Armor exhibition #2:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SjpJxEshwL0

Next are vids of Starzonedge, who has a particularly unique playstyle with Olimar. He integrates the WAC into his metagame much less often but most times to a more effect degree than I do, and it shows in his videos.

Shadow (Meta-Knight) vs Starzonedge (Olimar) #1: WACs coming soon:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=e2TSmVMtFDI

Shadow (Meta-Knight) vs Starzonedge (Olimar) #2: WACs coming soon:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lBsB7gmtphU

 

[TrueRedemption]

Phlemingo found the first video i saw of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GI9brPsnD0 @ 1:45, Olimer takes damage for dins fire but not knockback. Since then theres been confirmations by players, i'm not sure if theres been any more video though, i feel there is another one but can't remember it well enough to go looking.

Basically though the consensus is the super armor frames are very brief, thus making it not only very difficult to time, but moves that contact for an extended amount of time (Eg. Samus fully charged shot or many smash attacks) often last longer than the armor frames, so you'll take damage and then still knockback from the last part of the hit.


-True

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

Phlemingo found the first video i saw of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GI9brPsnD0 @ 1:45, Olimer takes damage for dins fire but not knockback. Since then theres been confirmations by players, i'm not sure if theres been any more video though, i feel there is another one but can't remember it well enough to go looking.

Basically though the consensus is the super armor frames are very brief, thus making it not only very difficult to time, but moves that contact for an extended amount of time (Eg. Samus fully charged shot or many smash attacks) often last longer than the armor frames, so you'll take damage and then still knockback from the last part of the hit.


-True

I've had some extended practice with it last week and found that moves with predictable windup, such as a Falcon Punch or Bowser FSmash (moves that Whistle Armor would have the most benefit for) are MUCH easier to Whistle Cancel than, say, a shine. Of course I'm not gonna try to Whistle Cancel a shine, but what I'm saying is that you really need to Whistle right when the attack is about to hit. I don't have exact frame data but I would say perhaps the first ten frames have the armor. It's not a huge window but once you get the hang of it it's really not that bad.

And actually I've seen that vid once but never noticed the Whistle Armor. I must have been blind. >_>

Again, I'll see if I can get anything up by Saturday.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Thanks for the input really, glad to hear you've been successful with it, though moves like those described you'd think it'd be easier to just get out of the way or punish the startup lag rather than take the %. It'd be great if it was really functional in general olimar play though, so i'm looking forward to your video.


-True

 

[Oceanborn]

More videos will definitely be helpful. I think WiFiWars had the video about Perfect Shielding, if we can get a video like that for the Whistle Armor that would be the best thing ever. I can't wait to test this out myself, no KB? That's a sure life saver, especially in tourneys.

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

More videos will definitely be helpful. I think WiFiWars had the video about Perfect Shielding, if we can get a video like that for the Whistle Armor that would be the best thing ever. I can't wait to test this out myself, no KB? That's a sure life saver, especially in tourneys.

Link plz?

I will most likely have my handy-dandy digicam, though. So whatever I get will not be a direct video rip from the game. I'll TRY to bring a VCR, and then give it to my friend who has the proper software, but hauling a heavy-*** VCR to Brooklyn from Manhattan on the subway is NOT so fun, I assure you. >_>

 

[Oceanborn]

Here you go: http://youtube.com/watch?v=LAbMhYmSy6Y

A Whistle Armor version of that would be awesome.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Oceanborn beat me to it, but i have some ideas for the video if you make one:

You could show timing details, like have an example of whistling just a couple frames too early, and another a couple frames too late, it would really help give an idea about the time frame were working with.

Also any details on the attacks that sorta pause and hit for a while would be awesome, like a list of which moves can't be SA absorbed in the few frames Olimar has.

Also perhaps comparing it to an airdodge could be good, for instance how soon after a whistle can you attack, and how soon after an air dodge can you attack, for all we know it may be a better idea to jump into these attacks, dodge them, and then pull out a FAir faster than you could SA absorb the hit and grab the guy, not to mention air dodges don't get the %

Just some ideas, thanks for whatever effort you do make =)


-True

 

[Oceanborn]

Just to add on to that, using the speed manipulator in Training Mode would be very helpful for such a test as well. People have been using that feature to show such techniques like the "reverse air", and would be perfect for this. Whoever plans on testing this and making a video out of it, lol.

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

Just to add on to that, using the speed manipulator in Training Mode would be very helpful for such a test as well. People have been using that feature to show such techniques like the "reverse air", and would be perfect for this. Whoever plans on testing this and making a video out of it, lol.

Well, this Smash event my good friend is having starts at noon, and at the earliest I'll get there at three. So, by then many people will be there playing singles, doubles, MMs, etc. It's gonna be a hectic day and taking time out to do training mode is all but out of the question unfortunately. But hey! That means you get to see it in action!

 

[Oceanborn]

Oh no I wasn't requesting it, just thought it'd be a good idea just incase someone's actually planning on making a tutorial-type video. But yeah definitely I can't wait to see you do them. I've personally only seen the VS Zelda match.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Without owning the game, to charge head first into a smashfest looking to come away with specific evidence about such a timing specific technique is incredible. I have this mental image of multiple videos of Olimar jumping around half playing half preoccupied with his whistle just getting beaten up and down the stage cause your trying to get the timing right =P

Hopefully of course that won't happen, your confidence that you can hit the timing against real opponents is encouraging, perhaps super armor will be a usable advantage olimar can add to the rest.


-True

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

Without owning the game, to charge head first into a smashfest looking to come away with specific evidence about such a timing specific technique is incredible. I have this mental image of multiple videos of Olimar jumping around half playing half preoccupied with his whistle just getting beaten up and down the stage cause your trying to get the timing right =P

Hopefully of course that won't happen, your confidence that you can hit the timing against real opponents is encouraging, perhaps super armor will be a usable advantage olimar can add to the rest.


-True

No, I think that first part is actually pretty spot on. That's how it was last week. ^_^

I mostly play Dedede and ROB in Brawl so far, but I don't know if I'd want to main either of them. I'm learning Olimar slowly, mostly because each time I've played up until last week was a FFA, due to high demand to play the game. So I finally sat down to some 1v1s and tried some things out. I really wanna get better with him, but trying to learn to play him involves many things, and for me right at the top of the list is Whistle Armor. ^_^ I will make it viable, dammit.

 

[Super_Nostalgic]

I love the enthusiasm there. It's that kind of attitude that makes someone great. Here's something I thought of a while ago, but didn't know where to post it. To get a feel for when the armor happens and how long it lasts, couldn't you theoretically have 1 or more Fox's spam their lasers with you in the middle constantly whistling? Or am I not getting the concept of super armor in it having no knockback? If my thought of super armor is wrong, they try it with something like Falco's blaster then.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Yeah super armor only stops knockback, so the Fox idea comes up short, falco however could work. I have a feeling that if it does prove viable it'll be no necessarily an AT, but similar to wavedashing in SSBM, it'll take some practice and work, but so long as you do practice and keep at it you'll eventually adopt it, making it almost second nature. However to correctly use this the player is not only going to have to have a vast knowledge of all the moves opponents could use against him, but also incredible mind games to anticipate it as well as it'll need to be taken advantage of somehow so need to throw in a grab or whatever after it. Its a neat idea, I hope it comes out well like i said, but personally I think getting a hold on perfect shielding timing may be a little better use of your time right now. Prove me wrong =)


-True

 

[Super_Nostalgic]

I would LOVE to prove you wrong, but at this point, I sadly can't. In 10 days, then... you'll see... But I honestly think it shouldn't take THAT long to get used to it. I mean, look at people who can reflect projectiles w/ Fox's or Falco's reflector! They keep it out for just an instant and manage to reflect the thing. Perfect shield certainly has it's advantages over whistle shielding. But whistle has it's uses to, like you said. I'm gonna leave it at this until the game comes out: This is kind of a pointless debate on how reliable it is, it takes time to get the feel of the super armor frames, and seeing as few have the game right now, there really isn't much else to be said.

 

[Yokipi]

Well, I got a chance to try it, and it's easier to do than it seems. I'd say it's just a little easier than Perfect Shielding, which is quite easy to do. (I haven't mastered it yet, but being able to do it at least a few times on my first hour of playing must mean it's not overly difficult.) I think the frames last longer than the counter frames (which I've NEVER been able to time). However, I haven't been able to use it with any usefulness. I think PSing might be the better choice, as suggested.

 

[Oceanborn]

Hm, I'd just be concerned about the KB resistance. I have this image in my mind where Olimar withstands a Warlock Punch with the whistle. Not sure if the armor applies to that but it would be nice.

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

Okay. So...

I have fewer vids than expected (What can I say? People wanted to play my ROB more.) But I did get a few. And I played a few matches I couldn't record. But since it's late and I don't feel like upping, here's my report...

Whistle Armor IS SOOOOOO VIABLE! Regardless of the numerous uses it can have on the ground (and I will contest that Perfect Shielding is just as easy), Whistle Armor is KEY to playing Olimar in the air. When being juggled or potentially edgeguarded, it could be the greatest thing ever. I played against a fair share of Sonics and Whistle Canceled every attempt to Uair me. Similarly, when recovering a well placed Whistle would destroy their main offensive edgeguard technique (Well, save for the fair, which is a multi-hit.)

Whistle Armor really shined when Basic Sausage and I played against D1 and NYC FaB in teams. Sausage and I were going double Dedede, to which D1 and FaB counterpicked the Earthbound twins. Sausage and I then went double Olimar (!) and DESTROYED them. The reason? Any time Lucas went to edgeguard with the backair was swiftly Whistle Canceled by Sausage and me. Also, any Lucas sticking, Ness batting or Lucas's ridiculously powerful Upsmash. The best part of the latter move is the horrible ending lag it has, allowing for a half-fully charged Upsmash on my end to counter. I am SO angry that I didn't get any vids of this but there was literally no space.

Also, it DOES cancel the stun on Falco's lasers but... there is no practical use for it, really.

I'll try to come up with more in a bit but I will let you know that it is an amazing AT, and very easy to learn.

 

[Hardcorenesser]

Joe i like your sig. it's pretty boss. As for whistle armor, that's gonna annoy the **** out of me...

 

[TrueRedemption]

This is exciting, and I'm looking forward to anything you do have video wise/more observations you may have forgotten to put in your last post. I honestly have no idea about knockback from a perfect shield, I would be surprised if there wasn't some though certainly reduced from regular shield knockback, either way the ground uses of whistle super armor (should we call it WSA or something? sorta long...) give options where there is no knockback. I expect this will only develop to be more important as all characters can perfect shield, and naturally counters/techniques to avoid perfect shielding will develop, but Olimar will also have this similar yet different option available. Even if it doesn't become important on the ground as you mentioned a shield in the air is an interesting development with plenty of options attached. Again though it needs to be compared to simply air dodging instead. So if you have anything to add comparing WSA to perfect shielding and air dodging it'd be much appreciated. And of course looking forward to the video, let us know when its up =)


-True

 

[Super_Nostalgic]

Wifi Wars has a video on Youtube up all about Perfect Shielding. It eliminates all knockback and leaves them open for a perfect counter attack.

Random: I found a person in my area that has brawl, so I'll get to play as Olimar tonight. I'll try how easy it is for someone who has never played the game to pick up Olimar and attempt WA

 

[Marilink]

Would someone be so kind as to explaining Whistle Armor and Whistle Cancel? I'm curious.

 

[Super_Nostalgic]

WA and WAS are terms used to describe the first frames of Olimars Whistle, which has Super Armor. So, it became to be known as Whistle Armor. Whistle cancel is just the term of using whistle armor to cancel any knockback that would other wise sent you flying.

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

A few more bits of insight. I'm posting a link to my YouTube playlist for Whistle Armor:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EC6E0830A32A0158

I Whistled right at the start of Sonic's fair in one vid. After looking at my video against Sonic frame by frame (not actual framerate in game, but still), I found that save for the last two or three hits of Sonic's fair, the whistle canceled every bit of it. If I'm right in saying that the Whistle started up at the same frame as the attack, that's looking like a pretty big frame window to Whistle Armor Cancel (I'm saying WAC from now on).

Also, to the argument of air-dodging in the air and spot-dodging/perfect shielding on the ground as being more practical that the Whistle, I can't really answer that. I've been trying both and intergrating the Whistle into gameplay, but I don't really see that big of a difference yet. Lag wise it looks like you'd have just about equal lag from a perfect shield that you would from a WAC, and given that Olimar's spot-dodge isn't that great, I'd say it eliminates it from practicality when given these two other options.

In the air it's no question. WACing is much better lag-wise than an air-dodge. Especially when you consider the change in direction you may get while air-dodging. Also, in one of the later vids (either the last or second to last), I point out that the Whistle has a shorter duration in the air than it does on the ground, so that just adds to my point.

If this isn't argument enough, I'd like to make mention that even if you find perfect shielding easier, I think knowing how to WAC is a good thing to know and keep in the back of your head. If for no other reason, consider that especially if you're playing against a character who lacks in range (in my case DK), you're probably gonna be Forward+Bing a bit to camp. If all of a sudden someone breaks through your Pikmin raining and tries to hit you, a WAC will be better than a perfect-shield for no other reason than it's intended purpose; summoning Pikmin back to you, so that when you punish a WACed FSmash with a DownSmash, you get the best Pikmin in the front of the line for it, namely Yellows and Reds. Even if not, next on the list is Blues, and they can punish with a heavily-ranged grab.

If anyone has any other questions, let me know. I know, I'm not very good with Olimar and Youtube ****s with the quality of videos (especially when there's no VCR >_>).

 

[Wararchon]

Took me quite a while to find it. Here it is, the answer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgJUsofOe-I

the damage still counts because when olimar gets hit, the damage percentage tries to go up but can't.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Wow, I'd like to write another monster post, but i'm pretty tired, we'll see where this goes and maybe get the rest in the morning.

First things first, thanks for the vids, not only has new Olimar material been slightly more scarce of late its seemed, but you also put up a large number of videos for any single occasion.

Next, completely off topic as far as WAC, I'd just like to point out how you show yet another completely new play style compared to the Echo and DSF styles seen so far. Your love of DSmash doesn't necessarily seem like a bad thing, I'd love to hear why you go to it so frequently. One comment about your FSmash DSmash and BSide heavy play style is that for the most part it seemingly keeps you from linking many moves, consequently lowering your damage done. Of course as your ability to use Olimar and these moves improve theres no reason you won't simply get better at hitting and do more damage, however I feel theres something you truly need to add to help this approach to Olimar. Your DSmash is a unique move for Olimar because it keeps the opponent so low to the ground, most of the knockback pushing horizontally. To get horizontal kills you need to develop effective edge guarding, especially due to the generally increased recovery ability of most characters in Brawl. Obviously doing enough damage that they are side KO walled works too, but KOing at lower percents is good no matter what, especially as your current staple moves aren't combo heavy as mentioned earlier. Still though, its really incredible to see three very different play styles for the same character, I doubt if you could come up with 3 separate yet workable approaches of how to play most other characters. I simply don't believe many characters have the options Echo DSF and you have shown that Olimar has.

WAC, I'm really not sure where to begin. First the air hits you took were pretty remarkable, how little lag you showed seems to certainly be an improvement from air dodging. I couldn't really tell however if you were struggling to do much with the WAC opportunity, or simply were so focused on trying to time it right that when you got it you weren't really thinking ahead about trying to use it and land a move. Ultimately of course thats what it'll come down to, how much use you can make of it, though naturally a player will have to be able to get the WAC consistently before they'll be able to make much use of it.
(Sidenote, if WAC is really what sticks as far as name goes, there are going to be so many jokes...)

As for the grounded WAC, it raises a somewhat interesting question. Olimar is already showing an oddity as far as grabs are concern, Echo finding that half the brawl cast can be picked up off the ledge by pikmin. The description of super armor on the dojo does not mention grabs, only that Ike doesn't flinch when hit waiting on his UpB. Super Armor being such a weird new ability, clearly programmed separately, whats to say that super armor characters aren't also immune to grabs? Obviously this could be borderline broken, and would certainly become an incredible factor of brawl's meta game, even this early. I highly doubt (or perhaps even hope) that you are immune to grab, but this certainly is worth investigation. I suggest this is looked into by a couple people who have the game at their disposal though, and wouldn't mind putting forth a half an hour or an hour with a friend just testing this very basically. Attempting to determine if it is possible in a real game would be an annoying guessing game that i doubt would ever prove anything for sure.

If ground WAC was immune to grabs, GG. The advantages you listed already apply, not to mention that they also couldn't run in and grab you, which would create an incredible mind game as to whether you were going to WAC or perfect shield. Then you'd be able to get away with perfect shielding some of the time, getting counter hits without any %. (Thats assuming we don't actually figure out a way to lag cancel into whistle, which would only make olimar that much more "invincible")

I'm running out of steam though, so i'm gonna just end it with this general statement we can apply to just about any detailed interesting aspect of Olimar. You've proven its viable, and very potentially a major help. Now we need to figure out all the little details we can about this, so we can best figure out how to use it for its greatest advantage.

Again great work, you did prove/make it viable like you said =) Unfortunately, that means the real work has just begun. No worries though, a week from now, i'll be able to go and figure out all the answers to my questions on my own, and rather than possible detailed speculation about how things work, it'll become the details of how they work and suggestions for in game use =)


-True

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

When the time comes that we can unlock and rip matched recorded with Brawl's save feature, you guys will really see something.

I had a long hard series of about 15-20 matches with D1's Ike today, and he was very not happy at my Whistle Armor tricks. Unfortunately I didn't have my cam on me, and we resorted to recording the matches that way (as many as we could that were under 3:00). The amount of 30+% hits I took to the face and WACed was just unbelievable. Ike's moves are highly punishable. However, I made a very interesting discovery. Of course, you guys probably already know this.

The Whistle has zero landing lag if done in the air.

This means that when Ike tries to land an uptilt while I'm trying to land, and I WAC it, once I land I can follow up with anything. Downsmash, Forward Smash, Grab, uptilt, dash attack, all of which I did against him. Similarly, I've had him try to intercept me when edgeguarding only to WAC, and punish with either a fair or dair spike. It is truly epic.

Also, you guys would be proud of me. Many matches consisted of Forward+Bing Pikmin off the edge to edgeguard Ike's Forward+B recovery. The reason this is effective is that no matter how little or much it's charged, the Pikmin attached to him will take the hit and cause him to go nowhere. I had one match where his Ftilt and my fair both hit, and I jumped to throw a Yellowy off the side, and right as he was about to unleash the Forward+B to sweetspot the ledge, the Pikmin attached to him and negated any forward movement the move had. Just another little tidbit I wanted to throw out there.

However, I will let you know that Peach counters Olimar like I could never understand. The landing lag of a floated fair is so little that I couldn't even jab or shield grab before the jab combo came out. Also her fair and nair have such RIDICULOUS priority that any of Olimar's neutrals, save for maybe a well-timed Uair from underneath, are always outprioritized.

To get to your post, True, I only favor the Dsmash because, quite frankly, I'm not very good at Smash, and many times I don't space properly. As such, the amount of times my back is accidentally turned is embarrassingly high. So I do use the Dsmash a little too often. Though I have begun to LOVE the utilt and the dtilt, and am using them much more now. And as I was doing the matches most of the time I was just trying to get the feel for the WAC down, but the next day at the NYU event I'd had two whole days worth of practice and was beginning to feel for how to string things together. (WACed aerial to dash attack, uair to fair, for instance)

Super Armor is not immune to grab. I believe I've proven that, but I don't have it on film. So, so much for God Tier.

Just another little post. Let me know if you guys have any questions.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Good to hear your having success with it. Particulars don't develop immediately so just trying it at different times and seeing what you can get out of it like you are is how we'll find its best uses. Midair WACs definitely seem incredible, if for nothing else to aid overcoming recovery issues. Regarding the 0 landing lag of WAC the next idea there could be to jump in at your opponent ungaurded, WAC -> Land Cancel -> Devastating move. Imagine if you did that into a grab -> Textbook combo, wow. Unfortunately at least to my knowledge there are few true combos for Olimar yet, textbook certainly not being inescapable. If some do develop though this could become a very interesting approach technique. Certainly it'll also be useful for getting that last KO move to land, but I'm really looking for something more like a combo that would do more damage than whatever move your going to absorb in the process. Keep up the good work, don't forget your camera next time =P


-True

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

My new sig is amazing.

I updated the first post to be a compendium of WAC knowledge. Hope that helps everyone.

Hm, I'd just be concerned about the KB resistance. I have this image in my mind where Olimar withstands a Warlock Punch with the whistle. Not sure if the armor applies to that but it would be nice.

Not a Warlock Punch but... how about a Donkey Punch?

I think that explains things.

 

[Hammydude]

The only thing with the move that I'm concerned about is the timing. It doesn't look like the chances are high of landing the whistle shield with each major blow that is thrown at you. I do now see a more practical use for the whistle though. Major power moves like the warlock punch or the DK punch lag at the end, leaving you with some time so get a few hits in. (Also it wont kill you cause you don't flinch)

So my only question: is the timing hard, and if not, is the move still practical?

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

The only thing with the move that I'm concerned about is the timing. It doesn't look like the chances are high of landing the whistle shield with each major blow that is thrown at you. I do now see a more practical use for the whistle though. Major power moves like the warlock punch or the DK punch lag at the end, leaving you with some time so get a few hits in. (Also it wont kill you cause you don't flinch)

So my only question: is the timing hard, and if not, is the move still practical?

Well, I guess I'm editing the first post again sometime soon.

The timing is not hard at all. As I said before, the frame window is rather big and once you do it ten or twenty times you really start to get the hang of it.

Because of this, with proper timing one can pre-Whistle while a move is winding up and catch the blow at the tail-end of the window, maximizing the amount of time to punish.

Of course, THAT is gonna take a lot longer to get used to, as I haven't the foggiest where to begin learning to do that.

And as I mentioned before, it's not just huge power moves that can get punished. I was playing a Falco who was spamming Shine to try and keep me at bay (weird, right?) and once I figured out what he was doing I just timed a running Whistle and took advantage of it.

(A minor note: Moves like the Shine and Ness' bat (tipped) will reflect the Forward+B and the Pikmin will hurt you. Ow.)

Mario's FSmash was also WACed and punished pretty well as well, and that has very little lag. Of course, you start to judge which moves have so much wind-down and what you can get away with. I'm not gonna try to FSmash out of a WACed FSmash like I do a WACed Donkey Punch, but I will dtilt it.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Great work editing/reworking the first post. Its a great resource effectively summarizing what we've found so far, and what were still looking in to. Really like the gif video clip, definitely helps get the idea across. Don't really have much to add or ask about, I still believe this will become a much more important technique once some real combos develop for Olimar. I'll take your word on its uses for recovery though. Keep up the good work, don't stop trying stuff, were stating to really figure it out =)


-True

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

Great work editing/reworking the first post. Its a great resource effectively summarizing what we've found so far, and what were still looking in to. Really like the gif video clip, definitely helps get the idea across. Don't really have much to add or ask about, I still believe this will become a much more important technique once some real combos develop for Olimar. I'll take your word on its uses for recovery though. Keep up the good work, don't stop trying stuff, were stating to really figure it out =)


-True

Now if only a mod would sticky it. *GrumbleGrumble*

Also, I just watched the new 3:10 to Yuma and it was AWESOME.

Back on topic, would someone be able to test if they can cancel Fox/Wolf's Shine? I can't play again till Friday and that's a stretch. I'd have to wait till it comes out.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Aw wouldn't hate on the mods, i can't imagine the amount of stuff they are expected to do, there really aren't many at all running this whole place, its really impressive. In time as we figure out more I'm confident it will, but if WAC doesn't turn out to be character defining I'm sure if nothing else it could be copied into Echo's guide for a section, probably not yet until we get a better hold on it completely and assess its value. It'll be really interesting these next few weeks how much faster everything will go once we all have brawl. We'll fill in the basic/easy/testable things at least, who knows where it'll go from there.


-True

 

[Oceanborn]

Weird, I was about to suggest the same thing. Since Echo already has a guide up, it would be more convenient to just have all the stuff there. Just ask to be credited for it if you would prefer it. As for getting ahold of the game, don't worry, we have around 4 days left until Saturday's midnight release.

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

Weird, I was about to suggest the same thing. Since Echo already has a guide up, it would be more convenient to just have all the stuff there. Just ask to be credited for it if you would prefer it. As for getting ahold of the game, don't worry, we have around 4 days left until Saturday's midnight release.

I'm so hyped. ^^

But yeah, I don't need credit for this. I just don't want so many redundant posts made on the boards. >_>

Okay, maybe a little credit would be nice.

 

[PXG]

I heard a lot about this but didn't know it was true. Holy ****. That is crazy how a little guy like that has Super Armor. In the right hands, Olimar will be tough to beat.

 

[SKEET SHADY]

Good look on finding out about the whistle armor. I've tested it out in a couple of friendlies, it is the ultimate combo stopper.

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

Good look on finding out about the whistle armor. I've tested it out in a couple of friendlies, it is the ultimate combo stopper.

Well, not really a combo stopper. I mean a true combo is unable to have any way to be escaped. The Textbook Combo, for instance, is close to a true combo, but has moments that can be shielded/spot-dodged/WACed.

First post updated again, with specific vids and WACing instances.

Also: Love the handle. ^^