• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

smashkirby

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
6,852
Location
Smashville
Sounds like one of those things where we'd need somebody like DidYouKnowGaming to try and figure it out...

Either that, or Nintendo is already at the "scrapping the bottom of the barrel" phase of NSO for N64. Like, you know how everybody complained about how the NES and SNES lineups on NSO are just big name Nintendo games and whatever random third parties that most people have never heard of? That's... more or less the N64's lineup in general, if that makes any sense.
For as much as I LOVE PW64, I CAN see the majority consider that to be the start of Nintendo's 'bottom of the barrel' bunch. Which, again, is a tad sad to see considering its being a launch title and all.

Then explain the Elite Beat Agents trophy in Brawl.
It was the US version of the existing Ouendan games, so I assume Sakurai gave that a pass based on that.
Literally what I was just about to say. The EBA ARE (in a manner of speaking) the Ouendan, but """re-skinned""". Not to mention that they and (I think?) the Elite Beat Divas were all available in Ouendan 2 as unlockable post-game bonuses.

Something Mike Jones and Mr. Stevenson can't exactly lay claim to (i.e. appearing in Japan whatsoever), yet the cast of Pilotwings 64 CAN...
 
Last edited:

osby

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
23,514
Are video game versions of historical people on the table?
I say, there was a Napoleon Bonaparte game for the Game Boy Advance.
They're probably free reign since fictionalized versions of a figure are not the same as just putting that person in a game.

Say, Samurai Warriors or Fate characters are usually pretty recognizable as their own thing so they'd be fine.
 

Gengar84

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
5,529
They're probably free reign since fictionalized versions of a figure are not the same as just putting that person in a game.

Say, Samurai Warriors or Fate characters are usually pretty recognizable as their own thing so they'd be fine.
I’d absolutely love to see some Dynasty Warriors, Samurai Warriors, and Sengoku Basara characters in Smash. The characters from each of those games have such fun personalities and tons of moveset potential that would make for really cool fighters. Just imagining Lu Bu from Dynasty Warriors or Masamune Date from Sengoku Basara battling it out with Cloud and Ganondorf is pretty awesome in my opinion. As to the question of whether Sakurai would disqualify them for being based on real people, I’m honestly not sure, I can see it going either way. I definitely support the idea though.
 
Last edited:

HyperSomari64

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
2,988
Location
Lima, Peru
They're probably free reign since fictionalized versions of a figure are not the same as just putting that person in a game.
Only if it's dead for a long time. If that person died like a week ago, does it counts as disrespecting?
Imagine if out of nowhere, Fate/Grand Order added Queen Elizabeth II as a servant months after her death.
 
Last edited:

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,275
Only if it's dead for a long time. If that person died like a week ago, does it counts as disrespecting?
Imagine if out of nowhere, Fate/Grand Order added Queen Elizabeth II as a servant months after her death.
Actually, now I'm curious: how "recent" is Fate able to get with its Servants? Like, I doubt they have any "modern" historical figures, but what's their cutoff point?

Also, I'd suggest talking Fate in Smash, but everytime we do people bring up the first game's... problems.
 

Gengar84

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
5,529
Actually, now I'm curious: how "recent" is Fate able to get with its Servants? Like, I doubt they have any "modern" historical figures, but what's their cutoff point?

Also, I'd suggest talking Fate in Smash, but everytime we do people bring up the first game's... problems.
All I’ll say is it’s not really my thing. I watched the entire first season of the anime years ago and it was okay but I never really got what all the hype was about. That and it’s origins are a bit much for my personal taste. Still, I’m not going to put down its fans and if Saber manages to get in Smash, I’ll be fine with it, like I am with pretty much anyone else. I will admit the whole concept of King Arthur being reborn as an anime girl that the main character falls in love with was pretty funny. I’ve heard the second season is much better and it does have one of my favorite voice actors (Crispin Freeman), so maybe I’ll give it another chance someday.
 
Last edited:

TCT~Phantom

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Messages
3,965
NNID
TCT~Phantom
Actually, now I'm curious: how "recent" is Fate able to get with its Servants? Like, I doubt they have any "modern" historical figures, but what's their cutoff point?

Also, I'd suggest talking Fate in Smash, but everytime we do people bring up the first game's... problems.
Fate in smash tbh is something I think is worth discussing, if only due to how huge FGO is in Japan especially. Fate is big, and we could very easily see Saber in smash despite the first games…complications.

I feel like for Saber or a few other characters like her that do have a solid shot, at least part of the dismissal is due to people not wanting them. If saber got in smash, I wouldn’t be exactly happy as I have no real love towards the fate series. But you know some people would be seething over it. I do think that it’s always best to as much as possible remove your own personal biases in what you expect and what you want. Just as an example, if Genshin Impact doesn’t explode and die in the next year or so, which seems highly unlikely, I would bet on it being in the next smash even though I could not care less about it.
 

Gengar84

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
5,529
Fate in smash tbh is something I think is worth discussing, if only due to how huge FGO is in Japan especially. Fate is big, and we could very easily see Saber in smash despite the first games…complications.

I feel like for Saber or a few other characters like her that do have a solid shot, at least part of the dismissal is due to people not wanting them. If saber got in smash, I wouldn’t be exactly happy as I have no real love towards the fate series. But you know some people would be seething over it. I do think that it’s always best to as much as possible remove your own personal biases in what you expect and what you want. Just as an example, if Genshin Impact doesn’t explode and die in the next year or so, which seems highly unlikely, I would bet on it being in the next smash even though I could not care less about it.
My logic is, with such a huge roster, Smash is bound to have a least a few characters that don’t cater to any one person’s personal preference. The good news is that you can easily just use any of the tons of other characters in the game if you don’t happen to like a particular newcomer. That’s one reason it doesn’t make much sense to me to get upset over a character you don’t like joining the roster. That and there are way more important things in life than to waste your energy getting angry over a video game, even one I love as much as Smash.
 

Opossum

Thread Title Changer
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
33,447
Location
This Thread
NNID
OpossumGuy
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
Would it matter?
The one case where I do think it would matter is in the case of a still-living person. For historical domain characters (for example, Code Name: S.T.E.A.M.'s Abraham Lincoln, Napoleon from Napoleon, or any of the numerous fictionalized versions of Nobunaga) it isn't an issue at all, but a real life person may not want their likeness associated with violence.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Dr. Kawashima's Assist Trophy is one of the ones that can't be attacked, or that he leaves the screen before the math bombs appear.
 

Wonder Smash

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
1,919
well the nature of no non video game characters was in reference to playable characters
This is a video game version of a real life person and I don't think Sakurai ever said that those characters can't be playable.

The one case where I do think it would matter is in the case of a still-living person. For historical domain characters (for example, Code Name: S.T.E.A.M.'s Abraham Lincoln, Napoleon from Napoleon, or any of the numerous fictionalized versions of Nobunaga) it isn't an issue at all, but a real life person may not want their likeness associated with violence.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Dr. Kawashima's Assist Trophy is one of the ones that can't be attacked, or that he leaves the screen before the math bombs appear.
But then again, it could just simply be based on the way he was designed in the Brain Age game.
 
Last edited:

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
21,131
Location
Scotland
This is a video game version of a real life person and I don't think Sakurai ever said that those characters can't be playable.



But then again, it could just simply be based on the way he was designed in the Brain Age game.
no he didn’t. but he also isn’t playable. so we can’t know if it’s allowed. a grey area
 

Sid-cada

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
1,779
Actually, now I'm curious: how "recent" is Fate able to get with its Servants? Like, I doubt they have any "modern" historical figures, but what's their cutoff point?
In-universe, it is noted that in order to qualify as Servant, they have to have a Heroic Spirit, which has to have an element of "Mystery" to them. They have to have some blanks or not-well documented parts of their lives in order to qualify, which means that it's harder for modern people to qualify as their lives tend to be more well documented.

Typically, Servants tend to be 100-50 years old compared to the present day, from what I can find, with the explanation that their legends still need maturing in order to do so. WWII is seen as a cutting off point in general, as around that point is where "mass production has made it harder for individuals to stand out."

The most recent servant that I know of is based on the Voyager I spacecraft, which launched into space in the year 1977.
 

Wonder Smash

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
1,919
no he didn’t. but he also isn’t playable. so we can’t know if it’s allowed. a grey area
Well, I don't think Sakurai would be against the idea of adding a character like Lu Bu from Dynasty Warriors in Smash. There's different fictional versions of that person (Ryofu from World Heroes is also based on Lu Bu). Just like how there's different versions of Goku, with Nintendo having their own version, so he's obviously not ruled out.
 
Last edited:

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,275
In-universe, it is noted that in order to qualify as Servant, they have to have a Heroic Spirit, which has to have an element of "Mystery" to them. They have to have some blanks or not-well documented parts of their lives in order to qualify, which means that it's harder for modern people to qualify as their lives tend to be more well documented.

Typically, Servants tend to be 100-50 years old compared to the present day, from what I can find, with the explanation that their legends still need maturing in order to do so. WWII is seen as a cutting off point in general, as around that point is where "mass production has made it harder for individuals to stand out."

The most recent servant that I know of is based on the Voyager I spacecraft, which launched into space in the year 1977.
Oh, so there IS a lore reason for that. NGL, was genuinely curious...
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
21,131
Location
Scotland
Well, I don't think Sakurai would be against the idea of adding a character like Lu Bu in Smash. There's different fictional versions of that person (Ryofu from World Heroes is also based on Lu Bu). Just like how there's different versions of Goku, with Nintendo having their own version, so he's obviously not ruled out.
have to wait and see
 

Gengar84

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
5,529
Really? Well, I'm glad he didn't.do that.
If it meant we could have had DLC outfits for existing characters instead of Miis, I’d have personally been happier with it but I get why a lot of people love the crossover appeal of DLC Mii outfits, so it’s cool. I’m going to have to see a source for the Iwata, Miyamoto, Reggie thing though. That would have been kind of crazy so it’s a bit hard to believe.
 
Last edited:

Opossum

Thread Title Changer
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
33,447
Location
This Thread
NNID
OpossumGuy
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
If it meant we could have had DLC outfits for existing characters instead of Miis, I’d have personally been happier with it but I get why a lot of people love the crossover appeal of DLC Mii outfits, so it’s cool. I’m going to have to see a source for the Iwata, Miyamoto, Reggie thing though. That would have been kind of crazy so it’s a bit hard to believe.
Here you go.

Reggie Fils-Aime, Shigeru Miyamoto, and Satoru Iwata: “I don’t think the inclusion of these characters would be very interesting to a wide audience. For the amount of effort involved, I would actually prefer to add another roster character. As it takes a lot of work to add a character to the game, it’s not a decision that can be taken lightly.”
The context was about why he'd chosen the Miis over Nintendo staff, which was a decently common fan request at the time (Reggie in particular in the west), and that he'd hoped playable Miis would help scratch that particular itch.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,967
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Here you go.


The context was about why he'd chosen the Miis over Nintendo staff, which was a decently common fan request at the time (Reggie in particular in the west), and that he'd hoped playable Miis would help scratch that particular itch.
Reggie was one of the first Mii fighters showcased in that reveal I remember.

I still don't like these characters honestly, but I can get the idea behind them. They'd be amongst the first to go if I was in charge
 

HyperSomari64

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
2,988
Location
Lima, Peru
Just like how there's different versions of Goku, with Nintendo having their own version, so he's obviously not ruled out.
It is like Castlevania's Count Dracula. Yes, the original Bram Stcker novel entered the public domain in 1962 in the U.S.A, so Konami (a Japanese company) could re-arrange it's mythos for a Famicom Disk System game. Just like how Sun Wukong legend got remade in different ways through the ages (there was an animated movie released some years ago with Jackie Chan providing the voice of the Monkey King)

When the original Witcher novels enters the PD in whatever years are required by Poland's copyright rules, it's not the time to see Geralt in this game.
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,275
It is like Castlevania's Count Dracula. Yes, the original Bram Stcker novel entered the public domain in 1962 in the U.S.A, so Konami (a Japanese company) could re-arrange it's mythos for a Famicom Disk System game. Just like how Sun Wukong legend got remade in different ways through the ages (there was an animated movie released some years ago with Jackie Chan providing the voice of the Monkey King)

When the original Witcher novels enters the PD in whatever years are required by Poland's copyright rules, it's not the time to see Geralt in this game.
Even then, that specific version of Geralt would still be owned by CD Project Red.
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
21,131
Location
Scotland
Reggie was one of the first Mii fighters showcased in that reveal I remember.

I still don't like these characters honestly, but I can get the idea behind them. They'd be amongst the first to go if I was in charge
i think we all know which characters will be the first to go if we were in charge
 

Chuderz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
472
So... I think the Y-button is the superior place for defaulting shield to...

It's just so much more convenient there. I think it's also worthy of a main positioning spot on the default layout considering it's used for techs, quick rolls, spotdodges, airdodges and well shielding and additionally Shield-Special if you're Inkling or the Minecrafters. If Shield-Specials were ever universal this would also be an extremely well-placed button position because it'd be extremely intuitive and natural to just lay one's thumb across both the B (special) and Y (shield in this case) buttons both to activate the Shield-Special.

Personally I think assigning the jump function to Y AND X is just unintuitive and just flat-out bad game design especially when you factor in the idea that in order to activate the short hop shortcut in this game you have to press 2 jump buttons at the same time. Hopefully in the next Smash game there'll be a dedicated short hop button and a full hop button each and while that'd improve this bad game design somewhat this positioning (jump being Y and X both) would still ultimately remain bad game design when you factor in the idea that you oftentimes are doing aerial attacks and specials while in the air which makes dedicating all that to just your right thumb very unintuitive and just overly convoluted and this is all just so completely unnecessary.

I guess this is where the devs think tap-jump's utility comes into play and while I'll acknowledge that players the world over have gotten used to this set up I still have nothing nice to say about tap-jump and I'm someone that used it all the way well into Ultimate as it's what I remembered from Melee. It's actually something I'd like the Melee community to agree on allowing to be done away with through modding. This is because when you factor in Up-Tilts and just overall hectic left-stick character movement stuff then tap-jump just becomes a stupid burden. Also for the fact that again this interferes with directional Special-Inputs (things I'd mentioned you'll very oftentimes be doing in the air) and additionally it's also your fast falling control making tap-jump just so overwhelmingly counterproductive.

I think Sakurai has it backward with regard to where these buttons ought to be. Jump should be both the triggers and shields should be X and Y. Though as a quick aside in my perfect world though X would be a universal counter system akin to grab that could also be done while in the air.

The final question with regard to the consequences of my proposal here is also considering what to do about allowing players to move their shields around while shielding. Currently you have to either have 2 shield-inputs simultaneously held in order to allow for the player character to do this without rolling or if you play any character other than Inkling and the Minecrafters (in which case the former is your only option for this) you can actually just use your empty Shield-Special to accomplish this. I'd obviously love to see Shield-Special universally implemented but I also hate redundant inputs so I'm kind of at a catch 22 here. Obviously taking for granted my Y-button shield-input placement means that ideally any real solution to this problem would involve the left-hand for this action considering your right-hand would be preoccupied with holding down the shield-input. Also presuming universal Shield-Specials did get implemented I guess there is still a solution but it's probably a little weirdish.

Oh well here it goes maybe the D-Pad would be a good fit here? It currently does nothing while shielding (when it's set to taunts obviously) and let's acknowledge that the D-Pad is kind of an afterthought when it comes to Smash which is actually a shame. I'll get more into that in another post but it being used for taunts right now is about the best you could realistically expect of it. Anyway so what if while holding down shield-input the D-Pad could be used to move your shield around? I think the fluidity of a joystick could be very well simulated and it's not like gamers have never rolled their thumb around a D-Pad before for a similar effect. With this setup it'd allow the player to utilize the right-hand for shielding and the left-hand for maneuverability of the shield and thereby eliminating the need for redundant 2nd shield-input being mapped to the controller. It'd also give the D-Pad a more prominent role in the actual fighting which I think would be very cool.

Also this is a completely seperate rant that I'll try to get through quickly. Why aren't your Side-Specials and Down-Special immediately actionable out of shield like Up-Special is? Hell if we can't have universal Shield-Specials you might as well at least let us use our Neutral-Special in the same way obviously ignoring the fact that it's currently used for moving your shield for all cast members minus Inkling and Minecrafters. Having Side-Special roll and Down-Special spotdodge is completely redundant and unnecessary when simply moving your joystick alone in the relevant direction does both of those things. Just bad design flat-out. I'd love 2 extra out-of-shield options please and thank you very much.

Thanks to anyone that read this and considered the arguments. I got into a lot of this stuff in my movement expansion ideas post in my signature. Always just like to throw that out there.
 
Last edited:

SPEN18

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
2,046
Location
MI, USA
I think that things like Dr. Kawashima and the Codename STEAM Abe Lincoln are fine. They are distinguished as follows:

(1) though based on real people, they are very obviously fictionalized, nonrealistic videogame versions of those people;

(2) the versions of these characters that we have gotten and would get in Smash going forward are exclusively based on their videogame appearances, with their actions and abilities almost exclusively based on those same videogame appearances (aside from sharing a likeness with their real-world counterparts, which in these cases is severely disfigured and cartoonized anyway);

(3) if they appear in or are heavily associated to other popular fictionalized media like TV, movies, comics, books, etc., then in those other media their appearances, characterizations, etc. are heavily distinct from the videogame versions OR those other media appearances are completely derivative of the videogame ones;

(4) (and this one is the least grey qualifier, which makes it the strongest IMO) they appear in Nintendo-published games, with plot- and/or gameplay-relevant roles in those games (beyond things like cameos or, even more innocuously, things like being able to design a custom character that looks sorta like them).

This is not meant to be an exhaustive list or a set of rigid qualifying criteria (I probably missed something lol), but the thing is that there are very, very few "grey area" characters that would satisfy all of this, especially (4). What is there even to consider that would have a serious chance at Smash if eligible? Dr. Wright from SimCity? The next step up I think would be like Nintendogs and then maybe 007.

----

I will echo what I have said in the past: if we focus on Nintendo-published videogames (or at the very least, games exclusive to Nintendo platforms) then there is very little grey area to consider; under that paradigm, it is reasonably practical to consider dubious cases individually since they are so few in number. This approach is perhaps even more favorable than well-defining some specific criteria (as I kinda tried, and probably failed, to do above).
 
Last edited:

Ivander

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
10,296
Actually, now I'm curious: how "recent" is Fate able to get with its Servants? Like, I doubt they have any "modern" historical figures, but what's their cutoff point?

Also, I'd suggest talking Fate in Smash, but everytime we do people bring up the first game's... problems.
I mean, Fate's Grail system is capable of getting Servants from the future.

But I think the youngest "recent" Servants that Fate has done "officially" are Sherlock Holmes and James Moriarty. There are other Servants from the 1800s like Thomas Edison, Helena Blavatsky, Nikola Tesla, Florence Nightingale, Randolph Carter, Li Shuwen, etc, but I think in terms of "birth date", Li Shuwen is the youngest non-fictional human Servant while Holmes and Moriarty are the youngest fictional human Servants.
And I say human because in terms of the actual youngest Servant, that would be Voyager 1. Yes, the space probe is a Servant. The reasoning being that in his first appearance, Fate/Requiem, the plot takes place during or after 2025, the year Voyager 1 is powered down/dies.

But that said, this is more on Servants who've gotten an actual confirmation and showcase. The youngest human Servant, if going by references and very short appearances, would in fact be Neil Armstrong the Astronaut. And yes, he does make a very short appearance in the Fate/Extra anime. He never talks. You just see his astronaut outfit. Which could imply any astronaut, but he was referenced ahead of time in the Fate/Extra game as simply "Armstrong" and I think it mentioned his space shuttle. Add 2 and 2 together and you know they are talking about that Armstrong.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 31, 2018
Messages
1,057
So... I think the Y-button is the superior place for defaulting shield to...

It's just so much more convenient there. I think it's also worthy of a main positioning spot on the default layout considering it's used for techs, quick rolls, spotdodges, airdodges and well shielding and additionally Shield-Special if you're Inkling or the Minecrafters. If Shield-Specials were ever universal this would also be an extremely well-placed button position because it'd be extremely intuitive and natural to just lay one's thumb across both the B (special) and Y (shield in this case) buttons both to activate the Shield-Special.

Personally I think assigning the jump function to Y AND X is just unintuitive and just flat-out bad game design especially when you factor in the idea that in order to activate the short hop shortcut in this game you have to press 2 jump buttons at the same time. Hopefully in the next Smash game there'll be a dedicated short hop button and a full hop button each and while that'd improve this bad game design somewhat this positioning (jump being Y and X both) would still ultimately remain bad game design when you factor in the idea that you oftentimes are doing aerial attacks and specials while in the air which makes dedicating all that to just your right thumb very unintuitive and just overly convoluted and this is all just so completely unnecessary.

I guess this is where the devs think tap-jump's utility comes into play and while I'll acknowledge that players the world over have gotten used to this set up I still have nothing nice to say about tap-jump and I'm someone that used it all the way well into Ultimate as it's what I remembered from Melee. It's actually something I'd like the Melee community to agree on allowing to be done away with through modding. This is because when you factor in Up-Tilts and just overall hectic left-stick character movement stuff then tap-jump just becomes a stupid burden. Also for the fact that again this interferes with directional Special-Inputs (things I'd mentioned you'll very oftentimes be doing in the air) and additionally it's also your fast falling control making tap-jump just so overwhelmingly counterproductive.

I think Sakurai has it backward with regard to where these buttons ought to be. Jump should be both the triggers and shields should be X and Y. Though as a quick aside in my perfect world though X would be a universal counter system akin to grab that could also be done while in the air.

The final question with regard to the consequences of my proposal here is also considering what to do about allowing players to move their shields around while shielding. Currently you have to either have 2 shield-inputs simultaneously held in order to allow for the player character to do this without rolling or if you play any character other than Inkling and the Minecrafters (in which case the former is your only option for this) you can actually just use your empty Shield-Special to accomplish this. I'd obviously love to see Shield-Special universally implemented but I also hate redundant inputs so I'm kind of at a catch 22 here. Obviously taking for granted my Y-button shield-input placement means that ideally any real solution to this problem would involve the left-hand for this action considering your right-hand would be preoccupied with holding down the shield-input. Also presuming universal Shield-Specials did get implemented I guess there is still a solution but it's probably a little weirdish.

Oh well here it goes maybe the D-Pad would be a good fit here? It currently does nothing while shielding (when it's set to taunts obviously) and let's acknowledge that the D-Pad is kind of an afterthought when it comes to Smash which is actually a shame. I'll get more into that in another post but it being used for taunts right now is about the best you could realistically expect of it. Anyway so what if while holding down shield-input the D-Pad could be used to move your shield around? I think the fluidity of a joystick could be very well simulated and it's not like gamers have never rolled their thumb around a D-Pad before for a similar effect. With this setup it'd allow the player to utilize the right-hand for shielding and the left-hand for maneuverability of the shield and thereby eliminating the need for redundant 2nd shield-input being mapped to the controller. It'd also give the D-Pad a more prominent role in the actual fighting which I think would be very cool.

Also this is a completely seperate rant that I'll try to get through quickly. Why aren't your Side-Specials and Down-Special immediately actionable out of shield like Up-Special is? Hell if we can't have universal Shield-Specials you might as well at least let us use our Neutral-Special in the same way obviously ignoring the fact that it's currently used for moving your shield for all cast members minus Inkling and Minecrafters. Having Side-Special roll and Down-Special spotdodge is completely redundant and unnecessary when simply moving your joystick alone in the relevant direction does both of those things. Just bad design flat-out. I'd love 2 extra out-of-shield options please and thank you very much.

Thanks to anyone that read this and considered the arguments. I got into a lot of this stuff in my movement expansion ideas post in my signature. Always just like to throw that out there.
My personal guess is that tap-jump exists because it's the same input that is used in traditional fighting games like Street Fighter or KoF. I agree it's awful in Smash, though I have seen arguments that it can be good for specific characters like Meta Knight.

As someone who played Brawl on a Wiimote, I've got to tell you that jump is way less precise on triggers than face buttons. Consistently timing slightly out-of-sync button presses with a thumb and forefinger is a struggle. If there was an attempt at the short-hop problem, I'd like to see the short-hop window extended an extra frame. That would mean full-hops would need the same initial jump momentum as short-hops or jumps would have to come out 1 frame slower, but it would make the input easier. Less input delay might make it easier, too, since the screen would match up with people's fingers more. Pressing a button less time to jump less high is pretty common and makes sense. It just needs to be a little easier to pull off so people don't need shortcuts to do it.

I do find the button placement for roll and grab unintuitive, so what I always do for my custom controls is put shield on the left (now roll is all done with the left hand) and grab on the right (all offensive maneuvers are on the right hand). If there was a dash button I'd also put it on the left, and final smash would be on the right if that ever gets its own button (I don't know why it hasn't, tbh). I have to change the grab button in literally every fighting game though, so it might just be me.

I actually don't care for out-of-shield specials (I think they make both offense and defense less thoughtful), so I'd rather go the other direction. That said, I think it's less that side-B while shielding causes a roll, and more that hitting a direction while shielding causes a roll and the B button does nothing in those instances. Side specials out of shield would mean stacking a roll and a special on some of the same inputs, and cause accidental rolls when timing isn't perfect. I suppose you could change how rolls work, but I don't see how they could be any more intuitive than they currently are.

Something that might help some of this stuff is if the game allowed people to customize their controls without leaving character select. Some of those issues like tap-jump and not liking where shield is placed would be a lot less intrusive if the game let you change button layout on the fly, even if the game didn't change them by default.
 

DarthEnderX

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
7,661
Even then, that specific version of Geralt would still be owned by CD Project Red.
No, it isn't. CD Project Red merely licensed gaming rights for The Witcher from Andrzej Sapkowski. Nintendo would have to pay him no matter which interpretation of Geralt they use.
 
Last edited:

Opossum

Thread Title Changer
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
33,447
Location
This Thread
NNID
OpossumGuy
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
Reggie was one of the first Mii fighters showcased in that reveal I remember.

I still don't like these characters honestly, but I can get the idea behind them. They'd be amongst the first to go if I was in charge
For me it's tough because I love the Miis, but greatly dislike the direction they took with them in Smash. If I could rework any character on the roster from the ground up, it would be the Miis, no questions asked, even ahead of commonly requested reworks like Samus or Ganondorf.

I absolutely get the concept they were going for, that being a Create A Character with three selectable base movesets (one close range, one mid range, one long range) and a further customizable set of special moves (with three options for each input), ultimately symbolizing the base concept of the Miis, being creatable avatar characters.

The issue is that that approach strips them of any and all personality that they had in their own games.

Miis, contrary to the beliefs of their detractors, weren't literal husks devoid of personality, serving only as a blank slate for the player. They did have consistent personality traits. They're quirky weirdos with numerous hobbies and pastimes. They have swordplay showdowns inside volcanoes and bonk each other with plastic swords. They are warriors with special powers based on their shirt colors. Their idea of surviving a zombie apocalypse is to beat the zombies up with Wii remotes and suitcases. They ride cows for fun. They'll dance around a Virtual Boy and proclaim it their savior. They squirm around like bugs if you pick them up by the head, and then march in an impromptu parade. They're really bad at parking.

And pretty much none of this appears in their Smash iterations. They didn't even have voices until Ultimate! How is there no Wii Sports Boxing alt for Brawler? Or the Wii Sports Resort Swordplay uniform for Swordfighter? For all intents and purposes, the Smash versions aren't characters. They're purely their weapon of choice, and this is reflected in their movesets. In an attempt to represent their flexibility and spontaneity, the Miis were cast into dull rigidity.

Some folks tend to groan at "grab bag" movesets, like the kinds Mr. Game & Watch and Villager have, and oftentimes it's for good reason. Cohesion is generally preferable. But if there were any characters who 100% should have gone with the grab bag approach, it's the Miis. It's a core part of their identity. A single moveset for them that actually pulls from their games would, to me, be immensely preferable to what we have now. Between Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Sports Resort, Wii Music, Wii Party, StreetPass Mii Plaza, Tomodachi Life, Miitopia, and even Nintendoland, there's so much to pull from that would show the Miis off so much better. You could even keep the gimmick of customizable specials, coming from an assortment of these games instead, all while also consolidating the Miis into a single base moveset that actually fits them.

It's just a shame that Nintendo's insistent on putting everything Mii related behind them as of late, culminating in the horrible decision to replace them as the mascots of Switch Sports in favor of the soulless Sportsmates and relegating the Miis to the status of barely-advertised alternatives. For a long while they were as synonymous with Nintendo as Mario was, a core part of their brand identity. But because the Wii U was a monumentally disastrous flop, they decided to throw the baby out with the bath water.

So it just sucks that there's legitimately a higher chance of playable Miis being gone entirely in the next Smash than them being reworked to the extent I'd wish for them to be.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,024
As far as fourth party characters in Smash, my take has always been that there's so many purely video game figures (even just Nintendo ones) that have still yet to be in Smash that ones outside it don't feel it as necessary, Moreover the concept of Nintendo vs. the likes of Toei, Marvel, DC, Disney, WB, etc feels novel enough that it deserves its own series rather than occurring via SSB.
 
Top Bottom