Newbie question: does Samus have short hop?

[QuickRat]

I started to play as Samus Aran in PM these days... but I cannot perform a short hop while playing as her. It's kind of painful since I cannot make a Z-air correctly to attack a standing enemy.

 

[pooch182]

She has a really high short hop. Samus' jump squat is 3 frames, so if you have trouble short hopping as Fox, you can practice as him to get better visual feedback.

 

[Anuran]

I started to play as Samus Aran in PM these days... but I cannot perform a short hop while playing as her. It's kind of painful since I cannot make a Z-air correctly to attack a standing enemy.

This question is actually hilarious because her short hop is so bad... well its bad in some ways; let me explain. Her short hop is what allows for missile canceling which is amazing but its really bad for SHFFL (her's is like none existent). As far as the Zair goes I would suggest watching some esam videos and watch how he does it. short hop >airdodge forward halfway through the jump >zair gives the full range right above the ground with little landing lag. Hope this helps
esam : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhRmrOOQgv4

 

[Anuran]

also (sorry for the double post mods) I found a video that better demonstrates proper zair use http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJgK7xxMsg

 

[pooch182]

Point of clarification: you don't need to air dodge forwards. Retreating zairs are a great tool, and even just air dodging in place into a zair can be very effective.

 

[Litt]

She has a really high short hop. Samus' jump squat is 3 frames, so if you have trouble short hopping as Fox, you can practice as him to get better visual feedback.

4 frames in melee, 5 in PM...

 

[Narpas_sword]

Pretty sure it's 3 in melee, 4 in PM.

From what I saw in the psa anyway

 

[Chevy]

It's 3 frames of jump squat in both. In Melee you only get 2 of those to short hop with, it's been fixed in PM to be all 3.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Hm, interesting, i knew melee has a bug where you lose a frame, but thought they were both 4 frames (therefore melee became 3)

 

[QuickRat]

So, she actually doesn't have a short hop, does she? That airdodge technique could work, let's practice with that! Thank you very much, guys.

By the way, what do you mean with "jump squat" and this frame-war?

 

[Narpas_sword]

yes she has a short hop.

It's just not MUCH shorter than her full jump.

Jump squat is the animation between standing and leavign the ground. Like when you jump IRL, you bend your knees into a squat to propel yourself from the ground.

same thing happens in smash. The frames are the length of time that animation takes. Different characters squat for different lengths.

 

[QuickRat]

yes she has a short hop.

It's just not MUCH shorter than her full jump.

Oh, OK. So there is, it's just the difference is less noticeable. Am I right?

Jump squat is the animation between standing and leavign the ground. Like when you jump IRL, you bend your knees into a squat to propel yourself from the ground.

same thing happens in smash. The frames are the length of time that animation takes. Different characters squat for different lengths.

Oh, thanks, I get it. So... is Samus' jump squat slow?

 

[Narpas_sword]

less noticeable than other characters yes.

however, It's very noticeable when you don't Short hop when you're trying to platform missile cancel.

And the opposite, samus, is in the group of fastest jump squats.

 

[QuickRat]

less noticeable than other characters yes.

however, It's very noticeable when you don't Short hop when you're trying to platform missile cancel.

And the opposite, samus, is in the group of fastest jump squats.

Ok, that makes sense. In any case, I think I'll discover all of this when I play deeper with Samus.

Thank you very much

 

[Litt]

It's 3 frames of jump squat in both. In Melee you only get 2 of those to short hop with, it's been fixed in PM to be all 3.

http://www.antd.org/ssbm/jump-speed-statistics-list/

Chevy you are are wrong... there is a 4 frame window for samus in melee... and in PM due to the 1 frame momemtum loss of brawls game engine it becomes 5... thats why its much harder to short hop with samus in melee than in PM and why you are also wrong

(Yes, it may be 3 frames they are in the squat animation, however the window to perform the action is caliculate to the first frame they become airborn... aka the 4th frame for character like... Fox and ...... SAMUS)

 

[Litt]

Hm, interesting, i knew melee has a bug where you lose a frame, but thought they were both 4 frames (therefore melee became 3)

No melee was actually 4... you can test this for yourself in debug mode when you advance the game frame by frame, its because of brawls game engine that the short hops are given an additional frame in pm, melee did not have a bug that made it 3 frames... 60 frames in 1 second, 3 frames = .05, 4 frames = .06667 seconds... referencing the table above... you have .0067 seconds to perform a short hop with fox/sheik/samus, ect... if you just simply play melee vs PM, you will notice a difference between the two in difficulty to short hop... ie, its easier in PM given the 1 frame buffer, so seriously people stop talking as if you know **** and.... listen to people who actually know ****.... arguing will just make you look like an incompetent player to the rest of the forum when proven wrong by data and facts

 

[Narpas_sword]

oh yea, i notice the difference. That doesn't tell me the time though =p

I was going by this:

and this:

http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-3-0-statistics-list-shff-speed-weight-falling-speed-etc.335019/

but now i've seen this:

http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/

So it looks like sources are confused. Apologies that all the ones i read were wrong.

And no, I can't test it myself in debug mode. I don't have debug mode.


Edit: Found this from the Dev Team

"Melee checks if you've released jump on the last frame of jump startup (3 for Fox), while brawl/PM check if you let go as you leave the ground (4 for Fox). Fox's jump startup is 3 regardless."

 

[Litt]

oh yea, i notice the difference. That doesn't tell me the time though =p

I was going by this:

and this:

http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-3-0-statistics-list-shff-speed-weight-falling-speed-etc.335019/

but now i've seen this:

http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/

So it looks like sources are confused. Apologies that all the ones i read were wrong.

And no, I can't test it myself in debug mode. I don't have debug mode.


Edit: Found this from the Dev Team

"Melee checks if you've released jump on the last frame of jump startup (3 for Fox), while brawl/PM check if you let go as you leave the ground (4 for Fox). Fox's jump startup is 3 regardless."

HEYYY BUDDYYYYY... how about reading my last post ://///...... lmao

 

[Narpas_sword]

i did.

was elaborating on what you said to help dispel any confusion.

Not everything is an argument man.

 

[Litt]

i did.

was elaborating on what you said to help dispel any confusion.

Not everything is an argument man.

All you did was take a middle ground stance after I stated the facts and dispelled confusion... and you also made it more confusing trying to add onto a point I already finished.....

 

[Xenozoa425]

are you guys always like this

 

[Anuran]

are you guys always like this

barbie is... you kinda get used to it. It's like Dwight in "the office". He is obnoxious but grows on you and if he disappeared you would probably subconsciously miss him.

 

[Chevy]

http://www.antd.org/ssbm/jump-speed-statistics-list/

Chevy you are are wrong... there is a 4 frame window for samus in melee... and in PM due to the 1 frame momemtum loss of brawls game engine it becomes 5... thats why its much harder to short hop with samus in melee than in PM and why you are also wrong

(Yes, it may be 3 frames they are in the squat animation, however the window to perform the action is caliculate to the first frame they become airborn... aka the 4th frame for character like... Fox and ...... SAMUS)

Chevy - "Jumpsquat is 3 frames"
Barbie - "Chevy you are wrong about jumpsquat"
Barbie - "Jumpsquat is 3 frames"

wut.

"Melee checks if you've released jump on the last frame of jump startup (3 for Fox), while brawl/PM check if you let go as you leave the ground (4 for Fox). Fox's jump startup is 3 regardless."

So you have at least frames 1-2 in Melee to let go of jump. If you let go during frame 3, it would probably depend on when the game checked for input. At this low of a layer going by exact frames in innacurate, but it's somewhere between 2 and 3 averaged frames.

Also you clearly still don't understand the 1 frame momentum delay, because you continually blame unrelated things on it and incorrectly label it as "built in lag" or a "momentum loss".

 

[ph00tbag]

Samus only has a short hop if you don't pick up the High Jump Boots.

 

[Litt]

Chevy - "Jumpsquat is 3 frames"
Barbie - "Chevy you are wrong about jumpsquat"
Barbie - "Jumpsquat is 3 frames"

wut.

"Melee checks if you've released jump on the last frame of jump startup (3 for Fox), while brawl/PM check if you let go as you leave the ground (4 for Fox). Fox's jump startup is 3 regardless."

So you have at least frames 1-2 in Melee to let go of jump. If you let go during frame 3, it would probably depend on when the game checked for input. At this low of a layer going by exact frames in innacurate, but it's somewhere between 2 and 3 averaged frames.

Also you clearly still don't understand the 1 frame momentum delay, because you continually blame unrelated things on it and incorrectly label it as "built in lag" or a "momentum loss".

Melee... jump squat 3..., leave ground on 4, game registers short hop between frames 1-4, Brawl and PM, jump squat 3, leaves ground at 4, game can register from frame 1-5... All of you are right, you are just stupid and don't understand how to articulate what you really mean

 

[Chevy]

"Melee checks if you've released jump on the last frame of jump startup (3 for Fox), while brawl/PM check if you let go as you leave the ground (4 for Fox). Fox's jump startup is 3 regardless."

Melee... jump squat 3..., leave ground on 4, game registers short hop between frames 1-4, Brawl and PM, jump squat 3, leaves ground at 4, game can register from frame 1-5... All of you are right, you are just stupid and don't understand how to articulate what you really mean

If the initial quote above is true, that's not the case though. If Melee checks the last frame of jumpsquat if you are holding down jump, you would already have had to let go.

So for Melee:

Frame 0->jump command
Frame 1->can let go
Frame 2->can let go
Frame 3->holding jump?(too late to let go)
Frame 4->airborne


PM:

Frame 0->jump command
Frame 1->can let go
Frame 2->can let go
Frame 3->can let go
Frame 4->airborne - holding jump?(too late to let go)

I don't have a way to test this, but unless the above quote is a lie, this is how it would work, giving you 2 frames to short hop in Melee, and 3 in PM. Not 4 and 5, respectively.

As a reminder, frames are not an absolute measure of time; realistically, the amount of time you have to let go depends on when in the game loop you actually inputted the initial jump. It's just such a small amount of time that it's practically unnoticeable.

 

[Narpas_sword]

As a side, calling people stupid when they're actively learning and discussing a topic is...well... stupid.

 

[ph00tbag]

I would expect nothing less from KLit.

 

[Litt]

"Melee checks if you've released jump on the last frame of jump startup (3 for Fox), while brawl/PM check if you let go as you leave the ground (4 for Fox). Fox's jump startup is 3 regardless."



If the initial quote above is true, that's not the case though. If Melee checks the last frame of jumpsquat if you are holding down jump, you would already have had to let go.

So for Melee:

Frame 0->jump command
Frame 1->can let go
Frame 2->can let go
Frame 3->holding jump?(too late to let go)
Frame 4->airborne


PM:

Frame 0->jump command
Frame 1->can let go
Frame 2->can let go
Frame 3->can let go
Frame 4->airborne - holding jump?(too late to let go)

I don't have a way to test this, but unless the above quote is a lie, this is how it would work, giving you 2 frames to short hop in Melee, and 3 in PM. Not 4 and 5, respectively.

As a reminder, frames are not an absolute measure of time; realistically, the amount of time you have to let go depends on when in the game loop you actually inputted the initial jump. It's just such a small amount of time that it's practically unnoticeable.

Here is a great way to put a rest to the conversation for the time being, wait till 3.5 update debug mode comes out... and test it with samus, we will have our answer then