No more top tiers

[Uair]

The way the smash64 community has advanced it appears to me Tiers don't exist, because unlike in Melee or brawl hacks you don't have any characters that are quite literally unplayable, with Melee it being pichu. In smash64 with any character you can consistently 0 to death any other character. Even versus pikachu a character like ness for example can still 0 to death pikachu if the player does it right. Pikachu's uair makes him unapproachable from the ground in most cases and his aerials make it so you can't approach from the top front or bottom because all of pikachu's aerials out prioritize ness'. Therefor in a typical smash game you'd consider ness bottom tier because it's so hard for him to approach pikachu in theory, however ness also can just as easily punish pikachu and kill him. The same applies to any character in any matchup.
Hens why I believe the Tier system has never been accurate at all aside from tallying up the smashboards community opinions of who's playing who the most.

Counter picks, do exist to an extent. But it becomes very vague unless you're making some kind of comparison to other characters. Such as ness not being able to recover on saffron, or jiggly being gimped by fox.

I believe we should abolish the tier system, so nobody can complain about what character has the most advantage due to his tier, and instead focus on the matchups instead and counterpicks.

 

[Grahamaglam]

I disagree.

 

[caneut]

smasherx shut up

 

[Uair]

I disagree.

I disagree with you then.

So together we both agree on something.

 

[B Link]

I agree about abolishing the tier list. It does nothing productive really. All it does do is oversimplify the game and act as a reference for losing johns. Also so many people disagree on it so why is there a standard one? Lol.

There definitely are characters who are better than others in certain match ups but Tier Lists don't expound on the match ups themselves. So some people might think that Ness, for example, is one's worst option against all characters, which probably isn't true.

 

[Capos]

All it does do is oversimplify the game and act as a reference for losing johns.

Especially since many of the people who do this are amateur level, which means that even though they take it as the word of god, it is incompletely inapplicable to their skill level.

 

[Shears]

I never thought I would like a smasherx post or agree with him ever in my life, until now. There is no tier list. All characters are viable. This game is far too underdeveloped for anyone to even begin saying a certain character can't win a matchup.

 

[Morin0]

I never thought I would like a smasherx post or agree with him ever in my life, until now. There is no tier list. All characters are viable. This game is far too underdeveloped for anyone to even begin saying a certain character can't win a matchup.

Nah. There's a tier list. There are objective truths why someone like Ness or Link suck like their recovery being awful and how they stack up against, say, Pikachu. However, it's up to the players if they let the tier list dictate who they play or how they play. Personally, I acknowledge the tier list, but I don't care too much about it outside of it being a reference.

One of my favorite videos is Kefit getting absolutely destroyed by Nangoku on Dream Land as Ness, and then Kefit counterpicking Nangoku, a Ness player, to Hyrule.

 

[Shears]

Nah. There's a tier list. There are objective truths why someone like Ness or Link suck like their recovery being awful and how they stack up against, say, Pikachu. However, it's up to the players if they let the tier list dictate who they play or how they play. Personally, I acknowledge the tier list, but I don't care too much about it outside of it being a reference.

One of my favorite videos is Kefit getting absolutely destroyed by Nangoku on Dream Land as Ness, and then Kefit counterpicking Nangoku, a Ness player, to Hyrule.

There is much more to a player than recovery. I hate when people try to generalize a characters ability by how good their recovery is. A tier list is not a recovery list so people need to stop making it out to be one. A tier list also isn't a list of how good each person is with a character. Scranbob21 has a better pikachu than link doesn't make pikachu better because of that. How easy a character is to master doesn't make up a tier list either. There is no tier list, there is just an excuse list. Does recovery matter if you can never lose the neutral game? No, recovery doesn't matter therefore it isn't a factor in the tier list. Does neutral game matter if you can never die and always recover? No, neutral game doesn't matter if you can't die therefore it isn't a factor in the tier list. As ridiculous as those two questions sound one is ignored when making tier lists and one is considered even though they both are equally valid if one is valid. Again, there is no tier list. You measure the objective metrics that allow you to make a tier list you feel good about, that gives you excuses, while ignoring objective metrics that unravel your list and the subjective elements to the game that exist whether or not you want to ignore them. Its incomplete inspection of the game that invents false stereotypes and myths that enables these terrible tier lists. "Woah Luigi upb kills jigglypuff at 30% on the top platform, Luigi totally wins that matchup" is a myth that ignores the fact that getting upb at 30% on top platform isn't free or easy, and chooses to ignore that jigglypuffs rest is equally as effective but much easier to setup and connect with. "Woah Link has the shortest recovery distance so he is clearly the worst because every time I get knocked off stage I die" is a myth that ignores the fact link has one of the best neutral games and should not be stuck in an edgeguard position in the first place. It might sound crazy but it might be possible that there is more to this game than what you or anyone building a tier list can imagine. To think your opinions are the epitome of 64 and that there can exist no other possibility that the game could be different than the extent of your understanding is like a kid asking "whats the largest number?" and you answering "a bazillion" and thinking you're right.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's simple. A tier list is supposed to list best character to worst character at the highest levels of the game. There's a reason why isai didn't stay at DK for the rest of G3. There's a reason why there's a bunch of pika, falcon, yoshi, and fox players at the top level. at the top level of play, who has the best MU spread? Pika, falcon, and yoshi?

Top 3 characters in the game. And it's the same as we go down on the list. Just because there's no unplayable characters in this game doesn't mean everyone was created equal.

 

[Morin0]

chill

recovery was just an example

 

[Uair]

Nah. There's a tier list. There are objective truths why someone like Ness or Link suck like their recovery being awful and how they stack up against, say, Pikachu. However, it's up to the players if they let the tier list dictate who they play or how they play. Personally, I acknowledge the tier list, but I don't care too much about it outside of it being a reference.

One of my favorite videos is Kefit getting absolutely destroyed by Nangoku on Dream Land as Ness, and then Kefit counterpicking Nangoku, a Ness player, to Hyrule.

Lol this is an anecdotal argument on certain character with no basis, Ness recovery is quite literally one of the best in the game, Link's recovery is worst out of all of the characters due to lack of actual distance and height he recovers but ness can recover from the edges of the map and still make it back. This is the whole point of getting rid of a tier list, because it's based on peoples personal experience.

We could measure characters recovery and come up with a sort of tier list saying A B C got best recovery while X Y Z have the worst. But even then it would still be specific to whatever map and sometimes matchup. You could say Pikachu has **** recovery because people predict where he's going to teleport, just like you can say ness' recovery sucks because it takes a few seconds to actually blast off and then you can't control your self until the end. Those two arguments are both equally irrelevant and anecdotal due to the fact they aren't measuring every aspect of the game. Certain characters like samus recover better upwards which obviously is punishable, Link has 0 upward recovery and very little distance recovery which is also punishable. The point is you can't justify saying any characters recovery sucks unless it's relative to the matchup which includes the map.

Further elaboration, Ness has 0 recovery on saffron unless its from the sides, same with mushroom kingdom. In that matchup yes ness recovery sucks. Ness on dreamland specifically is the map ness has some of the best recovery at due to Dreamland's slopes. If the matchup is ness on dreamland vs pikachu then ness has to recovery further away from the map or he's easily punished, if it's against link then ness has to smack edges/have perfect recovery(just like fox, but he needs it in every situation) because ness' ending recovery if not grabbing edge link will punish you from anywhere on the map, especially coming up off the slope left slope off the downward blast pushing you upward the slope which in a lot of cases is useful because you can cancel your blast basically and get a hold of the edge quicker.


Tier list doesn't exist, matchups do.

 

[Shears]

Lol this is an anecdotal argument on certain character with no basis, Ness recovery is quite literally one of the best in the game, Link's recovery is worst out of all of the characters due to lack of actual distance and height he recovers but ness can recover from the edges of the map and still make it back. This is the whole point of getting rid of a tier list, because it's based on peoples personal experience.

We could measure characters recovery and come up with a sort of tier list saying A B C got best recovery while X Y Z have the worst. But even then it would still be specific to whatever map and sometimes matchup. You could say Pikachu has **** recovery because people predict where he's going to teleport, just like you can say ness' recovery sucks because it takes a few seconds to actually blast off and then you can't control your self until the end. Those two arguments are both equally irrelevant and anecdotal due to the fact they aren't measuring every aspect of the game. Certain characters like samus recover better upwards which obviously is punishable, Link has 0 upward recovery and very little distance recovery which is also punishable. The point is you can't justify saying any characters recovery sucks unless it's relative to the matchup which includes the map.

Further elaboration, Ness has 0 recovery on saffron unless its from the sides, same with mushroom kingdom. In that matchup yes ness recovery sucks. Ness on dreamland specifically is the map ness has some of the best recovery at due to Dreamland's slopes. If the matchup is ness on dreamland vs pikachu then ness has to recovery further away from the map or he's easily punished, if it's against link then ness has to smack edges/have perfect recovery(just like fox, but he needs it in every situation) because ness' ending recovery if not grabbing edge link will punish you from anywhere on the map, especially coming up off the slope left slope off the downward blast pushing you upward the slope which in a lot of cases is useful because you can cancel your blast basically and get a hold of the edge quicker.


Tier list doesn't exist, matchups do.

Ness can recover on Saffron in between the towers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/USAssb64/permalink/1727590190844357/

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Tier list doesn't exist, matchups do.

Who ever has the best MU spread is the best character.

 

[Shears]

Who ever has the best MU spread is the best character.

I don't think you understand matchup spreads. Tell me oh wise one, what are the matchup spreads for 64?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I don't think you understand matchup spreads. Tell me oh wise one, what are the matchup spreads for 64?

I don't know all of Them, but I know who would probably have the best ones (either falcon, pika, or yoshi to place my prediction on best MU spread). It's silly to say everyone is created equally.

 

[Shears]

I don't know all of Them, but I know who would probably have the best ones (either falcon, pika, or yoshi to place my prediction on best MU spread). It's silly to say everyone is created equally.

Whatever you've read about matchup spreads is wrong. I assume you read about tier lists, matchup charts, etc. in 64 and assumed it was made by a bunch of top players who knew what they were talking about, had a good panel and voted, discussed at length, and came to an objective truth of the game accurately like it probably happens in the other games? Unfortunately that is wrong, the tier lists you read, the matchup charts you didn't memorize, were all created by a bunch of random scrubs submitting their opinions and someone averaging them. The tier lists and matchup charts you see is how the game looks when played at a low-mediocre level. The only thing older and more unsolved than SSB64 is stonehenge.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Whatever you've read about matchup spreads is wrong. I assume you read about tier lists, matchup charts, etc. in 64 and assumed it was made by a bunch of top players who knew what they were talking about, had a good panel and voted, discussed at length, and came to an objective truth of the game accurately like it probably happens in the other games? Unfortunately that is wrong, the tier lists you read, the matchup charts you didn't memorize, were all created by a bunch of random scrubs submitting their opinions and someone averaging them. The tier lists and matchup charts you see is how the game looks when played at a low-mediocre level. The only thing older and more unsolved than SSB64 is stonehenge.

I guess kerokeroppi is a scrub lol.

Oh and characters aren't created equally. There's gonna be a worst and best character no matter how balanced the game is. According to Kero, falcon has the best punish game by far with top 3-ish neutral game which leads him into being top 2 at least.

 

[Uair]

I guess kerokeroppi is a scrub lol.

Oh and characters aren't created equally. There's gonna be a worst and best character no matter how balanced the game is. According to Kero, falcon has the best punish game by far with top 3-ish neutral game which leads him into being top 2 at least.

Let's not turn this into name shaming, the fact remains tiers don't exist, and them being portrayed as accurate only causes conflict within the community. Falcon obviously is easy to approach people and defend with because of his speed and upsmash priority, the punishment comes in with airs because all of falcon's airs are huge hitboxes and relatively fast. You arguing Falcon is top tier because of that is like me arguing Ness is top tier because he can easily combo any character and has backwards accelerating movement which is extremely useful because you're moving across distance fast while your hitbox is up. Insane character, should be top tier all things considered. However due to the facts shears stated ness dropped a long time ago. People stoppd using him, and in recent years people started using yoshi so he went up, and before that people started using fox a lot then he became top tier overthrowing kirby even.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Let's not turn this into name shaming, the fact remains tiers don't exist, and them being portrayed as accurate only causes conflict within the community. Falcon obviously is easy to approach people and defend with because of his speed and upsmash priority, the punishment comes in with airs because all of falcon's airs are huge hitboxes and relatively fast. You arguing Falcon is top tier because of that is like me arguing Ness is top tier because he can easily combo any character and has backwards accelerating movement which is extremely useful because you're moving across distance fast while your hitbox is up. Insane character, should be top tier all things considered. However due to the facts shears stated ness dropped a long time ago. People stoppd using him, and in recent years people started using yoshi so he went up, and before that people started using fox a lot then he became top tier overthrowing kirby even.

Except
Except Falcon's mobility, big hitboxes, and best punish in the game makes him top tier. Ness' small range and poor speed makes his neutral crappy; he's similar to luigi in that regard. Pika is top tier because of best neutral in the game (Big hitboxes on everything, speed), best recovery (which makes him very forgiving when it comes to mistakes. QA has invincibility frames and is fast and has a ton of possible routes to go), and above-average punish game.


Tiers not existing is the same thing as saying every character is created equally. Both statements are false and have been proven false by history. Every competitive video game (even ones that hasn't created a tier list) has options unequally created.

 

[Grahamaglam]

Pika's tail beats luigi.
No fighting games have tier lists because you could just neutral game your way to victory.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Pika's tail beats luigi.
No fighting games have tier lists because toy could just neutral game your way to victory.

?????? What are you saying

 

[Grahamaglam]

Pika's tail beats luigi.
No fighting games have tier lists because you could just neutral game your way to victory.

(I'm joking by making a ridiculous claim. I'm serious about one of them)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ohh I get it

 

[NTA]

Serious discussions on smash boards? Wtf

 

[Uair]

Pika's tail beats luigi.
No fighting games have tier lists because you could just neutral game your way to victory.

grab, punch, kick, even headbutt, all forms of domestic violence work on pika.

Serious discussions on smash boards? Wtf

Except
Except Falcon's mobility, big hitboxes, and best punish in the game makes him top tier. Ness' small range and poor speed makes his neutral crappy; he's similar to luigi in that regard. Pika is top tier because of best neutral in the game (Big hitboxes on everything, speed), best recovery (which makes him very forgiving when it comes to mistakes. QA has invincibility frames and is fast and has a ton of possible routes to go), and above-average punish game.


Tiers not existing is the same thing as saying every character is created equally. Both statements are false and have been proven false by history. Every competitive video game (even ones that hasn't created a tier list) has options unequally created.

Ness is a lot faster than luigi, have you seen his dtilts? You don't know what you're talking about because you don't know how ness is played. Ness is unique towards every other character in the fact his DJC can allow him to maintain X speed during an attack. One of the most basic and greatest aspects about using ness is how much space he can cover with his hitbox using djc. He's fast relative to other characters, his uair, fair and nair are the main reason why ness is top tier or used to be top tier is because he was so easy to punish with just like falcon is. Anybody who plays with ness enough for learn this, ness like falcon is one of the easier characters to punish with. The main difference in their skill levels is how ness has super recovery at the expansive of time and control. Ultimately ness has better recovery capabilities than falcon but he isn't as fast to recover in most situations.

I'm not stating every character is equal, what I am stating is the way in which people play video games every character is competitively equal. Every character has the same capabilities, there is no physical limitations to any character. They can all quite literally take someone from 0 to death without human di breaking it. As far as I know and many other "good" players know, DK is the only character to be able to do this on every character 100% with no di breakable, but it's probably possibly in a more less limited way that every character can 0 to death every character with human/kb di.

 

[Grahamaglam]

I'm not stating every character is equal

Every character has the same capabilities

LOL

If you think that the tier list should be based upon how the game would be played at the highest level in theory, you're argument falls apart. If people do reach the highest levels of smash in theory, then we can eliminate recoveries, edgeguards, and combo abilities all together because those should always be executed perfectly in every scenario. What's left? The neutral game.

And as you said for yourself:

Pikachu's uair makes him unapproachable from the ground in most cases and his aerials make it so you can't approach from the top front or bottom because all of pikachu's aerials out prioritize ness'

So if the pika player in unapproachable, how is ness supposed to win the neutral and punish pika like you theorized? Would the pika player always win against ness because he can't approach? (Keep in mind that this is the highest level of smash and neither player makes mistakes) Wouldn't that make pika a better character in theory? Couldn't you do this for every matchup?

Serious discussions on smash boards? Wtf

This was a troll post from the start.

 

[caneut]

stop arguing with smasherx please, he is a troll

 

[Uair]

LOL

If you think that the tier list should be based upon how the game would be played at the highest level in theory, you're argument falls apart. If people do reach the highest levels of smash in theory, then we can eliminate recoveries, edgeguards, and combo abilities all together because those should always be executed perfectly in every scenario. What's left? The neutral game.

And as you said for yourself:

So if the pika player in unapproachable, how is ness supposed to win the neutral and punish pika like you theorized? Would the pika player always win against ness because he can't approach? (Keep in mind that this is the highest level of smash and neither player makes mistakes) Wouldn't that make pika a better character in theory? Couldn't you do this for every matchup?


This was a troll post from the start.

I was stating reasons why a character on the tier list is wrongly positioned, the very point of it correlates with my thread. You seemed to have missed the underlining point and focused solely on analyzing the post argumentively which made you come to an irrelevant conclusion. Skill level doesn't matter, if you play with a certain character there are certain things you can do and can't do. I explained how just because pika seems best overall it doesn't apply because other characters have their own strengths which can be used to punish any character even ones with big fast hitboxes. The argument simply was taking the same logic as presented and using it against him. As you see he liked your post because he too failed to grasp what I was indirectly saying by applying his logic of tier lists to characters that should respectably be higher.

stop arguing with smasherx please, he is a troll

This is why republicans elected donald trump right? If anyone is a troll here it's you.

 

[Grahamaglam]

Is your argument there is no tier list because you can theoretically win with any character? Why should 64 abolish their tier list but not melee? I've seen pichu beat some high tiers in tournament before. Is that proof that melee has no real tier list either?

 

[Uair]

Is your argument there is no tier list because you can theoretically win with any character? Why should 64 abolish their tier list but not melee? I've seen pichu beat some high tiers in tournament before. Is that proof that melee has no real tier list either?

Not just win, like you so elegantly tried to use as a crutch, this game has a significant skill gap, and hens forth certain players playing in certain ways means they have learned the game in such a way they can exploit things to the up most possible if they absolutely try to. You're dismissing the fact that generalization of characters is not refuted by players playing... I mean, you're just bringing up further anecdotal examples and logic to an already pointed out non-subjective argument. You're literally not comprehending what is being said, I'm not sure what else to elaborate on besides Smash64 being unique in the fact it can be exploited in such a way with any character than you can dominate any other character relative to a general nubcake perspective (even if nubcake stands for the best players), Arguing M2K ***** noobs with pikchu is not valid because pichu is unusable competitively by anyone in melee.

This is exactly what makes smash64 unique to other non-smash64 games. It is fundamental, tiers in this community are based on whoever plays who the most without consideration of the characters specific capabilities on even the only map available. The tier list isn't based on matchups but instead peoples opinions because fluctuated uncertain matchups are apparently consistently changing among various players. If you want a realistic tier list you have to come up with a super AI that generates the best possible outcome for a billion possibilities ahead. This would break down into character vs character in position vs position on whichever map. The implications of having a tier list in them self go far beyond that of what humans can do.

 

[Grahamaglam]

You don't understand the function of a tier list.

 

[Uair]

You don't understand the function of a tier list.

I do, that's why I understand why smash64's tier list is bad. With that being said, it shouldn't exist. The point of a tier list is to determine which character has the most advantage compared to every other character, but the fact is there is advantages in so many different ways depending on every matchup that no one character has game breaking capabilities. The common misconception is Pikachu is top tier because of huge hitboxes, or kirby is because of viability. The fact is both of those characters get killed by a jigglypuff utilt at 20% on dreamland. Pikachu can be punished badly because of his recovery, kirby can be killed easily because of his weight. There is more than enough factors to make any tier list inaccurate just by the simply fact it does not consider all things relative to the character's capability.

 

[Shears]

Even Kero will admit he doesn't fully understand everything about this game and isn't qualified to make an accurate tier list for the future of this game so using kero as an example is bad, because yeah, kero is a scrub. Keros list is just a reflection of how the game is being played now with some near future adaptations that are taking place but the depth of this game extends beyond keros short term predictions and current understanding. Same with every other player. You want some interesting statistics. Since major console tournaments for 64 began, Isai (a player you probably think is an untouchable god because you watched a documentary about melee) is 0-1 with pikachu in tournament while his link, yoshi, mario, puff, and fox all have numerous wins at majors. The "best" player in the world is unvictorious with the "best" character in the game. Again, there is no tier list.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Even Kero will admit he doesn't fully understand everything about this game and isn't qualified to make an accurate tier list for the future of this game so using kero as an example is bad, because yeah, kero is a scrub. Keros list is just a reflection of how the game is being played now with some near future adaptations that are taking place but the depth of this game extends beyond keros short term predictions and current understanding. Same with every other player. You want some interesting statistics. Since major console tournaments for 64 began, Isai (a player you probably think is an untouchable god because you watched a documentary about melee) is 0-1 with pikachu in tournament while his link, yoshi, mario, puff, and fox all have numerous wins at majors. The "best" player in the world is unvictorious with the "best" character in the game. Again, there is no tier list.

Are you talking about me (since you brought up Kero and I talked about him, Ima assume it)?

Idk what gave you the idea that I worship isai because I watched the melee documentary (never watched it, nor do I worship isai). Wario is the best player and he showed it by 3-0ing boom (though boom did get a bracket reset on'em).

Kero's tier list may be inaccurate in the future, but it's very accurate in the present, as falcon, yoshi, pika, Kirby, and fox has been doing a lot Of damage from the previous events. Tier list are supposed to represent the best character down to the worst from based on the evidence and theory that surrounds it. It's accurate until proven inaccurate. And what you guys don't understand is that the MU spread of each character plays a factor too (look at your 64 index that sports a tier list BASED on the character's MU spread). That's what every fighting game's tier list takes into an account, regardless if it's a counterpick-based fighter or not. Just because every character has a bad MU doesn't mean they're all equal.

And again, there's never been a competitive game where the charters are 100% equal, no developer has the supernatural mental prediction, nor the Godlike perspection to deduce how to make all characters competitively viable.

 

[Shears]

(look at your 64 index that sports a tier list BASED on the character's MU spread)

This is the pervasive problem that keeps creating false stereotypes and myths about this game. That isn't my index, that isn't Kero's index, that isn't the index regarded as the utmost official authority on information for SSB64 by the greater competitive community. Its a persons thread on a forum that has been abandoned by most. The compilation of that thread was done several years ago before most tech was even being utilized in competitive play and by people who have been proven to not be that great at the game. That MU chart is not accurate, and neither is the tier list based off of it. You think because melee is well developed that 64 must be too because its older. Melee is way more developed than 64 is and we're barely beginning to scratch the surface.

That index is a great starting point for many noobs and gives you an idea about the game played at a mediocre level good enough to be mildly competitive, but it should not be taken as official.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This is the pervasive problem that keeps creating false stereotypes and myths about this game. That isn't my index, that isn't Kero's index, that isn't the index regarded as the utmost official authority on information for SSB64 by the greater competitive community. Its a persons thread on a forum that has been abandoned by most. The compilation of that thread was done several years ago before most tech was even being utilized in competitive play and by people who have been proven to not be that great at the game. That MU chart is not accurate, and neither is the tier list based off of it. You think because melee is well developed that 64 must be too because its older. Melee is way more developed than 64 is and we're barely beginning to scratch the surface.

That index is a great starting point for many noobs and gives you an idea about the game played at a mediocre level good enough to be mildly competitive, but it should not be taken as official.

You're missing the point. Regardless of its accuracy, it still takes in other variables outside of personal perceptions like MU spread, Results, etc... Saying a tier list doesn't exist, yet MU spreads do, is a weird statement based on that example. Other examples include the melee tier list, SF2CE, ST, WHP, and other fighting games

 

[Uair]

You're missing the point. Regardless of its accuracy, it still takes in other variables outside of personal perceptions like MU spread, Results, etc... Saying a tier list doesn't exist, yet MU spreads do, is a weird statement based on that example. Other examples include the melee tier list, SF2CE, ST, WHP, and other fighting games

That is anecdotal therefor personal perception. Tier's don't exist because we aren't advance enough to determine these things, at least not yet. Our literal intelligence is not capable of formulating a tier list currently. You can only go by anecdotal arguments, which is opinions, and opinions hold no basis in factual defining of a characters viability.

 

[caneut]

hey guys, uair is smasherx, he is a known troll in the ssb64 community.

whether he believes in what he is arguing right now or not, you need to stop interacting with him, it's not good for you.

 

[Shears]

You're missing the point. Regardless of its accuracy, it still takes in other variables outside of personal perceptions like MU spread, Results, etc... Saying a tier list doesn't exist, yet MU spreads do, is a weird statement based on that example. Other examples include the melee tier list, SF2CE, ST, WHP, and other fighting games

I never said MU spreads exist. Any character can beat any character. You can also have MU spreads without having a tier list lol. Its called Rock Paper Scissors. Rock has 100-0 matchup vs Scissors and Paper has a 100-0 matchup vs Rock, all while Scissors has a 100-0 matchup vs Paper. Are you going to tell me RPS aren't all in the same tier?

Regardless, you must be missing my point. No one is good enough to even begin thinking about a matchup spread chart nevermind a tier list. At the base level no one knows anything about this game and its severely underdeveloped. This game is 2 years old, go look at melees tier list 2 years after it came out and look at it now. Hell, that tier list has changed a **** ton from 2008 to now. Every year everyone thought that tier list was the definitive tier list, and the next year they always found out they were wrong and people like you who argued it faithfully looked like fools. Same happens in 64 and same will continue to happen. The tier list was created so melee fanboys had something to relate to in 64 and give some ****ty half assed explanation of how this game works. Its made so people can have excuses instead of figuring out solutions and truly understanding the game. There is no tier list, only an excuse list.

For reference: Changes in melee tier list https://blog.forrestthewoods.com/the-unbalanced-design-of-super-smash-brothers-3fbc9b346e15