Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

So anyone wanna talk about Pokémon leaks? No? Ok

 

[PeridotGX]

RE: Gen 9 Pokemon in Smash

so far my best guesses for Smash 6 are:

Spoiler: Pokemon for Smash 6?

Meowscarada, Quaquaval, Armarouge & Ceruledge (these 2 might be a package deal), Cyclizar, Miraidon, and Koraidon.

The only Gen 9 Pokemon I think is particularly likely for Gen 9 is Paradox Jigglypuff/Scream Tail, who has the advantage of being able to be an echo. Everyone else will likely be a victim of timing, as Gen 10 will likely release by then with it's own Pokemon to be added.

 

[Quillion]

Everyone else will likely be a victim of timing, as Gen 10 will likely release by then with it's own Pokemon to be added.

This is one reason why Sakurai's "bring as much veterans back as possible" philosophy is showing weakness. It's the combination of that and the focus on recent games at the time that feels... contradictory.

If Smash wants to make a character as "immortalized" as possible, it should "wait and see".

If Smash wants to give admitted "flavor of the month" picks their fair shake, it should be more open to cuts.

 

[Aligo]

This is one reason why Sakurai's "bring as much veterans back as possible" philosophy is showing weakness. It's the combination of that and the focus on recent games at the time that feels... contradictory.

If Smash wants to make a character as "immortalized" as possible, it should "wait and see".

If Smash wants to give admitted "flavor of the month" picks their fair shake, it should be more open to cuts.

I don't know really. If you exclude fire emblem, this argument is quite hard to make.

Also smash will likely have to make cuts regardless. Sora is most likely not coming back; they weren't even able to negotiate for an amiibo. Characters like young link and Corrin were kept for the sake of everyone is here, and since that is not likely to be possible due to license issues, they will go too. There will be plenty of space for new characters in the next release, whether it is an upgrade of ultimate or a new title.

Besides, if we are talking about current options for fighters from recent games, there isn't that many, so no big loss

Spoiler: Pokémon

Skeledirge is genuinely awesome but we have both fire Pokémon and crocodiles already in smash

.

 

[SPEN18]

Also smash will likely have to make cuts regardless

But I think "being more open to cuts" is quite a bit different than simply having to make them. It's one thing if you try to give all the vets advanced priority standing simply for being vets, i.e. intend to bring them all back with the knowledge that you'll inevitably fall short most of the time. And it's another if you're actively and constantly reevaluating the roster to make it as good as possible, including reassessing where the vets stand relative to changing times and circumstances. Sometimes characters fall off, don't catch on or have the staying power that you'd first imagine, or originally get added to the roster for very specific and circumstance-sensitive reasons that may no longer be relevant in a new game. It's clear that excessive flavor-of-the-monthing is not going to be completely sustainable in conjunction with the vets-first paradigm; something has to give.

 

[Quillion]

Besides, if we are talking about current options for fighters from recent games, there isn't that many, so no big loss

Recent games now sure.

But there will probably be more games out be next Smash with flavor of the month games and characters.

And if any of those flavor of the month characters get in Smash, they'll look out of place later assuming the "bring back most veterans" philosophy stays.

 

[osby]

It's clear that excessive flavor-of-the-monthing is not going to be completely sustainable in conjunction with the vets-first paradigm; something has to give.

The binary you're suggesting is between two scenarios that don't actually exist.

Smash never had "excessive" amounts of characters added for the sake of recency. It always had a balance of old and new characters and the new ones had staying power in their fandoms more often than not.

The "veterans first" mentality isn't something unusual, unsustainable, or unique to Smash. Keeping a large number of established characters around is run-of-the-mill for pretty much all long-running fighting game series, both to not alienate the fans and because it's hard to come up with movesets that don't tread the old ground.

The next Smash game likely won't have "everyone is here" but other than that, I don't see any contradictory design philosophies.

 

[Quillion]

It always had a balance of old and new characters and the new ones had staying power in their fandoms more often than not.

The new ones had staying power early on like say Ike and Roy.

But nowadays not so much. Corrin and Incineroar absolutely have fallen off.

 

[dream1ng]

Sora is most likely not coming back; they weren't even able to negotiate for an amiibo.

This argument still doesn't make sense. Sora was hard to negotiate for... but they did successfully... but it was difficult... so he won't come back... because he was hard to negotiate for... even though they've already done that successfully.

If anything now the bridge is built and the character has an established depiction in Smash which satisfied his respective parties.

Sure he may not return, as any third-party may not, but not for a reason that they overcame already. The hardest negotiations would've been the ones that already took place.

 

[Laniv]

So anyone wanna talk about Pokémon leaks? No? Ok

Sprigatito's final evo is good but its middle evo is GREAT

 

[Perkilator]

This argument still doesn't make sense. Sora was hard to negotiate for... but they did successfully... but it was difficult... so he won't come back... because he was hard to negotiate for... even though they've already done that successfully.

If anything now the bridge is built and the character has an established depiction in Smash which satisfied his respective parties.

Sure he may not return, as any third-party may not, but not for a reason that they overcame already. The hardest negotiations would've been the ones that already took place.

Besides, we don’t even know if they couldn’t negotiate for an amiibo; I’m pretty sure the last couple or so DLC fighters for Sm4sh got their amiibo AFTER DLC for that game wrapped up, no?

 

[dream1ng]

Besides, we don’t even know if they couldn’t negotiate for an amiibo; I’m pretty sure the last couple or so DLC fighters for Sm4sh got their amiibo AFTER DLC for that game wrapped up, no?

Also even if they weren't able to negotiate an amiibo, correlating that with a failure to return to the game is conflating two different things.

If you were to say they couldn't get an amiibo, so next time they won't be able to either (if they, hypothetically, made new amiibos), I'd say sure. If you say they couldn't get an amiibo so next time he won't be in the game, I'd say that's pretty specious logic.

I think it's evident that at this point, negotiating for the characters entails negotiating for the eventual amiibo as well. If they weren't able to achieve that with Sora, clearly it wasn't a dealbreaker, and they made the concession to at least get the character in there. Because it's Sora.

amiibos are barely a priority for Nintendo anymore anyway, let alone when the next Smash actually releases.

 

[Laniv]

Besides, we don’t even know if they couldn’t negotiate for an amiibo; I’m pretty sure the last couple or so DLC fighters for Sm4sh got their amiibo AFTER DLC for that game wrapped up, no?

I'm thinking Sora will get an amiibo, but Disney's trying to get all his designs for his first four costumes, because they want that sweet, sweet merchandise money

 

[DarthEnderX]

Or maybe Iori and Nakoruru, since they’re both just as popular among SNK’s characters as Terry is?

Nakoruru seems the next most likely SNK pick.

Though, not the CORRECT pick:

 

[SPEN18]

The binary you're suggesting is between two scenarios that don't actually exist.

Choosing flavors of the month and prioritizing vets both exist and are likely to continue to exist together to varying extents. So it's not a binary in the sense of choosing one or the other, no. But both continuing to inflate at current rates is unsustainable, yes.

Smash never had "excessive" amounts of characters added for the sake of recency

That can be your opinion, but it is not mine.

the new ones had staying power in their fandoms more often than not.

But not always. And not necessarily to the same extent that some alternatives not playable in Smash have had in those same fandoms. Each one is its own individualized situation.

The "veterans first" mentality isn't something unusual, unsustainable, or unique to Smash. Keeping a large number of established characters around is run-of-the-mill for pretty much all long-running fighting game series, both to not alienate the fans and because it's hard to come up with movesets that don't tread the old ground.

To be a bit blunt, I don't really care what other fighting games do. But, besides that, it's not like we're talking about cutting Mario or Kirby. Most of the core of the roster has not "fallen off" so-to-speak to the extent that we should consider removing/replacing them. A large number of vets will and should stick around, just not necessarily as overwhelming a majority as some fans would like.

 

[Ivander]

The new ones had staying power early on like say Ike and Roy.

But nowadays not so much. Corrin and Incineroar absolutely have fallen off.

Incineroar, maybe. Most Starters aside from the first three and maybe Blaziken and Greninja don't really stay in the spotlight aside from when they or their Gen are focused upon. Like when Cyndaquil, Oshawott and Rowlett were the chosen starters for Pokemon Legends Arceus. But Pokemon for the most part has always had a "flavor of the month" focus with it's Pokemon, where Pokemon don't often get attention unless they or their Gen are being focused on. With very few Pokemon getting long-lasting popularity that stay throughout the Generations.

Corrin, by what I've been seeing regarding within the FE fandom, has been getting more popular as time goes on, even the Male version.

 

[Aligo]

Corrin, by what I've been seeing regarding within the FE fandom, has been getting more popular as time goes on, even the Male version.

Corrins issue is that they are unpopular relative to the rest of the FE cast in smash. Since it is the franchise most likely to receive cuts aside from third parties it puts them in a precarious position.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm thinking Sora will get an amiibo, but Disney's trying to get all his designs for his first four costumes, because they want that sweet, sweet merchandise money

I’ll be glad to get each one~

 

[Quillion]

Incineroar, maybe. Most Starters aside from the first three and maybe Blaziken and Greninja don't really stay in the spotlight aside from when they or their Gen are focused upon. Like when Cyndaquil, Oshawott and Rowlett were the chosen starters for Pokemon Legends Arceus. But Pokemon for the most part has always had a "flavor of the month" focus with it's Pokemon, where Pokemon don't often get attention unless they or their Gen are being focused on. With very few Pokemon getting long-lasting popularity that stay throughout the Generations.

That's why I want them to take the "wait and see" approach with Pokémon though, alongside Fire Emblem and Xenoblade.

Let the precious few evergreen Pokémon that have proven themselves become playable in Smash. No more unproven, untested pups putting the cart before the horse.

I'll say it again: Bowser Jr. wasn't playable in Brawl for a reason. He got in when he proved himself after the Galaxy duology.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It would be amusing to see the WTF factor applied to Pokemon just once for selections; like we just get some out of nowhere choice from some random Gen showing up in the next Smash just because.

"Sawsbuck is Deering All to Fight!"

 

[Aligo]

That's why I want them to take the "wait and see" approach with Pokémon though, alongside Fire Emblem and Xenoblade.

Let the precious few evergreen Pokémon that have proven themselves become playable in Smash. No more unproven, untested pups putting the cart before the horse.

I'll say it again: Bowser Jr. wasn't playable in Brawl for a reason. He got in when he proved himself after the Galaxy duology.

Yes, I suppose that strategy has worked pretty well when it has been implemented. Characters like Rosalinda and Aegis have managed to retain popularity over the long term. As you said the case is the same for bowser junior.

 

[SPEN18]

That's why I want them to take the "wait and see" approach with Pokémon though, alongside Fire Emblem and Xenoblade.

Let the precious few evergreen Pokémon that have proven themselves become playable in Smash. No more unproven, untested pups putting the cart before the horse.

I'll say it again: Bowser Jr. wasn't playable in Brawl for a reason. He got in when he proved himself after the Galaxy duology.

It is possible that Nintendo wanted to see more of a future from Jr before putting him in, especially as Sunshine's timing didn't line up particularly well with the initial plans for Brawl. Looking at Jr's release timeline relative to Brawl's, it seems believable that Sakurai wouldn't have known about his mainline post-Sunshine appearances when the project plan was first drafted.
But couldn't Jr have also been simply out-prioritized by the likes of Wario and Diddy? Though I haven't seen any evidence of Jr even being considered for Brawl.

Agreed on the rest, though.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Yes, I suppose that strategy has worked pretty well when it has been implemented. Characters like Rosalinda and Aegis have managed to retain popularity over the long term. As you said the case is the same for bowser junior.

I don't know where people pull that name from but it drives me nuts.

It's Rosalina. There is no "d" in there.

 

[Aligo]

I don't know where people pull that name from but it drives me nuts.

It's Rosalina. There is no "d" in there.

Ah, I was trolled my mobile autocorrect

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's why I want them to take the "wait and see" approach with Pokémon though, alongside Fire Emblem and Xenoblade.

Let the precious few evergreen Pokémon that have proven themselves become playable in Smash. No more unproven, untested pups putting the cart before the horse.

I'll say it again: Bowser Jr. wasn't playable in Brawl for a reason. He got in when he proved himself after the Galaxy duology.

On the other hand, Bowser Jr. was playable with the Koopa Clown Car, and the other Koopalings didn't have more proper 3D models yet till quite a bit later. So the concept only worked because all 8 had proper models, not so much "he needed to prove himself". Maybe some of each, but the concept did require a specific context too.

I don't mind the new Pokemon at all(though keep in mind Lucario was also unproven when put in, but still worked out. Greninja and Lucario are the only cases where they were super popular, with Incineroar being on the lighter end of popularity, but still popular). Incineroar's only real issue is that the game ended with it and Ken, not the biggest blowout(if it was Isabelle, that'd be different, as she's not an Echo but also an All-Star). Not to say every person would be happy to end on her, but obviously there is no character every person in the world likes, so that's not saying much.

 

[Quillion]

On the other hand, Bowser Jr. was playable with the Koopa Clown Car, and the other Koopalings didn't have more proper 3D models yet till quite a bit later. So the concept only worked because all 8 had proper models, not so much "he needed to prove himself". Maybe some of each, but the concept did require a specific context too.

I don't mind the new Pokemon at all(though keep in mind Lucario was also unproven when put in, but still worked out. Greninja and Lucario are the only cases where they were super popular, with Incineroar being on the lighter end of popularity, but still popular). Incineroar's only real issue is that the game ended with it and Ken, not the biggest blowout(if it was Isabelle, that'd be different, as she's not an Echo but also an All-Star). Not to say every person would be happy to end on her, but obviously there is no character every person in the world likes, so that's not saying much.

I don't know about the Koopalings. Is there any evidence that Jr. was only put in as a package deal with the Koopalings and someone disallowed the idea of Jr. having regular palettes?

Also, can Lucario be considered "unproven" when it was one of Gen 4's ambassadors?

 

[SPEN18]

But I don't think we know how much, if at all, the possibility of the Koopaling gimmick helped Jr get in. I feel like he probably would've made it regardless of the Koopaling alts.

Besides, given how utterly irrelevant the Koopalings were in ~2005 I think it's almost certain the Koopalings had nothing to do with Jr not making it into Brawl. Seems most likely to me that Sakurai came up with that gimmick after the Koopalings got back some visibility; at the least, I haven't seen any statements contradicting that intuition.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Bowser Jr wasn't getting in until there was an actual gimmick or concept for him to have and the mini clown car in the NSMB games starting with Wii (and really going into high gear with U) did just that. Throw in the good fortune of the Koopalings becoming prominent again around the same time with Smash 4 happening to have 8 total skins for fighters and the rest was history.

 

[Perkilator]

Bowser Jr wasn't getting in until there was an actual gimmick or concept for him to have and the mini clown car in the NSMB games starting with Wii (and really going into high gear with U) did just that. Throw in the good fortune of the Koopalings becoming prominent again around the same time with Smash 4 happening to have 8 total skins for fighters and the rest was history.

I think if he got in Brawl, we could've seen how Sakurai would've handled the paintbrush Jr. wields. This is just me with hypothetical ideas, though.

 

[dream1ng]

I think saying Bowser Jr would only get in if he had a gimmick a pretty revisionism-laden statement. He's a quite prominent character in the Mario series who had as much demand as the next big Mario candidate pre-inclusion. He very easily could've been implemented, eventually, more traditionally.

He's not Sheik.

 

[SPEN18]

As a long time detractor of the Koopalings and a longtime supporter of Paintbrush!Jr I would've liked to see Jr get in before the gimmick parade in 4. Mac, too, I guess (at least Mac is still fun to pummel more casual players with, though). But it's hard to blame Brawl too much because that game had a lot of bases to cover roster-wise (and I do think Melee's short dev cycle may have at least somewhat exacerbated the glut of obvious picks like Diddy, Wario, MK, etc. that weren't even in yet).

 

[Hadokeyblade]

My preferable FE roster in smash would be to just get rid of Chrom, Lucina and Roy.
Having Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin and Byleth feels perfectly fine to me since they all play differently and we'd cut the Archanea cast by half.

Two other JRPG characters that I’m hoping for are Xemnas (or Ansem) from Kingdom Hearts and an Alphen/Shionne duo transform character from Tales of Arise. Both would have really unique movesets and each is a pretty major part of their games so I don’t think either is completely off the table, even if neither is especially likely.

It's unlikely Kingdom hearts would ever get a second rep, but i feel like if it did it would either be Riku (The second main character of the series basically) or Roxas (An easy echo fighter)

I'm thinking Sora will get an amiibo, but Disney's trying to get all his designs for his first four costumes, because they want that sweet, sweet merchandise money

Imagine the madness that would be if they for some reason decided that all of Sora's alts would get an amiibo, but something like "Timeless river Sora" would be exclusive to the Disney parks, i could see Disney asking for that.

 

[Gengar84]

My preferable FE roster in smash would be to just get rid of Chrom, Lucina and Roy.
Having Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin and Byleth feels perfectly fine to me since they all play differently and we'd cut the Archanea cast by half.


It's unlikely Kingdom hearts would ever get a second rep, but i feel like if it did it would either be Riku (The second main character of the series basically) or Roxas (An easy echo fighter)



Imagine the madness that would be if they for some reason decided that all of Sora's alts would get an amiibo, but something like "Timeless river Sora" would be exclusive to the Disney parks, i could see Disney asking for that.

Yeah, I’m not really expecting either of them myself, they’re just some of my personal favorites who I don’t think are completely impossible. I realize I have pretty unusual Smash preferences so I’m totally fine if I don’t get any of my dream picks since most of them are long shots at best. That’s one reason I love Smash mods so much so everyone has a chance to see their favorites even if they’d never get in otherwise.

I’ve always really loved Xemnas’ design (especially his white coat). I’ve always preferred to get the main villain as a second rep before supporting protagonists like Riku since it’s more fun to me to pair them off against each other. It’s not really unheard of at least since we did get Sephiroth before Tifa or any other playable character other than Cloud.

Shionne is my new favorite Tales main protagonist followed closely by Velvet. A tag team with Alphen and Shionne would be great since their playstyles compliment each other so well and they cover each other’s weaknesses. Alphen also relies on Shionne’s powers in order to best utilize his own. I’ve never really particularly cared for Lloyd or Sora even though I really like both franchises.

 

[Geno Boost]

Golden sun fans gonna love this Isaac trailer

 

[MrMcNuts]

For the few here who are interested the Rayman for smash movement has hit a pretty significant milestone on the Twitter end of things today:

https://twitter.com/RaymanForSmash/status/1590740937319538688?t=RcfHJzkCdkztmWm8S5pScA&s=19

Hopefully we can hit 10k before Elon (possibly) ruins the site for good

 

[chocolatejr9]

For the few here who are interested the Rayman for smash movement has hit a pretty significant milestone on the Twitter end of things today:

https://twitter.com/RaymanForSmash/status/1590740937319538688?t=RcfHJzkCdkztmWm8S5pScA&s=19

Hopefully we can hit 10k before Elon (possibly) ruins the site for good

If certain things I heard are true (apparently even Nintendo has pulled ads from Twitter due to all this, though they still tweet about their games), then that may not be for much longer...

 

[Oracle Link]

My personal favorite versions of the characters are OoT Link and Ganondorf and Twilight Princess Zelda.

I dont really like TP Zelda shes mostly fine in Smash but pretty Edgy in the actual Game!
Again im not the biggest Twilight Princess Fan it just tried to dark to please the "ZeLdA iS sO dArK CrOwD!"
Zeldas Darkness Works Best if its subtle like in Links Awekening, OOT or heck MM Might not be subtle but it still Pulls it of Greatly!

 

[MrMcNuts]

If certain things I heard are true (apparently even Nintendo has pulled ads from Twitter due to all this, though they still tweet about their games), then that may not be for much longer...

He really is speed running how fast he can tank the site.

At least we propelled him to the top dog requests (in the west) and made an impact on the speculation scene in the end

 

[Ivander]

I dont really like TP Zelda shes mostly fine in Smash but pretty Edgy in the actual Game!

She isn't though? She surrenders to save what innocent people she can save, gives Midna her soul and powers to save Midna's life, is possessed by Ganondorf to fight Link, and is given the Light Arrows to help Link fight Ganondorf. That's all she really does in Twilight Princess. She is far from edgy.

Try not to mistake fan depictions of her to what she does in Twilight Princess, because it's definitely the fans who try to depict her as this tough and blunt character in comparison to the other Zeldas, when she is nowhere near such in Twilight Princess and is portrayed more as a tragic character who tries to do what she can to help Link and Midna and save her people.

 

[chocolatejr9]

He really is speed running how fast he can tank the site.

At least we propelled him to the top dog requests (in the west) and made an impact on the speculation scene in the end

And hey: maybe the Mario + Rabbids DLC will help introduce him to a new audience. Maybe even a... Japanese audience?

Sorry, I'm just trying to be hopeful.