Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Quillion]

its a rule of tpc to reference the latest gen and sakurai loves FE. So there’s more reason than just they need a “fresh face”

look at ultimates base roster did we get someone from xcx or echoes? Nope

Sakurai may love Fire Emblem but even he's getting tired of putting in so many characters from that series.

I'll need a source on TPC's rule about marketing the newest gen.

And even if both are true, they really need to stop.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think destroying the roster and starting over is the best approach. From a dev standpoint. Then as each (base) roster pick comes to life if it happens to be a returning character from previous Smash titles (playable or not) then bonus because assets and registrations that may come in handy, etc. If not big whoop it's a new game. Part of roster creation starts with the most expensive characters to license. After that it's easy to pad it with glee. And another true Survey please Nintendo!

 

[fogbadge]

Sakurai may love Fire Emblem but even he's getting tired of putting in so many characters from that series.

I'll need a source on TPC's rule about marketing the newest gen.

And even if both are true, they really need to stop.

oh you mean like when he said there were too many sword fighters while adding in another and before adding in 4 more?

have you seen anything to do with tpc?

 

[SPEN18]

look at ultimates base roster did we get someone from xcx or echoes? Nope

Echoes was just a remake and Gaiden is kinda historically below much of the FE series in terms of general notoriety, importance, and sales.

XCX is not part of the main trilogy, hence the "X" moniker. https://web.archive.org/web/2015101...6/13/xenoblade-chronicles-x-sequel-xenoblade/

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oh you mean like when he said there were too many sword fighters while adding in another and before adding in 4 more?

Your original argument was that "Sakurai loves FE" is the reason they seem to always add a recent FE protag. In the article linked by Quillion , Sakurai basically puts the onus on Nintendo, saying that it's not him who chose to add another FE character.

--

Also, IF we get a Xeno3 rep then it's Noah solo or bust for me! BUT I am also of the mind that we should see how the game actually does and ages first before auto-adding a rep for it.

 

[Quillion]

have you seen anything to do with tpc?

Nothing about it seems anything other than obligatory marketing for the newest game. They have to balance bringing in new fans and appealing to old fans after all.

Also, I still want that source on TPC's need for newer Pokémon in Smash.

I think destroying the roster and starting over is the best approach. From a dev standpoint. Then as each (base) roster pick comes to life if it happens to be a returning character from previous Smash titles (playable or not) then bonus because assets and registrations that may come in handy, etc. If not big whoop it's a new game. Part of roster creation starts with the most expensive characters to license. After that it's easy to pad it with glee. And another true Survey please Nintendo!

I don't think that will work either. I'd prefer that they leave all or the vast majority of the roster in (recycling models, animations, (maybe) coding to make it work). Then they can still build from there.

 

[Ivander]

Reminder that Roy came back and Chrom was added because they were heavily fan-demanded. Don't act like hardly anybody asks for Fire Emblem characters when most of them were added because they were really wanted. A Three Houses character was definitely wanted, just that most people expected them for Fighter Pass 2 and not Fighter Pass 1. Heck, Corrin was a big request by the Smash team itself as Sakurai mentioned that when he was hesitating to add Corrin due to the number of Fire Emblem characters getting noticeably higher, it was the team that asked and convinced him to still add Corrin.

Regardless of what people say about no one asking for Fire Emblem characters, most of them were added/brought back because they were heavily wanted. Fire Emblem has a noticeable fanbase, regardless of how many sour Smash players try to say otherwise.

 

[DarthEnderX]

well SE world doesnt revolve around FF

It absolutely does. 14 is basically keeping the company afloat.

So, I’m playing through the original Portal right now, and I’m left thinking that Chell would make for a great Mii Gunner costume.

Valve prefers to push Atlas and P-body.

 

[Quillion]

A Three Houses character was definitely wanted, just that most people expected them for Fighter Pass 2 and not Fighter Pass 1.

Makes me think: could the "obligatory fresh face" picks be exclusively reserved to a "late" DLC pack?

It would be nice if they picked Fire Emblem, Pokémon, and Xenoblade characters that continue to be popular long after their debuts like Lyn, Garchomp, and Elma, but that's probably a good decision for the base roster.

A "late" DLC pack would give them enough time to plan everything out and look at who's popular after their debut in newest games.

 

[fogbadge]

Echoes was just a remake and Gaiden is kinda historically below much of the FE series in terms of general notoriety, importance, and sales.

XCX is not part of the main trilogy, hence the "X" moniker. https://web.archive.org/web/2015101...6/13/xenoblade-chronicles-x-sequel-xenoblade/

and why would them not being as important as other matter? if the logic is the most recent game gets a new character then those games owuld have gotten characters

Your original argument was that "Sakurai loves FE" is the reason they seem to always add a recent FE protag. In the article linked by Quillion , Sakurai basically puts the onus on Nintendo, saying that it's not him who chose to add another FE character.
[/qoute]

you're over looking the 7 other fire emblem characters that were all down to him

Nothing about it seems anything other than obligatory marketing for the newest game. They have to balance bringing in new fans and appealing to old fans after all.

Also, I still want that source on TPC's need for newer Pokémon in Smash.

sakurai said something about always having to have a slot open for a new pokemon when he was talking about adding greninja and if you look at nearly every piece of pokemon stuff it focuses on the latest gen the only exceptions really being stuff made by 3rd parties who show a preferance for gen one which tpc also does

All The Super Smash Bros. Characters Were Decided Upon Early In Development - Siliconera

During a Q&A session at E3 this evening, Siliconera asked Masahiro Sakurai at what point Greninja was chosen to be included in Super Smash Bros.

web.archive.org

It absolutely does. 14 is basically keeping the company afloat.

why how badly the the nft thing backfire?

 

[SPEN18]

Reminder that Roy came back and Chrom was added because they were heavily fan-demanded. Don't act like hardly anybody asks for Fire Emblem characters when most of them were added because they were really wanted. A Three Houses character was definitely wanted, just that most people expected them for Fighter Pass 2 and not Fighter Pass 1. Heck, Corrin was a big request by the Smash team itself as Sakurai mentioned that when he was hesitating to add Corrin due to the number of Fire Emblem characters getting noticeably higher, it was the team that asked and convinced him to still add Corrin.

Regardless of what people say about no one asking for Fire Emblem characters, most of them were added/brought back because they were heavily wanted. Fire Emblem has a noticeable fanbase, regardless of how many sour Smash players try to say otherwise.

True, but even still, bringing back Roy and adding Chrom were at least questionable decisions. Demand has to be weighed against other considerations, especially what other content items could get more resources directed to them.

Don't get me wrong: out of all the series on the roster, FE has given me some of the fondest of memories. But this "everybody's happy scenario" where we bring everyone back every time and also keep adding the most recent protags approaches unhealthy and irresponsible resource direction.

 

[Quillion]

you're over looking the 7 other fire emblem characters that were all down to him

That just means that even Sakurai has limits.

sakurai said something about always having to have a slot open for a new pokemon when he was talking about adding greninja and if you look at nearly every piece of pokemon stuff it focuses on the latest gen the only exceptions really being stuff made by 3rd parties who show a preferance for gen one which tpc also does

Like I said, that's just obligatory marketing for the newest game.

And that source says that slot wasn't reserved for a newer Pokémon at the time, just that it was reserved for a Pokémon.

 

[chocolatejr9]

It absolutely does. 14 is basically keeping the company afloat.

Valve prefers to push Atlas and P-body.

Why do I have the sudden urge to write a fanfic about Blizzard trying to sabotoge FF14 as payback for taking all the WOW players, but they keep failing Looney Tunes-style?

Unrelated, but I found a rare instance of a game dev NOT wanting their game in Smash:

No: I'm more of a FNF kinda guy.

I've seen the best minds of my generation destroyed by Smash. pic.twitter.com/XPkVQ4lUhG

— Wishlist Dread Weight on Steam! (@DeerDreamStudio) July 9, 2022

(For anybody wondering, Cooking Companions is a visual novel game that's sorta like DDLC, but with cooking and folklore instead of literature and data-manipulation (I know that's not the BEST comparison, but it's the best I can come up with). Don't know why they felt the need to bring up FNF, though).

 

[SPEN18]

and why would them not being as important as other matter? if the logic is the most recent game gets a new character then those games owuld have gotten characters

Because they're not properly brand new mainline games. History has shown that these are less likely to get explicitly promoted by a dedicated PC.

The "7 other FE characters" thing: if it was on Sakurai before, then he's claiming that it's not on him anymore.

And that source says that slot wasn't reserved for a newer Pokémon at the time, just that it was reserved for a Pokémon.

It's very likely that the slot was indeed reserved for a newer Pokemon, but the issue is that I've seen no strong evidence that TPC specifically is the reason why newer mons might get prioritized. We have no concrete evidence that they wouldn't be okay with a Garchomp or a Gardevoir if the roster deciders asked for them.

 

[Sucumbio]

I don't think that will work either. I'd prefer that they leave all or the vast majority of the roster in (recycling models, animations, (maybe) coding to make it work). Then they can still build from there.

Sure that's another choice. To me this remains as unanswered: Will the next Smash be a sequel, reboot or spiritual successor?

Either way the base roster is high priority for devs to agree upon before going balls out making them playable. As such it's technically always the first thing in each Smash game to date. 64 was the original and each since has been a sequel with brawl becoming the new look and 4 the new engine and ultimate being the best game ever. Or so some say.

So in this sense the next game will either reboot/rebuild or be another sequel. I think everyone has pretty much sided with the sequel route, me I'd like a fresh start.

 

[Quillion]

So in this sense the next game will either reboot/rebuild or be another sequel. I think everyone has pretty much sided with the sequel route, me I'd like a fresh start.

I feel like the only thing a "fresh start" has going for it is having big updates to the older characters' movesets, given that the long-runners in Smash have accumulated so many things since their respective debuts and fans want to see those newer abilities in Smash.

Even then, I think implementing some kind of alternate moveset option for some of the older characters (not all, since most characters don't have enough source material for them) would do that job even better, keeping the established movesets as they are while implementing an alternative for those who want it.

The main question though is whether those alternate movesets should be almost-fully customizable (choose normal set and assign different specials to each special input) or those alternate movesets should be fixed, tailored alternatives.

 

[fogbadge]

That just means that even Sakurai has limits.



Like I said, that's just obligatory marketing for the newest game.

And that source says that slot wasn't reserved for a newer Pokémon at the time, just that it was reserved for a Pokémon.

How does that prove he has his limits? The last time he was in charge of picking characters je

the point was just because tpc does something doesn’t mean the rest of Nintendo does

Because they're not properly brand new mainline games. History has shown that these are less likely to get explicitly promoted by a dedicated PC.

The "7 other FE characters" thing: if it was on Sakurai before, then he's claiming that it's not on him anymore.



It's very likely that the slot was indeed reserved for a newer Pokemon, but the issue is that I've seen no strong evidence that TPC specifically is the reason why newer mons might get prioritized. We have no concrete evidence that they wouldn't be okay with a Garchomp or a Gardevoir if the roster deciders asked for them.

nope I’m fairly certain echoes counts as mainline

Considering we’ve only had two character cycles without him picking, you may be jumping the gun with that statement

well look at all the other stuff tpc is in charge of, they’re always pushing the latest gen. But the rest of Nintendos stuff isn’t like that

 

[Quillion]

How does that prove he has his limits?

The "7 other FE characters" thing: if it was on Sakurai before, then he's claiming that it's not on him anymore.

They may not be anyone else's limits, but they're limits.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I feel like the only thing a "fresh start" has going for it is having big updates to the older characters' movesets, given that the long-runners in Smash have accumulated so many things since their respective debuts and fans want to see those newer abilities in Smash.

Even then, I think implementing some kind of alternate moveset option for some of the older characters (not all, since most characters don't have enough source material for them) would do that job even better, keeping the established movesets as they are while implementing an alternative for those who want it.

The main question though is whether those alternate movesets should be almost-fully customizable (choose normal set and assign different specials to each special input) or those alternate movesets should be fixed, tailored alternatives.

I'd be down for a Smash sequel that greatly emphasized customization of all types. Far deeper Mii creation, much more detailed stage maker, create your own spirit battles, user generated Break the Targets, and so forth. Alternative/customized movesets could be a solid part of that, even if online play might have to be tailored for balance in certain respects.

 

[Quillion]

I'd be down for a Smash sequel that greatly emphasized customization of all types. Far deeper Mii creation, much more detailed stage maker, create your own spirit battles, user generated Break the Targets, and so forth. Alternative/customized movesets could be a solid part of that, even if online play might have to be tailored for balance in certain respects.

Unquestionably, it could work for alternate costumes. We could dress up Mario in all of his Odyssey outfits and Link in whatever outfit he gets in some newer game.

But someone ( ahemtoday IIRC) did bring up a good point about too much customization for moves: it would give some players "analysis paralysis": giving them way too many options at once and therefore becoming overwhelming.

Moveset customization would probably need some kind of way to ease players in if they're going all-out with it.

 

[SPEN18]

nope I’m fairly certain echoes counts as mainline

Most people count it as a mainline title but it's not "brand new mainline."

well look at all the other stuff tpc is in charge of, they’re always pushing the latest gen

That's not concrete evidence that TPC wouldn't allow an oldgen mon as a newcomer, especially in the scenario where the Smash team is asking to add one. At best it is a small point in favor of them preferring a newgen mon, and it's hard to gauge how strong that preference may be if it exists at all.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Given TPC's propensity for remakes, for all we know an older Pokemon in Smash could line up with their newest release anyway.

 

[Quillion]

Given TPC's propensity for remakes, for all we know an older Pokemon in Smash could line up with their newest release anyway.

That will likely reinforce which older Pokémon is already popular rather than make less popular ones more.

So it could still line up with the "wait and see" ideal that should apply to these "rotating cast" franchises.

 

[fogbadge]

Most people count it as a mainline title but it's not "brand new mainline."

That sounds like nitpicking

That's not concrete evidence that TPC wouldn't allow an oldgen mon as a newcomer, especially in the scenario where the Smash team is asking to add one. At best it is a small point in favor of them preferring a newgen mon, and it's hard to gauge how strong that preference may be if it exists at all.

I never said they wouldn’t allow older Pokemon I said they prefer to use older. Although it is worth noting the only time a Pokemon from a new gen got in it was from gen 1

and nobody can deny gen 1 gets special treatment

 

[Sucumbio]

The main question though is whether those alternate movesets should be almost-fully customizable (choose normal set and assign different specials to each special input) or those alternate movesets should be fixed, tailored alternatives.

Yes to new moves and looks.

I prefer no customs but I respect your opinion... I'd prefer the same soft approach to mechanics with advanced techniques available but limited to the point where it's not impassible.

 

[SPEN18]

Given TPC's propensity for remakes, for all we know an older Pokemon in Smash could line up with their newest release anyway.

Or either trigger or happily coincide with an effort to promote that old mon in a newer gen, like they did with Gardevoir being the champion's signature mon as well as a dual representative of the new Fairy type and Mega Evos in gen 6.

And I'm going to add to my last post that Pokemon also prioritizes older mons in rosters for spinoffs like Pokken or Unite. Those rosters are actually fairly balanced across all gens, which even stands in contrast to something like the first FE Warriors, whose roster was almost exclusively Archanea and Fateswakening. TPC went out of their way to allow Garchomp, Gardevoir, Blaziken, Weavile, etc. in Pokken, for example, when they could have very easily just filled the roster with gen 1 and newgen mons.

 

[Quillion]

Yes to new moves and looks.

I prefer no customs but I respect your opinion... I'd prefer the same soft approach to mechanics with advanced techniques available but limited to the point where it's not impassible.

Do you mean fixed new moves and looks?

That would be rather alienating y'know? It would also be nonsensical since they have the resources to build on top of what's already there instead of start from scratch.

 

[Sucumbio]

Do you mean fixed new moves and looks?

That would be rather alienating y'know? It would also be nonsensical since they have the resources to build on top of what's already there instead of start from scratch.

I do! And yep. I know lol it's not logical but ... It's Nintendo. I always wait and see.

 

[SPEN18]

That sounds like nitpicking

It's not nitpicking. Echoes was a remake, which is a big deal for its prospects of getting a dedicated Smash rep.

I never said they wouldn’t allow older Pokemon I said they prefer to use older

You said, "its a rule of tpc to reference the latest gen." That wording makes it sound like you're saying TPC is a big part of the reason that Smash newcomers have heavily favored newgen mons over older ones. I don't see any strong evidence of that being the case.

 

[Quillion]

I do! And yep. I know lol it's not logical but ... It's Nintendo. I always wait and see.

Eh. Either way, I hope next Smash will give us legitimate new ways to play with old characters while keeping the original somehow.

I really don't like Bowser's Smash 4-on wrestler revamp nor Link's half-done BotW revamp, but I am pretty bored of playing with mostly the same moves Mario and Kirby have had for decades.

 

[fogbadge]

It's not nitpicking. Echoes was a remake, which is a big deal for its prospects of getting a dedicated Smash rep.
You said, "its a rule of tpc to reference the latest gen." That wording makes it sound like you're saying TPC is a big part of the reason that Smash newcomers have heavily favored newgen mons over older ones. I don't see any strong evidence of that being the case.

Yeah a remake that was quite hyped up like it was a new game.

every single game we get a Pokémon from the latest gen. If it’s not down to tpc then it’s down to sak

 

[Geno Boost]

Meanwhile in alternative timeline

 

[SPEN18]

Yeah a remake that was quite hyped up like it was a new game.

No, Echoes was a late-lifecycle game for the 3DS and some fans complained about the lack of marketing for it. Actually, there was even concern from older fans that poor performance for the game would push IS to double back down on all the aspects of Fates and Awakening that the old guard disliked.

every single game we get a Pokémon from the latest gen. If it’s not down to tpc then it’s down to sak

Yeah, I wasn't disputing that there is a pattern of getting newgen mons every game...but I don't want that pattern to continue. I also think it's unhealthy for fans to be huddled into speculating exclusively on flavors of the month when, without the barrier of perceived likelihoods, people would otherwise be able to root more freely for whatever mon they think has merit, new or old.

 

[Ivander]

Don't get me wrong: out of all the series on the roster, FE has given me some of the fondest of memories. But this "everybody's happy scenario" where we bring everyone back every time and also keep adding the most recent protags approaches unhealthy and irresponsible resource direction.

I mean, in Three Houses case, you either were going to get Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri or Claude, all of whom are main characters. Part of Smash Ultimate was also about picking fan-favourite characters and if you look at the 1st Party DLC picks, Pyra & Mythra were very popular, Min-Min was the most popular ARMS character and all 4 Three Houses main characters, including Byleth, are popular in their franchise's fanbase.

Corrin was very much chosen for their dragon abilities and dragons and manaketes are a major part of Fire Emblem. And fans have certainly asked for more elements to be represented for Fire Emblem in Smash Bros. And compared to other manaketes, Corrin was the only one who could manifest parts of their dragon body for attacks and whatnot, whereas other Manaketes couldn't or could only manifest wings.
Not to mention Corrin's scenario was either they got in or they don't get in. Smash 4's DLC was the only chance Corrin was ever going to get in, basically the opposite of ARMS and Xenoblade 2's scenarios where they were too early to get in base game. In Fates' case, it had already come out in Japan around half-a-year before their DLC was announced.
And we don't even know if there would've been another character who would've taken Corrin's place had they not been chosen. There was no guarantee that Echoes was going to get a character for Ultimate if Corrin wasn't in beforehand and there's no guarantee another character would've been in their DLC spot. After Cloud, it could've been only Bayonetta. Sakurai has not made a mention of any other characters looked at for DLC, including Smash 4 DLC.
So it's quite possible it's either we got Corrin or we didn't get anybody, much like how not having Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina wouldn't suddenly give us other characters.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Meanwhile in alternative timeline

Words cannot describe how amazing this is. I unironically want Senator Armstrong in Smash now.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, I wasn't disputing that there is a pattern of getting newgen mons every game...but I don't want that pattern to continue. I also think it's unhealthy for fans to be huddled into speculating exclusively on flavors of the month when, without the barrier of perceived likelihoods, people would otherwise be able to root more freely for whatever mon they think has merit, new or old.

this from the user who keeps saying some characters only get in to promote new games

 

[Quillion]

this from the user who keeps saying some characters only get in to promote new games

And he says he wants the pattern to stop (I do too); what's even the point of this response?

 

[fogbadge]

And he says he wants the pattern to stop (I do too); what's even the point of this response?

sunshine my whole point was that the idea of promoting recent games is untrue because it always goes back to fire emblem which is hard to take as a coincidence.

and if you think anything stifles smash speculation the you are quite mistaken. Not long ago this thread was discussing the merits of fourth party inclusion despite sakurai repeatedly saying no.

 

[chocolatejr9]

sunshine my whole point was that the idea of promoting recent games is untrue because it always goes back to fire emblem which is hard to take as a coincidence.

and if you think anything stifles smash speculation the you are quite mistaken. Not long ago this thread was discussing the merits of fourth party inclusion despite sakurai repeatedly saying no.

In my defense, Captain N and Nestor have the advantage of being owned by Nintendo, the latter even getting his own game.

...on the Virtual Boy...

 

[fogbadge]

In my defense, Captain N and Nestor have the advantage of being owned by Nintendo, the latter even getting his own game.

...on the Virtual Boy...

well that was always my point as to why it ain’t happening as no non video game characters owned by Nintendo/made by sakurai have yet to get in

 

[Quillion]

sunshine my whole point was that the idea of promoting recent games is untrue because it always goes back to fire emblem which is hard to take as a coincidence.

But every Smash we also get Pokémon from the most recent gen released at that time.

If when you mean "recent", you mean released within a year or so of the corresponding Smash's release date or afterwards, then yes, it would go back to Fire Emblem. But I thought this argument was about all of the franchises that have rotating casts, not just Fire Emblem.

and if you think anything stifles smash speculation the you are quite mistaken. Not long ago this thread was discussing the merits of fourth party inclusion despite sakurai repeatedly saying no.

Nothing's going to stop speculation; even Sakurai's statements will generate speculation on whether he's going to break them later or not.

The pattern of "most recent character" for every "rotating cast" franchise is just something that needs to end by next installments.