Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[CannonStreak]

We can talk about Earthworm Jim and his creator. But none of the other stuff doesn't have anything to do with games.

Or you may just be wanting to find excuses to talk about this. Not gonna happen, I am afraid.

So guys, about Peppino from Pizza Tower, what can he do?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If you want to get into the unfortunate implications of Doug’s work, Earthworm Jim 3D is the worst offender in my opinion.

Spoiler

As someone who hasn’t played that game, can you explain what the specific deal with that game is, please?

 

[Wonder Smash]

Or you just want to find excuses to talk about this. Not gonna happen, I am afraid.

Talking about Earthworm Jim is no different from talking about every other character. It's not impossible to do it without being negative.

Consider the possibility that someone in this space doesn't want to see discriminatory remarks that are targeted at them.

Then put the spoiler tag on.

Either that or maybe he should use a better source.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Peppino from Pizza Tower. Discuss.

He’d just be another Mario clone.

 

[Gengar84]

I really want to see a Killer Instinct character in Smash. Those games have such cool characters and amazing soundtracks. I think Fulgore is probably the most likely but I’d also love to see others like Glacius, Orchid, or Hisako. With RARE’s previous relationship with Nintendo, I always viewed KI as Nintendo’s fighting game series before Smash. Nintendo being on good terms with Microsoft helps and there are rumors of a possible new game in development.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Spoiler

As someone who hasn’t played that game, can you explain what the specific deal with that game is, please?

I believe they're referring to the final boss, which is... something.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Spoiler

As someone who hasn’t played that game, can you explain what the specific deal with that game is, please?

Spoiler: tw transphobia

So the main villain and final boss of Earthworm Jim 3D is…Earthworm Kim. Earthworm Kim is described as Jim’s long dormant feminine side trying to take over his mind and body.

Given how Doug is an out and out transphobe, the implications are really really bad.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Guys, you've got to stop that. That's where the problem comes into play. You've got to look at Earthworm Jim and his world on its own and not as "Doug TeNapel's work".

You guys need some training.

 

[Schnee117]

idk about you guys but i dont think knowing what kind of person Earhtworm Jim creator will effect his chances to join smash because nintendo or sakurai would probably approach these kind of stuff more like business point of view than anything else or else evil companies like Disney and Konami wouldnt be part of smash in the first place
the thing is majority of consumers or players don't care about these stuff

I mean, it can and will because it's bad press to associate with certain people.
Hero got a bit of flak because the DQ composer (may he rot in piss) was a massive homophobic ******** but the DQ brand is big enough to offset that.
Compare that to Doug Tennapel and how small and unremarkable Earthworm Jim is in comparison. It's a 1000% not worth the bad press.

Like, read these two articles about him (CW for anti-semitism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, the whole lot really):

Interplay silent on Earthworm Jim developer's racist, homophobic remarks

Update August 7, 2020: In a message to GamesBeat, Earthworm Jim original co-creator Doug TenNapel stated that he had on…

www.gamesindustry.biz

Earthworm Jim Creator Attacks Trans Journalist And Misgenders Her

Doug TenNapel, creator of the popular Sega Genesis game Earthworm Jim, has attacked transgender games journalist Heather Alexandra and has begun to post numerous transphobic tweets to his Twitter account. Alexandra posted an article to the video games website Kotaku where she criticised some of the

www.linkedin.com

No-one's gonna associate with this loser unless they're also a piece of ****. That first one goes places.

I believe they're referring to the final boss, which is... something.

yo I love it when talentless hackjobs put unabashed transphobia in their works

Guys, you've got to stop that. That's where the problem comes into play. You've got to look at Earthworm Jim and his world on its own and not as "Doug TeNapel's work".

You guys need some training.

Imagine peddling this media illiterate bull**** lmao

 

[Gengar84]

Beyond just the awesome soundtrack it could bring, I think it would be a lot of fun to bring in the Killer Instinct commentator to narrate for the match that the character takes part in. After all, is it really KI without the commentator shouting things like ULTRA COMBO!!! or CCCCOMBO BREAKER!?

Do you think Fulgore is a given if we did get a KI rep or would you expect or prefer a different character?

 

[Will]

Guys, you've got to stop that. That's where the problem comes into play. You've got to look at Earthworm Jim and his world on its own and not as "Doug TeNapel's work".

You guys need some training.

Lol you’ve been acting like a boomer for the past two hours straight, this deflection is humiliating

His creation, his work. Common sense.

 

[fogbadge]

Zerp would you mind defusing this?

 

[CannonStreak]

Zerp would you mind defusing this?

Yeah, Zerp. Please do so. I think there has been enough talk about this.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Lol you’ve been acting like a boomer for the past two hours straight, this deflection is humiliating

His creation, his work. Common sense.

So you just want to talk about something that makes you angry? Is that it?

 

[osby]

Guys, you've got to stop that. That's where the problem comes into play. You've got to look at Earthworm Jim and his world on its own and not as "Doug TeNapel's work".

Imagine peddling this media illiterate bull**** lmao

Interesting how they went from "you can't prove TeNapel did anything wrong" to "um, haha, who cares if he did anything wrong, haha" lightning fast.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Spoiler: tw transphobia

So the main villain and final boss of Earthworm Jim 3D is…Earthworm Kim. Earthworm Kim is described as Jim’s long dormant feminine side trying to take over his mind and body.

Given how Doug is an out and out transphobe, the implications are really really bad.

Spoiler

Thank you for the explanation.

I really want to see a Killer Instinct character in Smash. Those games have such cool characters and amazing soundtracks. I think Fulgore is probably the most likely but I’d also love to see others like Glacius, Orchid, or Hisako. With RARE’s previous relationship with Nintendo, I always viewed KI as Nintendo’s fighting game series before Smash. Nintendo being on good terms with Microsoft helps and there are rumors of a possible new game in development.

View attachment 369613

If we get Fulgore, which design would they go with?

I mean, it can and will because it's bad press to associate with certain people.
Hero got a bit of flak because the DQ composer (may he rot in piss) was a massive homophobic ******** but the DQ brand is big enough to offset that.
Compare that to Doug Tennapel and how small and unremarkable Earthworm Jim is in comparison. It's a 1000% not worth the bad press.

Has Earthworm Jim ever had Japanese success? If not, he would be even less likely.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Interesting how they went from "you can't prove TeNapel did anything wrong" to "um, haha, who cares if he did anything wrong, haha" lightning fast.

I don't recall anybody doing that.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Guys, you've got to stop that. That's where the problem comes into play. You've got to look at Earthworm Jim and his world on its own and not as "Doug TeNapel's work".

You guys need some training.

Death of the author only goes so far. Ideally, yes we would all be able to separate the work from its author. But it’s not always going to be possible.

What if the artist is still tethered to their work inherently? What if some of the writer’s harmful actions or views bleed into their work? It’s hard to enjoy Harry Potter with how JK Rowling is so involved in the series still. It’s hard to enjoy any Kevin Spacey roll knowing how much of a monster he is in real life.

A lot of Doug’s problematic views, be it his anti evolution bent, his homophobia, or his transphobia, do bleed into his work. It is hard to not associate Doug with an objectively transphobic character he created when he is transphobic himself. This is the guy who not only has been openly transphobic, but said and I quote that "transphobe and homophobe are made up words used to slander conservatives and people of faith with a mental condition".

There is a reason that Earthworm Jim and Interplay have ran far from Doug.

I say Trans Rights are Human Rights, baby!

— TheRealEarthwormJim (@AlltheDirtonJim) November 18, 2021

We've assembled a whole new creative team for Earthworm Jim. The original creator is not involved at all.

— Interplay (@InterplayGames) November 18, 2021

 

[Gengar84]

Spoiler

Thank you for the explanation.

If we get Fulgore, which design would they go with?



Has Earthworm Jim ever had Japanese success? If not, he would be even less likely.

I’d love to see his classic SNES look as his default with the newer 2013 design as an alt. Kind of the reverse of how they did it in the 2013 game.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I’d love to see his classic SNES look as his default with the newer 2013 design as an alt. Kind of the reverse of how they did it in the 2013 game.

That would be pretty good. So I take Fulgore is the main icon of Killer Instinct, right?

 

[Gengar84]

That would be pretty good. So I take Fulgore is the main icon of Killer Instinct, right?

I think Jago is technically the main protagonist but Fulgore was on the cover and is more heavily promoted. I believe he and Orchid had the most advertisement but Spinal and Sabrewulf are up there too. Overall, I’d say Jago is the Liu Kang of Killer Instinct while Fulgore is the Scorpion.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Death of the author only goes so far. Ideally, yes we would all be able to separate the work from its author. But it’s not always going to be possible.

What if the artist is still tethered to their work inherently? What if some of the writer’s harmful actions or views bleed into their work? It’s hard to enjoy Harry Potter with how JK Rowling is so involved in the series still. It’s hard to enjoy any Kevin Spacey roll knowing how much of a monster he is in real life.

A lot of Doug’s problematic views, be it his anti evolution bent, his homophobia, or his transphobia, do bleed into his work. It is hard to not associate Doug with an objectively transphobic character he created when he is transphobic himself. This is the guy who not only has been openly transphobic, but said and I quote that "transphobe and homophobe are made up words used to slander conservatives and people of faith with a mental condition".

There is a reason that Earthworm Jim and Interplay have ran far from Doug.

I say Trans Rights are Human Rights, baby!

— TheRealEarthwormJim (@AlltheDirtonJim) November 18, 2021

We've assembled a whole new creative team for Earthworm Jim. The original creator is not involved at all.

— Interplay (@InterplayGames) November 18, 2021

And shouldn't that be even more of a reason to just only talk about Earthworm Jim and not his creator?

In addition to that, what you're saying is mostly speculation. We don't know for sure if all their works reflect their views. But if their own views conflicts with mine, I'm not going to be quick to assume that their works reflects them because I don't want that to be the case. So I'd rather not assume it. Instead, I'm just going to keep enjoying it like I always have. Otherwise, I'm the one that's destroying my own joy, not the creator. It's really not a good idea to find all these connections in order to come up with something I don't like and then blame the creator for it when I'm the one who did this in the first place.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

And shouldn't that be even more of a reason to just only talk about Earthworm Jim and not his creator?

In addition to that, what you're saying is all speculation anyway. We don't know for sure if their works reflect their views. But if their own views conflicts with mine (at least in that case), I'm not going to be quick to assume that their works reflects them because I don't want that to be the case. So I'd rather not assume it. Instead, I'm just going to keep enjoying it like I always have. Otherwise, I'm the one that's destroying my own joy, not the creator.

The guy has been publicly transphobic enough that his Wikipedia article has an entire section of it. The guy brags about how he is a Christian fundamentalist. It's not like there is deep coded subtext to the problematic parts of Earthworm Jim: it is right there to see. You can't easily say Earthworm Kim was not influenced by Doug being a rampant transphobe when he is one still now. It isn't really a leap in speculation to assume the guy what is transphobic, homophobic, and anti evolution now was also all of those things in the 90s.

Besides, if you wanted any more proof Doug is a jerk, he is super into NFTs now.

 

[Schnee117]

You do not gotta keep going to bat for the dude who likened BLM to Hitler

The guy has been publicly transphobic enough that his Wikipedia article has an entire section of it. The guy brags about how he is a Christian fundamentalist. It's not like there is deep coded subtext to the problematic parts of Earthworm Jim: it is right there to see. You can't easily say Earthworm Kim was not influenced by Doug being a rampant transphobe when he is one still now. It isn't really a leap in speculation to assume the guy what is transphobic, homophobic, and anti evolution now was also all of those things in the 90s.

No but see I care more about enjoying my video games than I care about other human beings, let me enjoy things

 

[fogbadge]

so how complex a fighting games is killer instinct Gengar84 ? the sort of thing anyone can get into or is it only for combo masters?

 

[Will]

So you just want to talk about something that makes you angry? Is that it?

Yes. It is how the world makes change for the better.

so how complex a fighting games is killer instinct Gengar84 ? the sort of thing anyone can get into or is it only for combo masters?

I think KI 13 makes it easier, but it’s still a motion input fighter

 

[Gengar84]

This is the last I’ll comment on the matter because I regret bringing Jim up in the first place. It seems like Earthworm Jim and Minecraft are basically in the same place from what I’ve been reading. Both were created by very bigoted people and both franchises have broken themselves away from their creators for that reason. The main difference seems to be that Minecraft is a lot bigger and it’s not worth the risk of dealing with that for a smaller IP like Earthworm Jim. If Doug no longer has any involvement with the property, that is for the best. I’m not sure whether the IP itself can be salvaged after that even after he’s gone but it’s definitely a step in the right direction. It’s sad because the original game on the SNES is a lot of fun but I totally understand not wanting to support it in any way even after Doug is gone.

so how complex a fighting games is killer instinct Gengar84 ? the sort of thing anyone can get into or is it only for combo masters?

I definitely had a ton of fun with the SNES game as a kid but it does take a bit of work to master and learn all the combos, which I never really did beyond Orchid. The 2013 game has an auto combo feature so you don’t have to learn a ton of button inputs and you can instead focus on spacing kind of like Smash. I usually played with the easy combos on because I never really had the time or dedication to learn all the inputs like I did back then.

 

[Zerp]

Zerp would you mind defusing this?

I'm not actually a mod for this section of the forum but yeah, this is getting out of hand. For now let's at least move the conversation to something less heated. Like here, who do you all think is the most likely Toby Fox character? Is it Sans? Is it someone else like Kris, the human, Spamton, Papyrus, Undyne, etc?

 

[Schnee117]

so how complex a fighting games is killer instinct Gengar84 ? the sort of thing anyone can get into or is it only for combo masters?

The latest game has an auto combo thing so you can just push buttons to do the cool stuff but it's fairly complex in doing combo breakers and making sure you time them correctly and getting the right move strength so you don't get locked out of doing them for a short period and also not getting baited into doing them so the person doing a combo doesn't counter break your combo breaker and get a full combo reset which often means death, especially if they're playing General RAAM

tl;dr, easy to get into, hard to master

 

[Wonder Smash]

The guy has been publicly transphobic enough that his Wikipedia article has an entire section of it. The guy brags about how he is a Christian fundamentalist. It's not like there is deep coded subtext to the problematic parts of Earthworm Jim: it is right there to see. You can't easily say Earthworm Kim was not influenced by Doug being a rampant transphobe when he is one still now. It isn't really a leap in speculation to assume the guy what is transphobic, homophobic, and anti evolution now was also all of those things in the 90s.

Besides, if you wanted any more proof Doug is a jerk, he is super into NFTs now.

I really can't say for sure that I see that in Earthworm Kim. In order for me to do that, I'd have to really put some thought into it or it has be brought up for it even occur in my mind. It'd be no different if I was trying to do this with every other boss character in the game and it would be just as silly. Like, Fatty Roswell, for example. It would be really silly if I took that as him hating people who are overweight but it's no different from Earthworm Kim. But that's what happens when people's views on works are influenced by the person who created it, even when they're not even involved. You've got the separate the art from the artist.

Yes. It is how the world makes change for the better.

Nice joke.

 

[Will]

I'm not actually a mod for this section of the forum but yeah, this is getting out of hand. For now let's at least move the conversation to something less heated. Like here, who do you all think is the most likely Toby Fox character? Is it Sans? Is it someone else like Kris, the human, Spamton, Papyrus, Undyne, etc?

how would you make sans work while being faithful to the fact that he dies to literally anything? is that even possible?

 

[chocolatejr9]

how would you make sans work while being faithful to the fact that he dies to literally anything? is that even possible?

He's the most OP character in Smash, yet he always starts at 300% damage.

 

[Speed Weed]

You've got the separate the art from the artist.

oh my ****ing god we are not going down this route

Separating the art from the artist isn't some one-size-fits-all magical solution. It depends on the context, how bad the creator's views or actions are, if it bleeds into the work, if they're still profiting off of the work and/or active in their ****ty behavior. Doug TenNapel is an absolutely evil human being, and while Earthworm Kim would be questionable already without the context of the man himself, here it's just blatantly obvious that it comes from a place of bigotry. When that kind of stuff comes into play, it's frankly impossible to separate the art from the artist. The expression should be used as simple acknowledgement that it's kind of impossible to shut ourselves off from every piece of media that was made by a bad person, and that sometimes it's fine to still enjoy some of it if there's enough of a distance there. It is not, however, some wishy-washy blanket excuse to run away from critically engaging with the problematic aspects of media. You can't go "well you just gotta separate the art from the artist!" with everything, it's more complicated than that, and IMO constantly taking that route no matter the situation comes across as incredibly entitled and disrespectful as **** to the members of marginalized groups who are targets of said creators' hate. I like some art made by bad people too, but ****, dude, there are limits. This ain't it.

 

[fogbadge]

how would you make sans work while being faithful to the fact that he dies to literally anything? is that even possible?

doesn't crash have the same problem?

 

[Wonder Smash]

oh my ****ing god we are not going down this route

Separating the art from the artist isn't some one-size-fits-all magical solution. It depends on the context, how bad the creator's views or actions are, if it bleeds into the work, if they're still profiting off of the work and/or active in their ty behavior. Doug TenNapel is an absolutely evil human being, and while Earthworm Kim would be questionable already without the context of the man himself, here it's just blatantly obvious that it comes from a place of bigotry. When that kind of stuff comes into play, it's frankly impossible to separate the art from the artist. The expression should be used as simple acknowledgement that it's kind of impossible to shut ourselves off from every piece of media that was made by a bad person, and that sometimes it's fine to still enjoy some of it if there's enough of a distance there. It is not, however, some wishy-washy blanket excuse to run away from critically engaging with the problematic aspects of media. You can't go "well you just gotta separate the art from the artist!" with everything, it's more complicated than that, and IMO constantly taking that route no matter the situation comes across as incredibly entitled and disrespectful as to the members of marginalized groups who are targets of said creators' hate. I like some art made by bad people too, but **, dude, there are limits. This ain't it.

It's obvious nobody was thinking this when they played Earthworm Jim before, so don't try to act like it's hard to separate the art from the artist now, especially when he's not even with the series anymore. If you admit you can still enjoy it, then you shouldn't have any problems with what I said. Simple as that. It's not that hard. If people can accept Steve without saying a word about the creator of Minecraft, then this shouldn't be any different.

 

[osby]

how would you make sans work while being faithful to the fact that he dies to literally anything? is that even possible?

Make him super lightweight, as in even more fragile than Pichu or Mr. Game & Watch. It's not literal but quite close in terms of how Smash handles endurance.

 

[DarthEnderX]

worse than the guy who made minecraft? I don’t mean that to sound disingenuous, I literally don’t know what they’ve done. The Jim maker not the minecraft maker

The difference is the Minecraft maker doesn't own Minecraft anymore. So supporting Minecraft no longer puts money in his pocket. That's not the case with Earthworm Jim.

 

[Will]

Make him super lightweight, as in even more fragile than Pichu or Mr. Game & Watch. It's not literal but quite close in terms of how Smash handles endurance.

So his recovery game is absolutely busted?

 

[SneakyLink]

I’m still reading the past few pages trying to determine everything that happened.

For now, I am going to request that the thread not bring up Earthworm Jim for the foreseeable future.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Ninjad by SneakyLink, so I will just hold my tongue for now.

how would you make sans work while being faithful to the fact that he dies to literally anything? is that even possible?

Glass cannon that makes Pichu blush. Strong offensive tools, great mobility, light as a feather and can't afford to lose neutral more than once a stock.