• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Not an Echo Fighter?

pupNapoleon

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
8,952
Location
Miami, NYC
NNID
NapoleonPlays
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
Hello Friends.

I'm here to bring the conversation to the board as to what makes Young Link different from Toon Link.
At this point, I do not know, but I do think evidence added could be amended to this first post.

They do not appear to have majorly, if different at all, hitboxes.
Perhaps one plays at Melee speed (for Melee fans) and one at Brawl Speed?
 

DaDavid

Just Another Sword User
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
2,206
Location
Probably at work.
NNID
DaDavidEffect
Switch FC
SW-7381-1262-2246
Does Tink have fire arrows? That's a different property right there if not. Toon Link's dair has also always been different compared to Link's in that it plummets him straight down, so, unless they've changed that, that's another difference. I believe they also showed that he has a new f smash, whereas I think Young Link retains the classic 1-2 hit.

In general I think that, aside from his size, Young Link is a closer match to Melee Adult Link than he ever was to Toon Link.
 

PK Bash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
196
Even excluding the different physics and stuff between Melee and Brawl, Young Link and Toon Link never really felt the same. Some of the more obvious differences are with their aerials such as Nair (Young Link's nair is a sex kick like adult Link's nair has been), Bair (again, young Link kicks like adult Link), Fair and Dair (Toon Link is a stall-then-fall move), and some grounded moves too like jabs (Young Link always had the option to multijab). Fire Arrows that Toon Link doesn't have, and If I remember rightly Young Link's spin attack works a little bit differently (Toon Link's only hits once I think? Not sure about that one). There are probably going to be a few other subtleties like changed properties to some other shared moves or some new moves to minimise shared moves, and their physics are also likely to be quite different, but now I'm getting into speculation. Certainly some notable differences though!
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
10,478
Up-smashes don't match.

Boom. Not an Echo Fighter.
 

DaDavid

Just Another Sword User
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
2,206
Location
Probably at work.
NNID
DaDavidEffect
Switch FC
SW-7381-1262-2246
If I remember rightly Young Link's spin attack works a little bit differently (Toon Link's only hits once I think? Not sure about that one)
I think it's the exact opposite actually. Tink's multi-hits and keeps you in the animation until the last hit pushes you out while Adult/Young Link hits once.

Either way, yes, the two characters have always been very different.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
10,478
In Melee, Young Link's spin attack multi-hit and then threw the opponent out. I'm not aware of any footage of Young Link's grounded up-B in SSBU.
 

DaDavid

Just Another Sword User
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
2,206
Location
Probably at work.
NNID
DaDavidEffect
Switch FC
SW-7381-1262-2246
Okay then, it might be the case that their spin attacks are the same, since Toon Link's grounded up B definitely also multi hits.

That said, Young Links bombs changed to a single hit (or so I heard) so maybe they changed the up B too.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
10,478
Also keep in mind that the term "Echo Fighter" is largely meaningless. Whether a particular fighter is an EF has zero impact on their viability. I mean, just look at Melee: Marth and Roy were effectively identical, but just their property variance resulted in one being almost top tier and one being almost bottom tier.
 

Votega

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 11, 2014
Messages
11
Location
Connecticut
NNID
Votega
Young Link's animations still seem largely similar to Link's with the main exceptions being dash attack and fair if they're the same as in Melee. He's also not very comparable to Toon Link outside of specials (yes, their up B's function the same) and a few normals (just jab, grab, dash attack, down smash, tilts, up air, and get-up/ledge attacks). I personally wouldn't mind minimal changes, since I just want HD Young Link. The possibility of his viability also excites me, as I never use him in tournament. As far as we know, just being notably smaller and having different movement may be enough to disqualify him as an echo fighter or it could be off limits for returning characters from Melee and Brawl. Feel free to roast me for anything I got wrong.
 

NintendoKnight

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Messages
1,735
Location
Climbing the mountain I made from a molehill
NNID
Nin-Knight
Also keep in mind that the term "Echo Fighter" is largely meaningless. Whether a particular fighter is an EF has zero impact on their viability. I mean, just look at Melee: Marth and Roy were effectively identical, but just their property variance resulted in one being almost top tier and one being almost bottom tier.
Correction: property variance is not what made one top tier and the other bottom tier. The thing with Melee Roy is that, unlike Marth, Roy's programming was high-level crap.

I mean, look at this:





In Melee, many of Roy's moves worked exactly like this example. Differences in stats and launch angles do not effect awful hitbox placements. It wasn't the property variance that made the difference; it was merely the fact that Roy was a poorly designed pile of garbage.

On the actual topic at hand. Young Link is that middle ground between Link and Toon Link. As Toon Link gets ever further from the adult Link, and as the adult Link becomes even more varied from his past incarnations, Young Link represents that Melee era, standing between the two other Links as his own character that is not identical to either character.

Also, the definition for Echo Fighter means that the movesets are completely identical, with just their properties being what separates them. Young Link is not 1-to-1 identical with either Link.
 
Last edited:

The Merc

Hyrule's "Light"
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
5,186
Location
Hyrule
Also, the definition for Echo Fighter means that the movesets are completely identical, with just their properties being what separates them. Young Link is not 1-to-1 identical with either Link.
Just to add to this statement, echo fighters also share the same if not basically identical hurtbox, such as that if you merged them to just being a Skin (such as Dark Pit) there would be no differnce or needing for adjusments. With Toon Link and Young Link, sure they are similar heights, but their proportion are not at all the same (Toon Link's head is basically the size of the Deku Shield)

:135:
 

PlasmWraith

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
80
In terms of playstyle the 3 Link seem (at least at this time) pretty different from each other.

Link's sword hitbox changes, lack of zair and tether grab, and the detonated bombs make him actually more of a swordfighter than a projectile based zoner. I can see future Ultimate Links setting up their bombs, then spacing out tilts and fairs until they can get a grab in to their bombs, making him actually kinda Duck Hunt-like, except slower and with more kill potential.

Toon Link is very floaty, in Sm4sh he was played mostly in the air throwing out bombs and boomerangs and trying to get short hard-hitting combos out of them, as well as zoning out with zairs and only really grabbing for a kill throw. He's also even more different from the other Links in Ultimate with his new f-smash, which is a single strong hit, looking from the speed this could help is kill potential. I'd like it if they work more of his strength in to his projectiles on release.

Young Link, if we assume he's brought in from Melee more or less as is but taking new physics in to account, is less floaty than Toon Link but just as fast, he also has a sex kick, a swift and combo-able bair, a bouncing dair, a rapid jab, multi-hit f-smash and up-smash, a good d-throw for combos, and a much faster dash attack. This sets him up to be a very combo based character that focuses less on projectiles for their game plan, as well as being very ground-based in comparison to Toon Link. I hope they give his nair really low landing lag and improve the speed of his d-tilt on his release.
 

FooltheFlames

needs hugs~<3
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
951
Location
Ashley's Haunted Mansion!
Heck no he's not gonna be an echo fighter! All of the Links may share the same special moves, but they all have different properties! And when it comes to aerial attacks, that's where they're going to differ the most. Take the dair moves for example. Link and and Tink's will spike at the initial start up, Tink shoots down so far he wont be able to recover off stage, while Link can hop with it. Young Link however is going to have that UBER powerful vertical launcher I've been missing since the 64/Melee/Brawl days~ although he may keep his secret fire spike from the hit box on his head and not the sword.. Young Link will also probably be the only one of them that can reliably juggle with shorthop uair; if he's anything like Melee version, which he should be. I don't know about his grounded B-up, since Tink has had his for a long while.. Maybe Young Link will get the basic one you can't charge with that awesome semi-spike at the tip! :grin: That would be the greatest!!
 

Nintykid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
88
I'm shocked that no one brought up the fact that Young Link has an infinite while we haven't seen TLink or Adult Link do any of that
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
On the actual topic at hand. Young Link is that middle ground between Link and Toon Link. As Toon Link gets ever further from the adult Link, and as the adult Link becomes even more varied from his past incarnations, Young Link represents that Melee era, standing between the two other Links as his own character that is not identical to either character.

Also, the definition for Echo Fighter means that the movesets are completely identical, with just their properties being what separates them. Young Link is not 1-to-1 identical with either Link.
Nailed it
I'm shocked that no one brought up the fact that Young Link has an infinite while we haven't seen TLink or Adult Link do any of that
Am I the only one who is delighted to see his infinite jab as a reference to Smash 64 Link? Was I the only one who thought that? Ok.
 

The Merc

Hyrule's "Light"
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
5,186
Location
Hyrule
Am I the only one who is delighted to see his infinite jab as a reference to Smash 64 Link? Was I the only one who thought that? Ok.
Well he did have it in Melee.

Also the animation has changed from a series of stabs to a series of slashes

:135:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Well he did have it in Melee.

Also the animation has changed from a series of stabs to a series of slashes

:135:
Oh, well either way it's nice to see it back. Makes more sense for Young Link anyway. Actually...it could have made sense for BotW link too but oh well
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Maikou

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
844
Location
Wondering when I was an edgelord.
Oh, well either way it's nice to see it back. Makes more sense for Young Link anyway. Actually...it could have made sense for BotW link too but oh well
It makes a lot of sense for BotW Link, but with two other Links in the game, they probably decided against it to emphasize the differences between them and Young Link. I'm kind of annoyed they changed it to a series of slashes though, as the stabs were part of both Young and adult Link's jabs in Melee and they featured in Soul Calibur. Come to think of it, that might've been the way to go to emphasize their differences. BotW Link's Flurry Rush is a wild series of slashes, but the Hero of Time always did super fast stabs and finished Ganon with a powerful thrust attack. Would've been useful for adult Link and kept Young Link faithful to Melee while still being different.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,902
Location
Colorado
Correction: property variance is not what made one top tier and the other bottom tier. The thing with Melee Roy is that, unlike Marth, Roy's programming was high-level crap.

I mean, look at this:



They ran out of hitboxes after programing Marth's grab.
Heck no he's not gonna be an echo fighter! All of the Links may share the same special moves, but they all have different properties! And when it comes to aerial attacks, that's where they're going to differ the most. Take the dair moves for example. Link and and Tink's will spike at the initial start up, Tink shoots down so far he wont be able to recover off stage, while Link can hop with it. Young Link however is going to have that UBER powerful vertical launcher I've been missing since the 64/Melee/Brawl days~ although he may keep his secret fire spike from the hit box on his head and not the sword.. Young Link will also probably be the only one of them that can reliably juggle with shorthop uair; if he's anything like Melee version, which he should be. I don't know about his grounded B-up, since Tink has had his for a long while.. Maybe Young Link will get the basic one you can't charge with that awesome semi-spike at the tip! :grin: That would be the greatest!!
Personally I hate the Dair spikes. Brawl Link's Dair was amazing; it was like an aerial Usmash. Frame 1 Dair-ing platform landings for <80% kills was the best feeling ever.
 

FooltheFlames

needs hugs~<3
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
951
Location
Ashley's Haunted Mansion!
Personally I hate the Dair spikes. Brawl Link's Dair was amazing; it was like an aerial Usmash. Frame 1 Dair-ing platform landings for <80% kills was the best feeling ever.
It was like that in 64 and Melee as well. So I strongly suspect Young Link is going to have that brawl Link Dair back that you love so much ^^ (PS: I miss it too! :c)
 

Erimir

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 24, 2001
Messages
1,732
Location
DC
3DS FC
3823-8583-9137
Pretty easy to list the differences... Present tense if we've seen the move in SSBU, past tense based on most recent appearance

Toon Link and Young Link (henceforth T and Y, vs. Link as L) have different models with different hurtboxes
T has a unique F-smash, while Y has the same basic movement as L
T had a single hit U-smash, while Y has the three hit U-smash like L
T had unique f-air, b-air and n-air, while Y's were similar to L's
T had a stall-and-fall d-air, while Y's was similar to L's
Y has a jab infinite, while T and L have had fairly similar jab combos (although since L's final hit was changed, they may be less similar now)
Y has fire arrows, unlike L neither has item arrows that can be used for double shot arrows
Presumably each bow has different speed and trajectory properties as well
Y and T's bombs have slightly different properties (obviously L's bombs are quite different now)
Presumably they will have at least slightly different weight and speed and range (sword and Hookshot length)
Presumably they will have different damage and knockback properties on their various moves

Most importantly: we haven't seen their full movesets. We don't know what changes have been made. Their aerials were not shown at all in their character videos (it's possible they're somewhere in all the Nintendo Direct footage, but...). I would not be the least surprised to see more changes to both characters. I bet Tink has a new f-smash because of Yink's return, for example.

Compare this to Lucina or Dark Pit:
With noted exceptions below: identical size, weight, movement speed, animations, damage, knockback, trajectory, etc.

Lucina is slightly shorter
She doesn't have the tipper mechanic on any attacks, with damage adjusted to compensate (i.e. a Lucina hit is stronger than Marth sourspot but weaker than Marth tipper)
Slight differences on a couple standard attacks and Shield Breaker (but identical animations and no difference in damage aside from tipper-related changes)
Only changes seen to Lucina so far have been echoing Marth's changes (faster Dancing Blade, ability to angle Shield Breaker, changes to jab), which suggests we likely won't see any significant decloning due to changes to Marth OR Lucina from Smash 4.

Dark Pit has a unique Final Smash
Dark Pit's Electroshock arm has different damage, knockback, trajectory from Upperdash Arm and an electric effect
Dark Pit's Silver Bow has different speed, damage, knockback, maneuverability
Slight differences on a couple standard attacks (but same damage and animations)

While there is some point that would be ambiguous between Echo and not Echo, it is pretty clear that Toon Link and Young Link are significantly more different from each other than Lucina and Dark Pit are from their source characters.
 

1FC0

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
1,819
Toon Link is played by little boys and Young Link by real men.
 
Top Bottom