Observation on Grabbing

[Corigames]

I get the feeling that I either wrote the OP in such a way that no one gets what I'm saying or that people just see me complaining about grabbing and assume my problem.
I'm not saying I have a problem grabbing other people, I'm not saying that people grab me all the time, I'm not saying that I have problems with characters that shield, I'm not saying that the grab is useless, I'm not saying that she doesn't have anything OoS, etc.

If you are playing Fox, Falco, Shiek, Marth, Peach, Falcon, Dr, Ganon, Jiggly, IC's, etc. and someone puts pressure on your shield, you can grab them out of it in most cases. If you approach and attack practically any character's shield, they can simply grab you out of it. One more time for good measure: You are playing a non-Samus character and someone does an aerial, dash attack, f/d/u smash, or anything else that hits your shield. You simply press A and nab them, even out of the air before they even have a chance to land, for free punishment. On top of that, the grabs don't last so long that, if the shield grab misses, punishment is guaranteed.

Due to the wind-up time on Samus' grab, it makes it hard to simply shield grab like, basically, any other character can in the same situation. This forces her to either UpB, WD back, Jab, Tilt, or anything else OoS except grab. Meaning, a player that puts effective shield pressure on you can lock you in a position of perpetual defense if you aren't careful. I wanted to present this observation and see if other people agreed with it, disagreed with it, gave alternatives to avoid it, and so on.

you LITERALLY can just mix up wavedash back down smash/any-tilt a bunch of times
with
wavedash back grab (AFTER conditioning them do this)

you can't react to it you have to expect it. Their reaction time to grab btw also slows down considerably to the grab after they are SURE you won't do it (by conditioning them)

I like that; I'll bear that in mind. Thanks.

 

[bubbaking]

Hmmm, maybe try this? WD back oos>dash grab. Less lag, and when they see you wd oos, they might opt to shield right then.

 

[Mew2King]

if i speak too complex, it will not be remembered.

 

[bubbaking]

Ah yes, I remember you saying that on KK's new Sheik MU thread.

 

[DuckPimp]

if i speak too complex, it will not be remembered.

who cares if an ignorant majority doesnt care about/remember a super in-depth m2k post? what matters is if a few dedicated individuals take in the knowledge and become better because of it

 

[bubbaking]

Well, maybe we're looking at this wrong. Maybe what he's saying is that if he makes his post too complex, he'll forget what he was talking about. Seriously though, by simplifying things, I guess we have more room to expand on what's being said. Telling us exactly how he does things would only cause us to emulate his style and way of thinking. That's the way I see it, anyway...

 

[Pi]

corey not having a grab OoS is not samus main deficiency
not having a roll is way worse

our UB effectively replaces our grab, if we can't UB them it's the same as other chars getting shield pressured out side of their grab range, or from behind their shield

people fear attacking samus shield for more than they do attacking ganons shield

if you're talking about marth spacing fairs on your shield outside of UB range, or spacies bairs, or shield pressure spaced outside of your UB range, well we're not the only char who suffers from that
every char w/ ****ty grab range can't do ****, as well as not being able to do **** if they're getting pressured from behind

i think you're blowing the fact that samus can't shield grab out of proportion

and the situation where your opponent predicts exactly where ur going to shield should not arise very often so spaced shield pressure shouldn't be a game changing issue

and it's not like samus isn't w/o her pseudo shield pressure either

delayed nairs can't be grabbed, spaced jabs can't be grabbed by chars other than marth
ftilts can't be punished by everyone

 

[Corigames]

corey not having a grab OoS is not samus main deficiency

In which post did I make this claim?

our UB effectively replaces our grab, if we can't UB them it's the same as other chars getting shield pressured out side of their grab range, or from behind their shield

Proper positioning to shield pressure to avoid getting grabbed, as you said, also works to avoid getting screw attacked. On top of that, the screw attack is no where near as good as landing a grab: it does little damage, requires you to ledge cancel/have platforms/ lucky DI and it doesn't lead to anything - it just stops what was going on and resets things for a moment.

people fear attacking samus shield for more than they do attacking ganons shield

Dat Electric Backhand though : O

every char w/ ****ty grab range can't do ****, as well as not being able to do **** if they're getting pressured from behind
i think you're blowing the fact that samus can't shield grab out of proportion

Re-read the op please "...her grapple just has too long of a wind-up before the grab actually comes out to effectively use as a shield punishment. That's ok, we just have to use something else. It's not the end of the world..."
I'm not blowing anything out of any proportion. People just aren't comprehending the words that I'm putting onto this thread and it's becoming increasingly frustrating that I'm constantly restating what I've already said. So, of course, as I reiterate my thoughts I'm going to lose some of the original, but I never said that this was some game-stopping, Samus crushing, forfeit at the character select screen, or anything else over-the-top like that bull****. I simply said: Other characters can do this, Samus apparently can't. Do you guys agree/disagree and have ideas to get around it?
Stop taking my words out of proportion. Please : )

and it's not like samus isn't w/o her pseudo shield pressure either

In which post did I claim that she was lacking in that regard?

delayed nairs can't be grabbed, spaced jabs can't be grabbed by chars other than marth
ftilts can't be punished by everyone

You could probably get punished for it if you do it every time, but, yeah, those would be hard to hit through.

 

[Pi]

ok let me fix ur OP then

samus can't grab OoS vs. heavy shield pressure
agree or disagree?
how do you deal with it.

generally samus best options vs shield pressure are to: ub it, wavedash out of it, or spot dodge and then punish (nair OoS also applicable, roll applicable but not advised vs. competent opponent)

and then to add onto your later point

if you can't do any of that, then grats you're fighting a good opponent and you've been put in a terrible position
make note of it and try not to let it happen again

sorry for the misunderstanding corey, hope this helps.

 

[bubbaking]

On top of that, the screw attack is no where near as good as landing a grab: it does little damage, requires you to ledge cancel/have platforms/ lucky DI and it doesn't lead to anything - it just stops what was going on and resets things for a moment.

Hmmm, the screw attack actually racks up damage pretty quickly, almost always doing 8+ damage if done properly. On top of that, many times, an irked opponent will lose his cool after being hit by it and will immediately try to attack you again, leading to another upB 8+ more damage.

Dat Electric Backhand though : O

Ganon's jab probably isn't as good as other oos options simply because he has to put his shield down before he can do it. I'm not sure if jab can be JC'd but if not, then he can't do it oos.

 

[McNinja]

If you get a grab vs. The screw attack, grab can lead into a ton of other things. I.e. charge shot. Whereas screw attack leads into... well nothing. What makes the grab so much better than the screw attack is its combo ability.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh, I am in no way comparing the screw attack to Samus's grab. The potential things she can do off of a grab are clearly superior. I was just stating how her upB actually isn't that bad when you think about it.

Edit: My favorite trick w/ the Screw Attack takes place when Spacees and Falcon counterpick Stadium against Samus. After the rock mountain transformation, I bait them into there and use Samus's upwards priority to tack on damage. It's better to use uair before incapacitating yourself w/ upB. One just has to be careful not to get infinite shined against the walls or pillared by Falco (and Falcon in a way).

 

[DarrellD]

I never thought samus's grab was anything but mediocre. Only good on fast fallers at mid percent and floaties that land on a platform or DI reeeeeal hard in. Screw attack is more of resetting the field. Kinda like stopping re match and putting you ad your opponent on both sides.

Screw>grab. It's how I roll 8D

 

[Pi]

don't forget to ledgecancel ur screw attack
it can combo, or lead into a tech chase

also if you screw attack onto the top platform or something, or just above a platform, it gives u time to punish ur opponents tech if he lands on that platform

 

[bubbaking]

I never thought samus's grab was anything but mediocre. Only good on fast fallers at mid percent and floaties that land on a platform or DI reeeeeal hard in.

Well, to be honest, most of Samus's guaranteed combos are off of her grabs. Also, I'm pretty sure (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that on floaties, dthrow almost always combos into nair at most percents above 0 (maybe even at 0). It's one of my major ways of killing Jiggs.

 

[Violence]

If you rely on grab to kill Jiggs, you are not playing a good Jiggs.

 

[McNinja]

If you rely on grab to kill Jiggs, you are not playing a good Jiggs.

^agree. I never get the chance to grab jiggs.

 

[Pi]

^i wouldn't go so far as to say that...
jiggs has a lot of very good OoS options vs. samus
and the general mentality about samus is that she can't do **** vs. shield

couple that w/ her projectiles, and i find my self in positions to grab jiggs (even hbox) more often than you might think

granted, with proper matchup knowledge i don't think the jiggs ever NEEDS to put herself in a position to be grabbed
but since it's noted as not much of a threat, often times they will

so don't play the jiggs samus matchup with the mentality of 'i should never grab'
if she shields predicably, grab her and get your free damage/kill


P.S. McNinja, BairJew, and Van
do yall live near each other? what are you all doing on sunday? if you're down i was thinking of gathering some people up and coming to smash w/ yall on sunday to train yall up
+i said i would get friendlies w/ you at advent and i only got a couple, sorry about that
but yea if yall can get together on sunday i'll gather up some people and drive over

 

[BairJew]

^Yeah we all live pretty close to each other. McNinja is leavin' friday for most of break, but me and Van might be able to work something out hopefully it will be possible. But yea it sucked I only played 1 match with you.

 

[Van.]

^i wouldn't go so far as to say that...
Jiggs has a lot of very good oos options vs. Samus
and the general mentality about samus is that she can't do **** vs. Shield

couple that w/ her projectiles, and i find my self in positions to grab jiggs (even hbox) more often than you might think

granted, with proper matchup knowledge i don't think the jiggs ever needs to put herself in a position to be grabbed
but since it's noted as not much of a threat, often times they will

so don't play the jiggs samus matchup with the mentality of 'i should never grab'
if she shields predicably, grab her and get your free damage/kill


p.s. Mcninja, bairjew, and van
do yall live near each other? What are you all doing on sunday? If you're down i was thinking of gathering some people up and coming to smash w/ yall on sunday to train yall up
+i said i would get friendlies w/ you at advent and i only got a couple, sorry about that
but yea if yall can get together on sunday i'll gather up some people and drive over

^yyyyyeeeesssssssssssssssssssss

 

[bubbaking]

Van.....you're not VanZ, right? O_o

 

[Beat!]

No, he's not. VanZ is a moderator. Check the Peach boards.

 

[bubbaking]

Ok, thought so. Just curious after seeing the similarity in names...

 

[Van.]

Van.....you're not VanZ, right? O_o

i've always said that if three people mention this i would change my name

we're up to two now

I'm sweating bullets over here

 

[crush]

i've always said that if three people mention this i would change my name

we're up to two now

I'm sweating bullets over here

Forgot to tell you bro, great performance with peach at the big house.



In other news: <333 bairjew

 

[Van.]

god damn it crush

but i'm a man of my word

from this day forward, my new name is Baction Assturd

 

[McNinja]

Hmm.... I could see that.



And @Crush, yes. Bairjew is pretty awesome.

 

[crush]

<3 bairjew

 

[bubbaking]

Some recent tourney?