Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hadokeyblade]

I know I gas up Nintendo's retro/obscure/niche series for Smash a lot, but aside from the reason of genuinely wanting them in Smash, I'm in no way opposed to 3rd parties that fall under a similar label, and Namco is no exception!

I'd be more than fine with Reiji and Xiaomu, Taizo Hori, Tobi Masuyo, Susumu Hori, Valkyrie, Lloyd/Yuri/Cress/Stahn (Admittedly, NxC bias going on for Stahn's part), Bravoman, Wonder Momo, Tarosuke, Taira no Kagekiyo, Pino and Acha, Namuko (Namco Heroine) Hiromi Tengenji, Mappy, Reiko Nagase/Ai Fukami, Leila, Metro-Cross Runner, The Prince, Klonoa, Wagan, Gil, Ki, KOS-MOS, Waya-Hime, Red Baron and Blue Max, Richard Miller, Dr. Don and Dr. Dan, Albatross, Mitsurugi, Taki, Clovis, and even Rick Taylor!

And on the Bandai side of Bandainamco there's Digimon, .Hack and SRWOG.

Which unfortunately don't overlap with the companies other properties that often.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Yup. Luigi was a cooler Mario at one point. And he had the hidden unlock able character persona going for him.

A cooler Mario sound like a paradox to me.

Also in Smash pre-brawl, he was more "Mario but whaaacky". Then again he still retained some of that idendity from brawl onward.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I'm pretty sure Luigi's only personality trait pre Luigi's mansion was "I want to be like my brother Mario!" And not much else.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Aside from the intro of Mario Tennis 64 where he point blank tells Waluigi "Luigi not afraid" maybe, I don't think Luigi has ever been a "cooler Mario". He's either exactly the same in the platformers or kind of a goofball like in Mario Party or Smash 64. And even in Mario 2, he's kinda goofy there IMO, since his higher jump comes from a little flutter kick.

Unless of course we attribute cooler as in like personally cooler like "I like him more in those games" instead of cooler as in "He acts cooler than Mario".

 

[fogbadge]

Huh we are actually having a discussion on the changes to Luigi’s personality. Well it makes a change from reboot/port

 

[Sucumbio]

I strictly remember Luigi being the darker half of the duo due to living in Mario's shadow and well before Luigi's Mansion, like during the early days but I can't for the life of me remember why, maybe a Nintendo Power article?

 

[Kirbeh]

Can't say I'm a fan of the Wapeach design, but I'd be down for them revisiting the idea at some point.

Luigi's Mansion and WarioWare ruining their titular characters is one of the most bizarre takes I've seen. This feels more like developing a head canon and being disappointed it was later contradicted by actual canon.

In Wario's case, he's pretty much exactly the same. I can get preference for the Land games, I want those back too, but where's this idea that Ware is suddenly too narrative driven? Every game is Wario and friends make micro games for a quick buck.

And Luigi is still a cooler Mario.

 

[Will]

Yup. Luigi was a cooler Mario at one point. And he had the hidden unlock able character persona going for him.

I disagree. Do you not remember Mama Luigi?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Wario was seen as your typical treasure hunter early on by people who didn't look deeper than the cover art.

So when they started leaning in more on his actual character in later games it gave those same people whiplash.

 

[UserKev]

I disagree. Do you not remember Mama Luigi?

I don't like Luigi being associated with the Poltergeist vacuum, which Smash is clearly establishing. Mama Luigi is at least still purely Luigi. To me at least. The Luigi's Mansion persona, it just look degrading. And overall needless.

 

[Kirbeh]

Wario was seen as your typical treasure hunter early on by people who didn't look deeper than the cover art.

So when they started leaning in more on his actual character in later games it gave those same people whiplash.

I suppose, to be fair to those that grew up on the land games, those traits didn't really crop up in the actual game. Plus you didn't see them utilized in Mario spinoffs back then either.

If we did get a Wario Land sequel, I'd be right there with them hoping for those elements to be toned down, but I don't think they ruin his character.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I don't like Luigi being associated with the Poltergeist vacuum, which Smash is clearly establishing. Mama Luigi is at least still purely Luigi. To me at least. The Luigi's Mansion persona, it just look degrading. And overall needless.

I'm not really sure how his personality now is degrading considering Luigi's Mansion has him terrified, but still very capable when push comes to shove and more than willing to overcome his fears in order to save the people he cares about.

He's also been using the Poltergust on and off in spin-offs since the original Luigi's Mansion (defensive Power Shot in Power Tennis, one of the karts in Mario Kart DS and Tour, its appearance in Superstar Saga), so Smash doing this isn't some new thing.

 

[SPEN18]

Also, her name should be deach. Just like Waluigi shoulda been called 7uigi!

To get from "M" to "W" for Wario, you could either rotate the "M" 180 degrees OR you could reflect it across a horizontal axis. Which were they thinking when Wario was first conceived?

Well, the symbol for Waluigi is obtained by reflecting the "L" across a horizontal axis, not by rotating it 180 degrees.

So, if we're going to be consistent, then obviously "Wa"-Peach should be "beach."

BUT we can argue further than just consistency. A rotation is an orientation-preserving transformation while a reflection is orientation-reversing; clearly we'd like our Wario to be oriented opposite to Mario, so we could have ruled out the rotation from the beginning. This is also why your "deach" and "7uigi" make less sense, since rotating the "P" and "L" maintains orientation.

For "Wa"-Luigi, the reflected "L" is actually a capital gamma. But if we're going to stick to the Latin alphabet, then since "gamma" starts with "g" and we also prefer to stick to capital letters, the best they could have done for his name is probably "Guigi."

The most immediate implication of this is that Gooigi, who came later than our "Wa"-Luigi, will have to be retconned out of existence, as there's no way we should allow two characters with homophonous names, like "Guigi" and "Gooigi." Unless we allow some alternate amalgamation of "Luigi" and "goo," such as "Luigoo," but I believe that to be an abomination.

...

I'm sorry.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

WaPeach should not be appearing in games sooner than Eario:

 

[Louie G.]

I don't like Luigi being associated with the Poltergeist vacuum, which Smash is clearly establishing.

I would argue that if anything Smash has actually been pretty hesitant to incorporate these elements in a meaningful way, with the Final Smash change being obvious and unintrusive and Luigi's only core moveset reference to the Poltergust being his grab. Compared to how characters like Pit or Link have experienced drastic changes in response to significant new releases, Luigi still has most of the same moves he's had since Melee.

I don't have a problem with this, I kind of prefer it to be honest. I prefer Luigi to be a wackier take on Mario's moveset. I'm just acknowledging that Smash isn't really establishing anything too different right now. It's different than like... Bowser Jr. and the Clown Car where you can make a case for Smash influencing its presence in other Mario games. Luigi's Mansion has been a defining aspect of Luigi for years and Smash has remained pretty light on it in comparison. We'll see how that holds up next game, I suppose.

 

[Kirbeh]

To get from "M" to "W" for Wario, you could either rotate the "M" 180 degrees OR you could reflect it across a horizontal axis. Which were they thinking when Wario was first conceived?

Well, the symbol for Waluigi is obtained by reflecting the "L" across a horizontal axis, not by rotating it 180 degrees.

So, if we're going to be consistent, then obviously "Wa"-Peach should be "beach."

BUT we can argue further than just consistency. A rotation is an orientation-preserving transformation while a reflection is orientation-reversing; clearly we'd like our Wario to be oriented opposite to Mario, so we could have ruled out the rotation from the beginning. This is also why your "deach" and "7uigi" make less sense, since rotating the "P" and "L" maintains orientation.

For "Wa"-Luigi, the reflected "L" is actually a capital gamma. But if we're going to stick to the Latin alphabet, then since "gamma" starts with "g" and we want to stick to capital letters, the best they could have done for his name is probably "Guigi."

The most immediate implication of this is that Gooigi, who came later than our "Wa"-Luigi, will have to be retconned out of existence, as there's no way we should allow two characters with homophonous names, like "Guigi" and "Gooigi." Unless we allow some alternate amalgamation of "Luigi" and "goo," such as "Luigoo," but I believe that to be an abomination.

...

I'm sorry.

I mean, flipping the M to a W just happened to work out because they took the"wa" from warui. Then the L flip was just to continue the gag on Waluigi's hat.

I don't think that that would/should affect the name of a potential "Wapeach." I don't think they even necessarily have to with Wapeach as the name either, that was just the idea for the concept as a whole. Warui Piichi = Bad Peach.

I kinda wonder what could work if you try using the Japanese words for rotten or spoiled instead? Like rotten peach or spoiled to refer both to a spoiled peach and a spoiled brat.

 

[HyperSomari64]

For "Wa"-Luigi, the reflected "L" is actually a capital gamma. But if we're going to stick to the Latin alphabet, then since "gamma" starts with "g" and we want to stick to capital letters, the best they could have done for his name is probably "Guigi."

Gammauigi sounds cooler.

 

[Kirbeh]

Gammauigi sounds cooler.

All I can think of now is E102 Gamma with a mustache.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Mario? Who's Mario?
Wario's true rival should be called "Peace-io".
And Nintendo doesn't want to make it a reality. Come on!

 

[SPEN18]

I mean, flipping the M to a W just happened to work out because they took the"wa" from warui. Then the L flip was just to continue the gag on Waluigi's hat.

I don't think that that would/should affect the name of a potential "Wapeach." I don't think they even necessarily have to with Wapeach as the name either, that was just the idea for the concept as a whole. Warui Piichi = Bad Peach.

I kinda wonder what could work if you try using the Japanese words for rotten or spoiled instead? Like rotten peach or spoiled to refer both to a spoiled peach and a spoiled brat.

Yeah I did know about the "warui" origins but was not really thinking about that when I made the post, just playing with DarthEnderX 's proposal. Though it made for a better joke imo to begin with the premise that everything revolved around messing with the letters and take that as far as it would go.

I forgot to address the capitalization issue for "beach" vs. "Beach," too, double shame on me.

I don't know Japanese so I would have to do some research on what you could do with plays on the "rotten" or "spoiled" words.

In the end, though, I don't actually have much of an opinion on the naming, it's all just bad comedy.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I forgot to capitalize "beach" to "Beach," too, double shame on me.

Like Death Stranding?

 

[SPEN18]

Like Death Stranding?

I've never played that so please elaborate

 

[fogbadge]

you guys let me know if watoad turns up

 

[SPEN18]

you guys let me know if watoad turns up

The upside-down "T" has comedy potential as well.

Up tack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You could interpret the upside-down "T" as the logical falsum/absurdum, so then we'd have "false Toad," or "Foad."

Or you could interpret the upside-down "T" as the "perp" symbol for orthogonality. Since our "Wa"-Toad is going to have no component in the "Toad" direction, he is perpendicular to Toad, therefore named "Poad."

 

[Laniv]

WRT Wapeach: eh, small loss. If they were worried about her being too close to Doronjo, they should have just fully embraced the inspiration.

And we all know Captain Syrup is the proper Wapeach anyways

 

[chocolatejr9]

you guys let me know if watoad turns up

No, but supposedly there may have been plans for a "Wayoshi": think Boshi if Boshi was a straight-up dragon.

The guy who posted Wapeach has been sharing some Spicy Lore(TM) about her...

 

[fogbadge]

No, but supposedly there may have been plans for a "Wayoshi": think Boshi if Boshi was a straight-up dragon.

The guy who posted Wapeach has been sharing some Spicy Lore(TM) about her...

You didn’t need to carry on after the no

 

[chocolatejr9]

You didn’t need to carry on after the no

I thought it'd be interesting to share...

 

[Laniv]

No, but supposedly there may have been plans for a "Wayoshi": think Boshi if Boshi was a straight-up dragon.

The guy who posted Wapeach has been sharing some Spicy Lore(TM) about her...

Did he know about Boshi before?

 

[fogbadge]

I thought it'd be interesting to share...

I dunno, the implications of the phrase “spicy lore” sounds like something that would get people in trouble

 

[Will]

I don't like Luigi being associated with the Poltergeist vacuum, which Smash is clearly establishing. Mama Luigi is at least still purely Luigi. To me at least. The Luigi's Mansion persona, it just look degrading. And overall needless.

Luigi when he equips the Poltergust, supposedly:

It’s a weapon to fight ghosts, not something that alters his personality. “Degrading” sounds extreme for a Mario character. It’s his signature weapon that’s been in all three of his successful independent games. Luigi isn’t becoming a part of the Poltergust, it’s the opposite.

 

[Ivander]

The guy who posted Wapeach has been sharing some Spicy Lore(TM) about her...

I mean, some of the details are interesting, like her not being taken seriously by the cast that isn't Wario and Waluigi, her headpiece's 'ears' move when being expressive and she supposedly is a descendant of a fallen royal family. Also, her preferred fruit is Cherry tomatoes.

I dunno, the implications of the phrase “spicy lore” sounds like something that would get people in trouble

It's just an exaggerated usage. I mean, some people practically said The Super Crown and Peachette were "spicy lore" and that was before the popular Bowsette comic happened.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Well, the symbol for Waluigi is obtained by reflecting the "L" across a horizontal axis, not by rotating it 180 degrees.

Which is why Waluigi's symbol is wrong. It should be a 7.

 

[fogbadge]

she supposedly is a descendant of a fallen royal family.

on second thoughts let’s have her be the main bad guy in a game call Mario & Luigi: Wario & Waluigi

 

[SPEN18]

Which is why Waluigi's symbol is wrong. It should be a 7.

But the reflection makes more thematic sense because it's an orientation-reversing transformation, while rotating to get the "7" is orientation-preserving. Obviously "Wa"-Luigi should be oriented opposite to Luigi.

It's math.

(though the 7 is kinda funny in the sense that Waluigi is somewhat famously omitted from Mario Kart 7)

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Yup. Luigi was a cooler Mario at one point. And he had the hidden unlock able character persona going for him.

If "cooler" means just the same as Mario but Green then sure. You going have to list of examples of games of where this was the case because even back then with him being virtually Player 2 and the eariler RPGs like SMRPG and PM64 implies the dude is basically behind Mario's shadow.

I don't like Luigi being associated with the Poltergeist vacuum, which Smash is clearly establishing. Mama Luigi is at least still purely Luigi. To me at least. The Luigi's Mansion persona, it just look degrading. And overall needless.

Yeah, mate, this just sounds like you being stuck with headcanon version of Luigi that was never there in the games bulit by external material and unofficial media.

Since when was meme from the DIC Cartoons more Luigi then his actual personality from the games. Smash is only established what who is from the series. Which is now a bad thing somehow despite people complain about Smash not being accurate enough.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Luigi has always been a dork. Haven't you guys seen the original Mario anime? He's never been the "cooler Mario."

And what drugs do I have to take to think that Wario Ware is narratively driven (let alone too narratively driven)?

 

[Guynamednelson]

unofficial media

Even Atari predicted Luigi's future

 

[UserKev]

Luigi has always been a dork. Haven't you guys seen the original Mario anime? He's never been the "cooler Mario."

And what drugs do I have to take to think that Wario Ware is narratively driven (let alone too narratively driven)?

He was before he got stuck with a vacuum, clearly. I actually have no idea how to respond to the second sentence you wrote regarding Wario. But Wario's overall get up in Wario Ware is atrocious. You all just lack actual critical thinking skills of some caliber, honestly. And cater to the devs confusing way of belief.

 

[Ivander]

I actually have no idea how to respond to the second sentence you wrote regarding Wario. But Wario's overall get up in Wario Ware is atrocious. You all just lack actual critical thinking skills of some caliber, honestly. And cater to the devs confusing way of belief.

You haven't even given us what makes Wario Ware narratively driven? You just keep saying it is, but no what or why it is. Calling others idiots for not seeing it is practically equivalent to "This thing sucks." "What about it sucks?" "You're all stupid for not seeing why it sucks."