New Property: Combo Breaking Specials

[SamuraiPanda]

Many people here who are familiar with Brawl may recall a nuance to Snake. In the middle of "combos" or chaingrabs, Snake was able to call a grenade between hits even if he couldn't escape, blowing both him and his opponent up. The reasoning behind this mechanic was that when Neutral B was pressed, the grenade itself was summoned within 1 frame. So in between mutli hit attacks or some combos/chaingrabs there were gaps in the hitstun that had at least 1 frame. Thats not enough to jump away, airdodge, or do an attack but it was enough time to summon a grenade.

Turns out there are MULTIPLE specials in Smash 4 that have this property. They revolve around summoning something that comes out within 1 frame. These specials can effectively break combos including some mutli-hit jabs. Many people will recall Megaman's Rush Cancel discovered fairly early which has this property where he summons Rush who knocks him out of the combos. This works a bit different than a 1 frame summon as he can actually do it during hitstun so technically it doesn't fall into this category. Recently another special was found with the same 1 frame property, Pikachu's Thunder. Some people were able to summon up to 3 thunders while getting hit by a jab combo. While watching Shofu's stream, they found that Bowser Jr may also have this property on his Up B (hasn't been tested yet). So its time to name this and explore the roster to find who else has this ability on their specials.

Unfortunately at this time I do not have the full game so I hope someone that does have it can test it out. Choose a good multi-hit jab that is escapable with Megaman and Pikachu (say, Little Mac's jab combo or something) and try out different specials with different characters.

EDIT: There is a new type of combo breaker. Literally hitstun canceling. It seems like some characters have the ability to cancel out of hitstun at any percent but further testing needs to be performed. A video of it can be found here. So far these CANNOT cancel electric hitstun and multihit attacks.


Combo Breaking Hitstun Canceling specials:
- Peach Turnip Summon (While Peach is already holding an item)
- Toon Link Bomb Summon (While Toon Link is holding an item)
- Link Bomb Summon (While Link is holding an item)
- Diddy's Peanut Popgun


Combo Breaking 1 Frame Summon type specials:
- Megaman Up B 1 (Rush) [*Additional possible unique property of breaking out of light hitstun]
- Pikachu's Thunder

----Specials to test by someone with the full game----
- Bowser Junior Up B, down B
- Sonic Up B
- King Dedede side B
- Samus Down B
- Robin's Side B, down B
- Duck hunt neutral B, side B, down B
- Pac-man up B
- Villager side B?
- Charizard down B?
- Game & Watch up B?
Others not included here

Combo Breaking 1 Frame Invincible Specials:
----All need testing to confirm----
- Marth's Up B?
- Lucina's up B?
- Mario's Up B?
- Game & Watch up B?
Others not included here

Combo Breaking 1 Frame Instant Hitbox Specials or NORMALS:
Unclear which specials/normals merit testing here or if there have been historically normals which have acted like this in the past. But the possibility is out there (likely just aerials not grounded normals). If they exist, then Frame 1 counters would fit into here.

 

[iLink]

You kind of have your concepts messed up. Megaman's upb is a combo breaker because it literally lets you act out of hitstun. The others you mentioned, like pikachu's thunder, do not do this and just interrupt follow ups that aren't actual combos. Pikachu's does this because the thunder already starts to come out almost at the very moment you input it.

So in essence, most of those are just good for interrupting potential followups, but not true combos.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

How good does the timing have to be to pull it off? Will it work just by mashing the button as fast as you can?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

You kind of have your concepts messed up. Megaman's upb is a combo breaker because it literally lets you act out of hitstun. The others you mentioned, like pikachu's thunder, do not do this and just interrupt follow ups that aren't actual combos. Pikachu's does this because the thunder already starts to come out almost at the very moment you input it.

So in essence, most of those are just good for interrupting potential followups, but not true combos.

I'm not entirely sure if you read the thread....

How good does the timing have to be to pull it off? Will it work just by mashing the button as fast as you can?

As far as I know you can just spam the button, because thats how it worked for Snake in Brawl.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Wait, so this only works for moves that spawn in another entity that isn't connected to the player?

Hmm...

I'll go try and collect a list of all those types of moves so people can test, I guess.

EDIT: Also, I don't believe that King DeDeDe's "Gordo Toss" will work, since it actually has start-up time before the Gordo is spawned in. Both Pikachu's Thunder and Rush don't have any start-up time from when the object is actually put into the game.

EDIT2:

Duck Hunt's down special should work. The Gun Man is put onto the map right when he starts the animation. His neutral special seems to have the can start growing when the animation starts, but I think it may cancel the whole thing if he's hit while it's starting.

I'm not so sure about Bowser Jr's moves. I think his Mecha Koopa will cancel out if he's hit while it's trying to come out, but it may just pop out or something. I don't think his up special will work with it, since he seems to crouch back in and then jump out of it.

I'm sure that Sonic's up special will work as well, since it's basically the same thing as Rush Coil. Pac-Man may also have a chance to break out of combos, too, since he has a move similar to both of theirs. However, if it does work for Pac-Man, opponents could easily chase him using his trampoline.

While I could be wrong on this, I don't think Robin's Nosferatu will work, either. It doesn't really seem to have that frame window that Mega Man's Rush Coil or Pikachu's Thunder has. Also, I think the whole move cancels out if you're hit. The starting frames on his side special probably don't allow you to use it to break out combos. If it does, though, then I'm sure Ness will have an opportunity to break out of them, too.

Samus may have a chance to escape some combos, as her Down-B comes out relatively quick. However, she has to do her little hop from the ground to start the bomb, and in the air it has a little more start up time. There's a chance, though!

Villager's Lloid Rocket does the same thing that Duck Hunt's can does when it's started - it grows bigger before it's launched off. I'm sure it'll cancel the whole thing out if you get hit while trying to do it. Also, even if it did work, Lloid Rocket doesn't have a hitbox attached to it while it's getting ready to launch, so it'd be a bit less useful.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Charizard's down special Rock Smash? I think those hitboxes are actually attached to Charizard, so it probably wouldn't work. Also, his custom special variant of this move where the little rocks fly off of it wouldn't work either, since those fly off after he's finished smashing the rock.

The videos I used as reference are running at 30FPS, so actual testing is still needed!

EDIT3:

Sonic, the destroyed of all combos. "Come on, step it up!"

 

[Boy Jordan]

NOTE: Marth's Up B also breaks combos (assuming it works the same in Smash 4 which I'm not sure about). This is because it is invincible from frame 1. I'm unclear if we should be including Dolphin Slash in this list because while it works to break combos, it isn't summoning an object/item which makes it fundamentally different from these specials.

We may as well include any specials that break combos for the pure sake of information. Really neat thread, by the way. I didn't know the explanation behind Snake's grenades in Brawl. Also, Mega Man is able to get out of hitstun because Rush's spring resets his animation, correct? At least, that's how I've been assuming that works.

And I knew Pikachu's thunder came out quick, but I didn't know it was at frame 1! Awesome. Pikachu mains will love this.

Excellent work @ Aunt Jemima !

 

[iLink]

I'm not entirely sure if you read the thread....

I'm not entirely sure you understand the point I was trying to make either.

Megaman's Rush upb literally ignores none tumble hitstun so he can use it to break out of stuff like multihit moves that couldn't normally be escaped.

Pikachu's upb doesn't seem to have this same property, but you can use it to escape follow ups that aren't true combos due to the thunder coming out on the first frame you input it. The video example for pikachu's thunder you posted is proof of this. (People haven't realizes that Mario's multiple utilts after dthrow aren't true combos and more frame traps than anything.)

The point I'm making is that megaman's stops true combos and the pikachu one is more for interrupting potential followups that aren't true combos.

Tests out both options against pikachu's dsmash or fair/bair.

 

[CURRY]

Just curious, Lucina has invincibility frames upon startup of Dolphin Slash too, right? If she didn't, that would... not be very good... :/

 

[Shadestars]

Rush cancels because there's some wierdness, possibly an oversight or glitch, that lets megaman use the special while locked in a histun. Pikachu's Thunder isn't really a combo breaker, more of an interupt. It is not acting out of hitstun like Rush cancel is, it's acting out of single frame gaps in combo's, because thunder summons insanely quick. I believe the best way to confirm this is to try acting out of Mario's down throw. Megaman's special will activate just as mario slams him on the ground, Pikachu's thunder will activate a split second later, -after- the hitstun animation ends.

Not to say the thunder interupt is innefective, it most certaintly looks useful, it's just not a true combo breaker.

I'm not entirely sure you understand the point I was trying to make either.

Megaman's Rush upb literally ignores none tumble hitstun so he can use it to break out of stuff like multihit moves that couldn't normally be escaped.

Pikachu's upb doesn't seem to have this same property, but you can use it to escape follow ups that aren't true combos due to the thunder coming out on the first frame you input it. The video example for pikachu's thunder you posted is proof of this. (People haven't realizes that Mario's multiple utilts after dthrow aren't true combos and more frame traps than anything.)

The point I'm making is that megaman's stops true combos and the pikachu one is more for interrupting potential followups that aren't true combos.

Tests out both options against pikachu's dsmash or fair/bair.

I believe this is correct. Rush cancels 'true' combo's, Thunder interupts follow-ups. Both can be effective defensive options, but so far, there is no other confirmed combo breaker to the effect of Rush cancel, merely punishers for follow-ups.

 

[Conda]

Rush likely works the way it does because I believe Mega Man is not 'jumping' in the way we've come to know jumping. Instead, he is being propelled up using push physics (like how the FLUDD, Grenades, PSI Magnet, etc work). Rush activates instantly, and even if he's in hitstun he can still be affected by push physics - which is how his Rush Coil seems to operate.

Thus megaman is simply instantly brought up by the push force of Rush. He doesn't need to be free to physically take an action, because being affected by Rush is allowed -- it's simply push physics, which can always affect players in hitstun.

The 'bug' is that Megaman can summon Rush when in certain hitstun situations.; summoning rush doesn't have an animation requirement from Megaman. He basically 'cheats' in making Rush Coil appear immediately. Megaman is propelled up because RUSH is the one taking the action to use push physics on Megaman to send him up, Megaman is simply somehow able to summon him to make that action happen. This is why I believe it is a bug/oversight, and not an intentional thing.

It should act how Sonic's Spring works - but it does not. Let me explain why I believe why:

When Sonic uses the spring, he takes a special 'action' to go into a special JUMP animation with specific physics, and a tumble animation afterward. Megaman's Rush Coil demands no such 'action' from megaman - megaman simply moves up on the X axis in his 8-bit way. This lack of necessity to make any 'action' on megaman's part (aside from simply making Rush Coil appear below him) is likely why it's doable while in hitstun.


This is just my theory, tell me if I'm mistaken on anything.

 

[Ganreizu]

The point I'm making is that megaman's stops true combos and the pikachu one is more for interrupting potential followups that aren't true combos.

Pretty needless distinction. Yes, they're different, but, they're still "combo breaking".

You might as well jump on people who call jab -> rapid jabs -> jab finisher a combo because it's only 1 button.

 

[Shadestars]

Rush likely works the way it does because I believe Mega Man is not 'jumping' in the way we've come to know jumping. Instead, he is being propelled up using push physics (like how the FLUDD, Grenades, PSI Magnet, etc work). Rush activates instantly, and even if he's in hitstun he can still be affected by push physics - which is how his Rush Coil seems to operate.
Thus megaman is simply instantly brought up by the push force of Rush. He doesn't need to be free to take an action, because being affected by Rush is simply a push move.

The 'bug' is that Megaman can summon Rush when in certain hitstun situations. Even though Rush is the one taking the action to use push physics on Megaman to send him up, Megaman is summoning him to make that action happen. This is why I believe it is a bug/oversight, and not an intentional thing.

It should act how Sonic's Spring works - but it does not. Let me explain why I believe why:

When Sonic uses the spring, he takes a special 'action' to go into a special JUMP animation with specific physics, and a tumble animation afterward. Megaman's Rush Coil demands no such 'action' from megaman - megaman simply moves up on the X axis in his 8-bit way. This lack of necessity to make any 'action' on megaman's part (aside from simply making Rush Coil appear below him) is likely why it's doable while in hitstun.


This is just my theory, tell me if I'm mistaken on anything.

That's a great theory, I think that's most likely the case.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Rush likely works the way it does because I believe Mega Man is not 'jumping' in the way we've come to know jumping. Instead, he is being propelled up using push physics (like how the FLUDD, Grenades, PSI Magnet, etc work). Rush activates instantly, and even if he's in hitstun he can still be affected by push physics - which is how his Rush Coil seems to operate.
Thus megaman is simply instantly brought up by the push force of Rush. He doesn't need to be free to take an action animation-wide), because summoning rush doesn't have an animation, and being affected by Rush is allowed because it's simply push physics (which can always affect players in hitstun).

The 'bug' is that Megaman can summon Rush when in certain hitstun situations. Even though Rush is the one taking the action to use push physics on Megaman to send him up, Megaman is summoning him to make that action happen. This is why I believe it is a bug/oversight, and not an intentional thing.

It should act how Sonic's Spring works - but it does not. Let me explain why I believe why:

When Sonic uses the spring, he takes a special 'action' to go into a special JUMP animation with specific physics, and a tumble animation afterward. Megaman's Rush Coil demands no such 'action' from megaman - megaman simply moves up on the X axis in his 8-bit way. This lack of necessity to make any 'action' on megaman's part (aside from simply making Rush Coil appear below him) is likely why it's doable while in hitstun.


This is just my theory, tell me if I'm mistaken on anything.

For some reason, Mega Man is able to summon Rush while flinching. Rush acts as pretty much your standard spring, like those in Brawl's Stage Builder. Springs in Brawl interrupt whatever you're doing to put you into a jumping state. You can spam Lucario's DAir or a Counter or Reflector (excluding Falco's) indefinitely on a spring for however long you want because the move cancels your upwards momentum and causes you to land on the spring, and the spring interrupts your action. The same probably applies in Smash 4: Rush appears directly beneath Mega Man, the game counts him as having landed on a spring, and he instantly interrupts whatever he's doing to jump off of the spring.

Sonic's Up Special might in fact work the same way, as might Pac-Man's, but if they aren't able to summon their springs during hitstun, the glitch will not occur. Sonic's seems like it has him do a special subaction with him ascending and places the spring as a prop, though, since if you then land on your own spring afterwards it doesn't put you into the same special jump animation. At least, it didn't in Brawl. Instead, it just behaved like a regular spring afterwards.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I'm not entirely sure you understand the point I was trying to make either.

Megaman's Rush upb literally ignores none tumble hitstun so he can use it to break out of stuff like multihit moves that couldn't normally be escaped.

Pikachu's upb doesn't seem to have this same property, but you can use it to escape follow ups that aren't true combos due to the thunder coming out on the first frame you input it. The video example for pikachu's thunder you posted is proof of this. (People haven't realizes that Mario's multiple utilts after dthrow aren't true combos and more frame traps than anything.)

The point I'm making is that megaman's stops true combos and the pikachu one is more for interrupting potential followups that aren't true combos.

Tests out both options against pikachu's dsmash or fair/bair.

Ya know I heard about this property to Rush canceling but I couldn't really confirm it so I ignored it in the OP. Thanks for the confirmation, I added it.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Wait, so this only works for moves that spawn in another entity that isn't connected to the player?

Hmm...

I'll go try and collect a list of all those types of moves so people can test, I guess.

EDIT: Also, I don't believe that King DeDeDe's "Gordo Toss" will work, since it actually has start-up time before the Gordo is spawned in. Both Pikachu's Thunder and Rush don't have any start-up time from when the object is actually put into the game.

EDIT2:

Duck Hunt's down special should work. The Gun Man is put onto the map right when he starts the animation. His neutral special seems to have the can start growing when the animation starts, but I think it may cancel the whole thing if he's hit while it's starting.

I'm not so sure about Bowser Jr's moves. I think his Mecha Koopa will cancel out if he's hit while it's trying to come out, but it may just pop out or something. I don't think his up special will work with it, since he seems to crouch back in and then jump out of it.

I'm sure that Sonic's up special will work as well, since it's basically the same thing as Rush Coil. Pac-Man may also have a chance to break out of combos, too, since he has a move similar to both of theirs. However, if it does work for Pac-Man, opponents could easily chase him using his trampoline.

While I could be wrong on this, I don't think Robin's Nosferatu will work, either. It doesn't really seem to have that frame window that Mega Man's Rush Coil or Pikachu's Thunder has. Also, I think the whole move cancels out if you're hit. The starting frames on his side special probably don't allow you to use it to break out combos. If it does, though, then I'm sure Ness will have an opportunity to break out of them, too.

Samus may have a chance to escape some combos, as her Down-B comes out relatively quick. However, she has to do her little hop from the ground to start the bomb, and in the air it has a little more start up time. There's a chance, though!

Villager's Lloid Rocket does the same thing that Duck Hunt's can does when it's started - it grows bigger before it's launched off. I'm sure it'll cancel the whole thing out if you get hit while trying to do it. Also, even if it did work, Lloid Rocket doesn't have a hitbox attached to it while it's getting ready to launch, so it'd be a bit less useful.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Charizard's down special Rock Smash? I think those hitboxes are actually attached to Charizard, so it probably wouldn't work. Also, his custom special variant of this move where the little rocks fly off of it wouldn't work either, since those fly off after he's finished smashing the rock.

The videos I used as reference are running at 30FPS, so actual testing is still needed!

EDIT3:

Sonic, the destroyed of all combos. "Come on, step it up!"

Excellent work! I agree with all your hesitations, but I simply made the list just to check it out sort of thing. Good call on Pacman's up B, too. I added it to the OP.

We may as well include any specials that break combos for the pure sake of information. Really neat thread, by the way. I didn't know the explanation behind Snake's grenades in Brawl. Also, Mega Man is able to get out of hitstun because Rush's spring resets his animation, correct? At least, that's how I've been assuming that works.

And I knew Pikachu's thunder came out quick, but I didn't know it was at frame 1! Awesome. Pikachu mains will love this.

Excellent work @ Aunt Jemima !

If I'm going to add things like Marth's up B to the list then we need to test for frame 1 invincible specials as well. Lucina's up B or even unconventional moves that may not have had these properties before like Fox reflector or something. Don't get me wrong I actually agree I should add it but I think I may wait to add those specials until we've figure out all the "summon" combo breaking specials first (since it seems easier).

 

[Daftatt]

... Couldn't this be awful? I mean, couldn't this ruin combos on all FD-like stages for anyone fighting pikachu? This seems game breaking to me.

And megaman can just up-B out of hitstun?!? This is so similar to hitstun cancelling in brawl, and that was the thing that ruined brawl's combo system.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

A lot of those moves you listed in the OP aren't going to "combo break" like Megaman's does.

Megaman's has a weird property that allows him to do this, none of the others are combo breaking, they are just acting on the fastest frame possible they can. Just Like Peach nairing in Melee against some follow-ups. She's not combo breaking, she's acting on the fastest frame possible out of hitstun.

Everything but Megaman's UpB is going to do the same.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

A lot of those moves you listed in the OP aren't going to "combo break" like Megaman's does.

Megaman's has a weird property that allows him to do this, none of the others are combo breaking, they are just acting on the fastest frame possible they can. Just Like Peach nairing in Melee against some follow-ups. She's not combo breaking, she's acting on the fastest frame possible out of hitstun.

Everything but Megaman's UpB is going to do the same.

Yeah uh everything you stated here was explicitly mentioned in the OP :X

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So we've well established that Rush Coil is very special in its ability to literally break combos and is likely the only move like itself in the game (up specials like Sonic's, Pac-Man's, and G&W's will warrant testing just in case, but I wouldn't expect them to do the same thing). I do, however, believe that special moves that can "reverse" out of weak "combo" situations by doing something disruptive in a very small number of frames like Pikachu's Thunder are going to be powerful in the long run; there seem to be many would-be combos that drop by just a frame and/or lead into strong option selects for the airdodge escape so having a special move that lets you out as well could be pretty great. From the demo, I observed that Mario's Super Jump Punch seems to be useful in many of the same situations as Pikachu's Thunder (it might be f1 invincible even used in the air?); it's a huge risk since if they anticipate and block or dodge you're super open, but if they go for combos that aren't quite tight, it seems like a good option for Mario to have to bully his way out. It's certainly a differnt world to be in than, say, Link whose options appear to be "airdodge", "double jump", and "get hit" in those kinds of situations which can be nasty if the opponent can cover all of those options.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm not entirely sure you understand the point I was trying to make either.

Megaman's Rush upb literally ignores none tumble hitstun so he can use it to break out of stuff like multihit moves that couldn't normally be escaped.

Pikachu's upb doesn't seem to have this same property, but you can use it to escape follow ups that aren't true combos due to the thunder coming out on the first frame you input it. The video example for pikachu's thunder you posted is proof of this. (People haven't realizes that Mario's multiple utilts after dthrow aren't true combos and more frame traps than anything.)

The point I'm making is that megaman's stops true combos and the pikachu one is more for interrupting potential followups that aren't true combos.

Tests out both options against pikachu's dsmash or fair/bair.

So we've well established that Rush Coil is very special in its ability to literally break combos and is likely the only move like itself in the game (up specials like Sonic's, Pac-Man's, and G&W's will warrant testing just in case, but I wouldn't expect them to do the same thing). I do, however, believe that special moves that can "reverse" out of weak "combo" situations by doing something disruptive in a very small number of frames like Pikachu's Thunder are going to be powerful in the long run; there seem to be many would-be combos that drop by just a frame and/or lead into strong option selects for the airdodge escape so having a special move that lets you out as well could be pretty great. From the demo, I observed that Mario's Super Jump Punch seems to be useful in many of the same situations as Pikachu's Thunder (it might be f1 invincible even used in the air?); it's a huge risk since if they anticipate and block or dodge you're super open, but if they go for combos that aren't quite tight, it seems like a good option for Mario to have to bully his way out. It's certainly a differnt world to be in than, say, Link whose options appear to be "airdodge", "double jump", and "get hit" in those kinds of situations which can be nasty if the opponent can cover all of those options.

I am testing it on the demo and Megaman can't cancel out of hitstun with Up-B. He just seems to be able to summon rush on the very first frame that the hitstun ends. Exactly like Pikachu's thunder.

It's extremely easy to test, just let the computer hit you for a bit, once you are high % then let them hit you with a smash or something, you can't Up-B until you enter the tumble animation (at which point any character could Up-B). You can even jump and start spamming Up-B as the CPU jumps in to hit you, I actually died from the side at 120% from Link's F-Air before I could Up-B.

Also if you could Up-B out of hitstun Megaman would be completely unkillable from the sides, you could just Up-B any hit that sends you horizontally instantly and survive at any % since Megaman's Up-B cancels your horizontal momentum.





Just tested, you cannot break out of multihit moves with Megaman's Up-B. It's exactly what Samurai Panda described. To test it I went against Pikachu, let him get me to 70-80% (so he deals more hitstun) and then SDIed into his jab until I was almost inside him and then tried to Up-B. I wasn't be able to Up-B until I was much farther away from Pikachu at which point there were a few frames between each jab (uncatchable to the eye) where I could act out and possibly even shield.

Just tested with Pikachu's F-Air and Back-Air, Megaman cannot break out of those 2 either. I am almost 100% sure Megaman's Up-B doesn't have some "unique property" and it's just exactly what Samurai Panda explained on the first post. He only "breaks" after you VI upwards enough where you are already out of the hit. It's so fast you can't see it. Basically what is breaking Megaman out of the move is the upwards VI as Pikachu is falling not the Up-B.

If you want to test it yourself just want until Pikachu does a Forward Air while he is jumping/rising then try to Up-B, you won't be able to.




In fact, this just happaned: Pikachu Forward-Aired me as he was falling, I was able to instantly break out of it but Rush was also under Pikachu, pushing him upwards with me. Pikachu INSTANTLY Forward-Aired me again after Rush cancelled his previous one and I wasn't able to break out of it, ever. I got hit by the whole move even though I was spamming Up-B.

I am now 99.99% sure that Megaman's Up-B has no "special breaking" property to it. Here's what's happening: Summon abilities spawn on first frame. VIng upwards while your opponent if falling takes you out of aerial multi-hit moves. The very first frame you are out of the move Megaman summons Rush. It all looks so fast you think he is breaking the multi-hit move, but he actually isn't.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I did test it with Mega Man in the demo. He can't break "instantly" out of hitstun, but I'm pretty sure he can move way before other characters out of "weak" hitstun. Just do Mario dthrow to utilt chains at various percentages against Mega Man and then try it against Mario with the victim mashing up special in both cases (testing with the AI is completely useless for this; you need two humans or you can't figure out anything). Mega Man just rockets out super fast in all cases while Mario goes through his entire hitstun animation and then breaks out of the situation with Super Jump Punch if there's a gap (which at some percentage ranges there isn't but at others there is). If you try the same set-ups with Link as the victim, you discover Link just has zero ways out until he's at such high damage that he gets sent too far away for comboing to be possible in any real sense so you really have three different sorts of situations characters can be in. Mario low percent dthrow to utilt never works against Mega Man, sometimes works against Mario, and always works against Link.

Yeah, Mega Man can't use Rush Coil to escape any of the multi-hit moves or jab combos in the demo, but that's just showing that the Rush Coil mechanics are really situational more than anything. I believe that smash 4 has a variety of similar states that collectively form "hitstun" and that only one of them has the odd behavior that Mega Man can use Rush Coil during it; it will probably take us a long time to figure out what exactly is going on internally, but it's definitely not normal. If I had to guess, Rush Coil can cancel the transition animation from weak hitstun to neutral; things that just "naturally" combo like jab combos and weaker multi-hits never invoke that transition, and anything that hits hard enough so it transitions to tumble instead of neutral also doesn't work. I intend to explore this in-depth with the full game (my list is getting long of stuff to explore in the full game!); that should let us get a much clearer picture as we'll have many more unique moves to try out and there will be more characters than just Mario who can make interesting combo situations to test escapes against.

Rush Coil does seem to operate as a f1 escape option in the situations in which it doesn't cancel hitstun, but in most combo situations that anyone could posslby escape, Rush Coil seems to go even earlier. It kinda muddies the waters here since it's a unique (and probably buggy) superior version of the general sort of thing discussed in the original post, but the original thing as it exists on characters like Mario and Pikachu is still very useful. To be fully thorough, I think any move that has any of the following on f1 is a useful escape:

-A disruptive article (Rush, grenades, Thunder, etc.)
-Invincibility, super armor, or counter states
-Hitboxes or grabboxes

There really is going to be a world of difference between the characters who have any one of these things and the ones who have none of them I feel, and of course, Mega Man who can sometimes use his disruptive article before frame one is even better in this regard! Apparently smash 4's training mode has an option that can be used to simulate frame advance so that will be very powerful to us to finding which moves actually act on frame one (or before!)

 

[Chiroz]

I did test it with Mega Man in the demo. He can't break "instantly" out of hitstun, but I'm pretty sure he can move way before other characters out of "weak" hitstun. Just do Mario dthrow to utilt chains at various percentages against Mega Man and then try it against Mario with the victim mashing up special in both cases (testing with the AI is completely useless for this; you need two humans or you can't figure out anything). Mega Man just rockets out super fast in all cases while Mario goes through his entire hitstun animation and then breaks out of the situation with Super Jump Punch if there's a gap (which at some percentage ranges there isn't but at others there is). If you try the same set-ups with Link as the victim, you discover Link just has zero ways out until he's at such high damage that he gets sent too far away for comboing to be possible in any real sense so you really have three different sorts of situations characters can be in. Mario low percent dthrow to utilt never works against Mega Man, sometimes works against Mario, and always works against Link.

Yeah, Mega Man can't use Rush Coil to escape any of the multi-hit moves or jab combos in the demo, but that's just showing that the Rush Coil mechanics are really situational more than anything. I believe that smash 4 has a variety of similar states that collectively form "hitstun" and that only one of them has the odd behavior that Mega Man can use Rush Coil during it; it will probably take us a long time to figure out what exactly is going on internally, but it's definitely not normal. If I had to guess, Rush Coil can cancel the transition animation from weak hitstun to neutral; things that just "naturally" combo like jab combos and weaker multi-hits never invoke that transition, and anything that hits hard enough so it transitions to tumble instead of neutral also doesn't work. I intend to explore this in-depth with the full game (my list is getting long of stuff to explore in the full game!); that should let us get a much clearer picture as we'll have many more unique moves to try out and there will be more characters than just Mario who can make interesting combo situations to test escapes against.

Rush Coil does seem to operate as a f1 escape option in the situations in which it doesn't cancel hitstun, but in most combo situations that anyone could posslby escape, Rush Coil seems to go even earlier. It kinda muddies the waters here since it's a unique (and probably buggy) superior version of the general sort of thing discussed in the original post, but the original thing as it exists on characters like Mario and Pikachu is still very useful. To be fully thorough, I think any move that has any of the following on f1 is a useful escape:

-A disruptive article (Rush, grenades, Thunder, etc.)
-Invincibility, super armor, or counter states
-Hitboxes or grabboxes

There really is going to be a world of difference between the characters who have any one of these things and the ones who have none of them I feel, and of course, Mega Man who can sometimes use his disruptive article before frame one is even better in this regard! Apparently smash 4's training mode has an option that can be used to simulate frame advance so that will be very powerful to us to finding which moves actually act on frame one (or before!)

I tested it around 100 times. He doesn't cancel out in some situations and doesn't in others. It's a consistent behavior. VI takes you out of the combo just enough for hitstun to end for 1 frame and you can Up-B. His Up-B isn't special except in the fact that while "spamming it" you are VIing up instead of down like with Pikachu's thunder which is what "breaks" the combo. Go test it yourself.

Also you can definitely test with CPUs when it's something like this which only requires one player doing an specific input. I just spam Up-B 100% of the time, never stop spamming it. At some point Pikachu will jump and Forward-Air or Back-Air you, since you are always spamming Up-B you only need to check what happens and note it down. I noticed that everytime Pikachu is rising up I can't break out of the combo. That's a consistent behavior.

If he is rising from his jump I can't break out of it, otherwise I can break out of it. Thus that led me to the conclusion that it isn't Megaman's Up-B that's breaking me out of the combo, it's the fact that Pikachu is falling. So why would Pikachu falling allow me to break out of the combo? Probably because he falls just enough to where I get outside of the multi-hit hitbox. But why don't other characters also do it? Well, because of VI. With Megaman you hold up in order to spam which makes you VI upwards while Pikachu is falling which makes you get out of range. With other characters you either hold left, right or downwards which doesn't get you far away enough to break out of the move.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

-A disruptive article (Rush, grenades, Thunder, etc.)
-Invincibility, super armor, or counter states
-Hitboxes or grabboxes

There really is going to be a world of difference between the characters who have any one of these things and the ones who have none of them I feel, and of course, Mega Man who can sometimes use his disruptive article before frame one is even better in this regard! Apparently smash 4's training mode has an option that can be used to simulate frame advance so that will be very powerful to us to finding which moves actually act on frame one (or before!)

I'm going to avoid the debate regarding Megaman's Rush Coil for now, and let you two go at it.

I did however take your suggestion and edit the OP to add 3 types of Combo Breaking moves. I do agree that this could make a big difference in the metagame for characters that have it, and I'm kind of disappointed that someone hasn't stepped forward to test this for us yet. Well in the worst case scenario we wait another week for the answers.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm going to avoid the debate regarding Megaman's Rush Coil for now, and let you two go at it.

I did however take your suggestion and edit the OP to add 3 types of Combo Breaking moves. I do agree that this could make a big difference in the metagame for characters that have it, and I'm kind of disappointed that someone hasn't stepped forward to test this for us yet. Well in the worst case scenario we wait another week for the answers.

Me and AA had a bit of a conversation on private messages and he told me that he had a theory that Megaman could break hitstun only when 2 things happened simultaneously:

1-) The current hit does not link into another true hit, or as he said "it's the final hit of it's own chain".
2-) The hit must have no knockback, must be a "weak hit"



The problem with this is that I have 2 counter examples. I have a counterexample of Megaman being able to break out of a combo even when one of these conditions isn't met and I also have a counterexample of Megaman NOT being able to break out of a combo even when both of the conditions are met.

For the first example we have Pikachu's jab. Every jab hit is a final hit and all of the hits are always "weak hits" with no knockback. Megaman can NOT break out of Pikachu's grab if his hurtbox is anywhere inside Pikachu's starting hitbox from the jab, yet even if Megaman is still inside the jab combo, as long as his hurtbox is not inside the initial hitbox (Pikachu moves the hitbox forward when his does his head slam in the jab, by initial hitbox I mean before Pikachu moves his head forward) Megaman is 100% able to break the combo. It is also good to know that as damage increases Megaman is not able to break the combo, around 90-100% it is impossible for Megaman to break Pikachu's jab combo with Up-B, he must first DI/VI out of the combo in order to Up-B.

For the second example we got Pikachu's Back-Air, Forward-Air, Down-Smash. Megaman can and has been known to break out of the combo even after the very first hit. This means that in order to replicate the Up-B "break" the hit does not need to be "the last hit of its chain". Megaman is able to break out of Pikachu's Back-Air and Forward-Air as long as Pikachu is falling or hits him on a spot low in his hurtbox (his feet). Yet if Pikachu hits Megaman around his head or is currently rising upwards when he hits Megaman it is impossible for Megaman to break the combo.



I really think AA's theory is not correct as I can give 4 counter examples with just 1 character. On all of these counter examples it also seems like my own theory is correct, where as long a you VI against the move while spamming Up-B you are able to "break" it and my theory is that you VI just enough to get "out" of the multi-hit hitbox for 1 frame which then causes the summon to appear.



AA also used the example of Mario's Up-Tilt and how he's able to break it with Megaman's Up-B as an example of how the move has some sort of "breaking capacity". But it's already been noted on another thread that if you VI upwards and away from Mario's Up-Tilt chain you can air dodge out of it (although the airdodge puts you in so much lag you would rather probably just eat the chain). If you can air dodge then that means you get at least 1 frame out of hitstun which would mean Megaman isn't actually "breaking" the tilt in any special way thus invalidating this example completely (Even the level 9 CPUs can air dodge Mario's F-Tilt chain too).

He then gave an example against my own theory saying that Pikachu can't Up-B out of Mario's F-Tilt chain. But this example make no sense as Pikachu doesn't have any summon on his Up-B and thus wouldn't be able to perform the mechanic in the OP. As such this "counter example" is also invalidated.



All in all, I won't say my own theory is 100% correct or that AA's theory is 100% wrong, as we don't have enough data to back up either one of our claims. AA's theory could be the one proven to be right at the end. But I am fairly certain that, if Megaman's Up-B has some "unique breaking characteristics" as he theorizes, it has nothing to do with his current "requisites" for the break.

I am also going to put it out there and say I am about 99% sure that Megaman doesn't have some special combo breaking characteristics and that the only reason he "seems special" is because he VIs upwards as you spam Up-B which causes you to get outside of the range of the hitbox and get that 1 frame you need to Up-B. The only other characters who might be able to do the same is Sonic and/or Pac Man since they also have "summoning" Up-B's.

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

I think it's possible that Wii Fit Trainer might be able to do something like this with her Side-B. I read a tip in the tips section last night stating that you could sheild after using Wii Fit Trainer's Side-B and the ball will simply fall to the ground. I don't have the game and so I have no way to test this or if the volley ball spawns quick enough to behave this way, but it might be worth a look. Some video footage makes it look very quick, but I can't tell if the volley ball spawns quick enough.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Me and AA had a bit of a conversation on private messages and he told me that he had a theory that Megaman could break hitstun only when 2 things happened simultaneously:

1-) The current hit does not link into another true hit, or as he said "it's the final hit of it's own chain".
2-) The hit must have no knockback, must be a "weak hit"



The problem with this is that I have 2 counter examples. I have a counterexample of Megaman being able to break out of a combo even when one of these conditions isn't met and I also have a counterexample of Megaman NOT being able to break out of a combo even when both of the conditions are met.

For the first example we have Pikachu's jab. Every jab hit is a final hit and all of the hits are always "weak hits" with no knockback. Megaman can NOT break out of Pikachu's grab if his hurtbox is anywhere inside Pikachu's starting hitbox from the jab, yet even if Megaman is still inside the jab combo, as long as his hurtbox is not inside the initial hitbox (Pikachu moves the hitbox forward when his does his head slam in the jab, by initial hitbox I mean before Pikachu moves his head forward) Megaman is 100% able to break the combo. It is also good to know that as damage increases Megaman is not able to break the combo, around 90-100% it is impossible for Megaman to break Pikachu's jab combo with Up-B, he must first DI/VI out of the combo in order to Up-B.

For the second example we got Pikachu's Back-Air, Forward-Air, Down-Smash. Megaman can and has been known to break out of the combo even after the very first hit. This means that in order to replicate the Up-B "break" the hit does not need to be "the last hit of its chain". Megaman is able to break out of Pikachu's Back-Air and Forward-Air as long as Pikachu is falling or hits him on a spot low in his hurtbox (his feet). Yet if Pikachu hits Megaman around his head or is currently rising upwards when he hits Megaman it is impossible for Megaman to break the combo.



I really think AA's theory is not correct as I can give 4 counter examples with just 1 character. On all of these counter examples it also seems like my own theory is correct, where as long a you VI against the move while spamming Up-B you are able to "break" it and my theory is that you VI just enough to get "out" of the multi-hit hitbox for 1 frame which then causes the summon to appear.



AA also used the example of Mario's Up-Tilt and how he's able to break it with Megaman's Up-B as an example of how the move has some sort of "breaking capacity". But it's already been noted on another thread that if you VI upwards and away from Mario's Up-Tilt chain you can air dodge out of it (although the airdodge puts you in so much lag you would rather probably just eat the chain). If you can air dodge then that means you get at least 1 frame out of hitstun which would mean Megaman isn't actually "breaking" the tilt in any special way thus invalidating this example completely (Even the level 9 CPUs can air dodge Mario's F-Tilt chain too).

He then gave an example against my own theory saying that Pikachu can't Up-B out of Mario's F-Tilt chain. But this example make no sense as Pikachu doesn't have any summon on his Up-B and thus wouldn't be able to perform the mechanic in the OP. As such this "counter example" is also invalidated.



All in all, I won't say my own theory is 100% correct or that AA's theory is 100% wrong, as we don't have enough data to back up either one of our claims. AA's theory could be the one proven to be right at the end. But I am fairly certain that, if Megaman's Up-B has some "unique breaking characteristics" as he theorizes, it has nothing to do with his current "requisites" for the break.

I am also going to put it out there and say I am about 99% sure that Megaman doesn't have some special combo breaking characteristics and that the only reason he "seems special" is because he VIs upwards as you spam Up-B which causes you to get outside of the range of the hitbox and get that 1 frame you need to Up-B. The only other characters who might be able to do the same is Sonic and/or Pac Man since they also have "summoning" Up-B's.

Here's what could be happening: Mega Man's Rush Coil breaks flinching, but Rush does not come out on the first frame of the move. So if you're caught close enough in Pikachu's jab combo, even if you escape hitstun with Rush Coil it doesn't matter because you're already hit again before Rush can come out. The only thing potentially weird about that is your assertion that Mega Man can't escape Pikachu's jab with Rush Coil at around 90%. But I have personally seen footage of Mega Man breaking out of hitstun from Mario's Down Throw with Rush Coil before he could even follow up with UTilt from 8%. I've also seen him be hit with Mario's DTilt and escape with Rush Coil before DTilt's animation even ended. No other character in the demo can act out of hitstun that fast.

 

[Chiroz]

Here's what could be happening: Mega Man's Rush Coil breaks flinching, but Rush does not come out on the first frame of the move. So if you're caught close enough in Pikachu's jab combo, even if you escape hitstun with Rush Coil it doesn't matter because you're already hit again before Rush can come out. The only thing potentially weird about that is your assertion that Mega Man can't escape Pikachu's jab with Rush Coil at around 90%. But I have personally seen footage of Mega Man breaking out of hitstun from Mario's Down Throw with Rush Coil before he could even follow up with UTilt from 8%. I've also seen him be hit with Mario's DTilt and escape with Rush Coil before DTilt's animation even ended. No other character in the demo can act out of hitstun that fast.

Interesting, I will try both of your examples out (Down Throw and Down Tilt) by using Megaman and then by using Pikachu, see if they don't act the same.




Edit: @ JamietheAuraUser I am testing both things thoroughly (it's a bit hard because I only have the demo). I am imagining the DTilt escape was at <16% damage right? I just noticed something about Mario's DTilt that I will post once my testings are done.




Edit2: FINALLY, about 3 hours later, CPU Pikachu Thundered my Down-Throw before I could do Up-Tilt. He was at 0%, I Down-Throwed, Up-Tilted (hit Pikachu) and then a thunder landed on my head. If Pikachu's thunder made him jump in the air like Megaman's then he would have dodged my Up-Tilt.

This is evidence that Pikachu can also thunder Mario's Down-Throw to Up-Tilt combo with some VI (Upwards and inwards is what it seemed like, but I am not the CPU so I don't know). I will keep testing this against Pikachu (basically all I am doing is starting a match against a level 9 Pikachu, grabbing Pikachu, down-throwing into Up-Tilt and checking if Pikachu reacts before the Up-Tilt. I did this around 200 times before Pikachu actually thundered me. It might have been a fluke in my timing or something so I need to keep testing just to be 100% sure).



I will also say that sub 16 % Pikachu is able to shield, jab and grab (and also thunder) me out of a Down-Tilt Spam. This is because the hitstun from Down-Tilt is cancelled completely when you land and when you are below 16% your character won't be raised into the air almost at all which means the hitstun will be cancelled almost immediately. This I was able to replicate many, many times. Fresh stocks, I was Mario vs CPU level 9 Pikachu. I would go ahead and down-tilt him at 0% and he would jab me back before I could act out of my down tilt (one time he grabbed me and some of the times he would shield my followup Down/Up Tilt). Once the opponent is higher than 14-16% they are raised high enough where you can combo a Down-Tilt or Up-Tilt (or even grab or side-tilt) before they land and cancel hitstun.




The first test is a bit inconclusive still but I am sure you can act out of Mario's Down-Tilt at 0% before Mario can act himself. since this behavior was repeated every time at sub 16% damage.

 

[Cuccu Maestro]

I really wih you would not submit evidence from fighting cpu's - I have zero faith that you buffered your uptilts perfectly (in fact I have zero faith that you tested 200 times). You can draw whatever conclusions you want from fighting cpus, but there is no reason for anyone else to trust any of it. Like, do I really have to explain why pikachu thundering out of downthrow uptilt from mario once out of '200 times' as a *computer* is poor evidence of anything?

Keep in mind you're not just putting forth points, you're actually trying to use this evidence to discredit the testing done by people against other humans, some of them with the full game.

 

[Chiroz]

I really wih you would not submit evidence from fighting cpu's - I have zero faith that you buffered your uptilts perfectly (in fact I have zero faith that you tested 200 times). You can draw whatever conclusions you want from fighting cpus, but there is no reason for anyone else to trust any of it. Like, do I really have to explain why pikachu thundering out of downthrow uptilt from mario once out of '200 times' as a *computer* is poor evidence of anything?

Keep in mind you're not just putting forth points, you're actually trying to use this evidence to discredit the testing done by people against other humans, some of them with the full game.

First off, why can't you trust I am buffering my Up-Tilts correctly yet you can trust someone else who tells you they are? By that logic you shouldn't trust any discovery but your own.

Second if you input a combo and a CPU breaks it then you can be 100% sure it's not a combo. There's no need for a human interaction if you can prove it in such a way.



I know that a CPU Pikachu breaking 1/200 times isn't evidence which is why I clearly stated, twice, that I need to do more testing since it might just have been a fluke on my own part inputting the controls.

I clearly stated that my first test wasn't at all conclusive because I am a human and I could have made a mistake in that 1 time, in fact I believe that just because the sheer amount of times I tested it, it's probably more than likely that I made a mistake in the timing.



For the second part I tested Mario's D-Tilt chain on CPU Pikachu (also tested D-Tilt to grab and D-Tilt to Up-Tilt). The majority of the time Pikachu will jab you after the very first Down-Tilt and break any of those 3 chains stated above (but only if Pikachu is less than 14% damage, if he is above 14% you can combo him). If a CPU can do it consistently then so can a human. How exactly is this test wrong?





Also here's the thing, the testing I am discrediting, you can also test for yourself extremely easy.

People claimed Megaman can break out of ANY multi-hit move. If you go into the demo, pick Megaman play against Pikachu and get hit by 1 multi-hit move (Pikachu has so many) and you CAN'T escape it then the that argument is 100% wrong because he can't escape that one multi-hit. It's as simple as that.

I've tried every move that was said in this thread to be escapable and while they are escapable most of the times there are certain times when they are completely 100% inescapable (Keep in mind I am the one playing Megaman so I am the one trying to escape the move, Pikachu just needs to hit me with the move once). That means Megaman doesn't just break them as people are saying, there's some reason why the break is happening. There's a certain condition that allows Megaman to break the move that isn't always met since he can't always break them. No one here knows that condition needed yet, in fact no one but AA has even addressed the fact that Megaman can't break out of most multi-hit moves or plain hitstun in some occasions.

AA has a theory why this "break" only happens sometimes and doesn't happen on others. This theory involves very complex mechanics of the game aligning together to allow Megaman to break from the hitstun. I have shut down his theory with a completely provable example. I showed just one scenario that holds 100% true to his theory yet Megaman doesn't break from hitstun. That means his theory is either incorrect or incomplete (it could be missing one extra condition or something like that).

I have my own theory which doesn't involve stars aligning and it's as simple as pressing upwards helps you DI/VI out of the multi-hits but there's no way to prove my theory until I can test it with an actual human which is why I don't claim my theory is correct yet, I just express my confidence in it.





Edit: @ JamietheAuraUser Just got conclusive proof, if you down throw Megaman before 10-15% he can actually land and shield your up-tilt. It's the same properties as the Down-Tilt where if you land you can cancel the hitstun. If you don't want to believe me then fine, just boot up your demo, fight against a level 9 Megaman and do down-throw -> up-tilt. Do it at least 10 times and I promise you he will shield at least 2 or 3 of those. (Remember to do it when he is low % or it won't work). If he has time to shield then he has more than enough time to Up-B (since it's a 1 frame summon which also gives him a small window of invincibility).

This is probably the reason why he can break Mario's Down-Throw -> Up-Tilt combo, and I am guessing Pikachu can do it too and the 1/200 times he did it to me wasn't a fluke.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Edit: @ JamietheAuraUser Just got conclusive proof, if you down throw Megaman before 10-15% he can actually land and shield your up-tilt. It's the same properties as the Down-Tilt where if you land you can cancel the hitstun. If you don't want to believe me then fine, just boot up your demo, fight against a level 9 Megaman and do down-throw -> up-tilt. Do it at least 10 times and I promise you he will shield at least 2 or 3 of those. (Remember to do it when he is low % or it won't work). If he has time to shield then he has more than enough time to Up-B (since it's a 1 frame summon which also gives him a small window of invincibility).

This is probably the reason why he can break Mario's Down-Throw -> Up-Tilt combo, and I am guessing Pikachu can do it too and the 1/200 times he did it to me wasn't a fluke.

Interesting. Maybe it really does fall into the same category as Pikachu's down B then. Good to know that it isn't the only exception and it actually does fall into these divisions.

 

[Chiroz]

So, there's a new type of combo breaking specials which completely beats out the 1 frame summoning type. There's literal hitstun cancelling.

Until now 4 moves are known to do this:

Peach Turnip Summon (While Peach is already holding an item)
Toon Link Bomb Summon (While Toon Link is holding an item)
Link Bomb Summon (While Link is holding an item)
Diddy's Peanut Popgun

These moves can cancel hitstun at any given time they so desire. They are unable to cancel electric o paralytic hitstun though. As such Pikachu can hit them with moves without Link escaping. You can cancel hitstun at any %, with any knockback. You can also input any momentum changing attack (such as Link's Up-B) instantly and re-adjust your knockback trajectory as you fly.


EDIT: These moves are also completely unable to break out of multi-hit moves! (Tested with Pikachu's Back-Air and Little Mac's jab combo). If you are hit by a multi-hit move you are completely unable to break the hitstun unless you first VI/DI out of it. As soon as you leave the multi-hit area then you instantly throw the bomb.





Some people might believe Megaman's Up-B to fall into this but it does not. Megaman is completely unable to break out of hitstun as I have proved in this thread already. You want an extremely easy test? Play Link, let Mario get you to 100% then let him smash you, press Down-B as soon as he hits you and Link will instantly throw the bomb. Do the same for Megaman and Megaman will NOT be able to Up-B until after Hitstun is gone.

Some people in this thread have theorized Megaman to only be able to break out of a very specific subset of hits of some specific multi-hit moves as long as they do not put Megaman in more than an specific amount of hitstun (meaning that with higher % you can't break out of it anymore.) but in my opinion it's just way more probable that Megaman's Up-B is just a 1 frame summon like Pikachu's and that sometimes you are able to DI/VI out of the multi-hit move for 1 frame and that allows you to escape. (which also explains why he can't escape at higher %s since the attack applies larger hitstun to you and even if you VI out of the move you aren't able to stay out of the hitbox for enough time to get that 1 frame out of hitstun and thus you can't escape).

 

[SamuraiPanda]

So, there's a new type of combo breaking specials which completely beats out the 1 frame summoning type. There's literal hitstun cancelling.

Until now 4 moves are known to do this:

Peach Turnip Summon (While Peach is already holding an item)
Toon Link Bomb Summon (While Toon Link is holding an item)
Link Bomb Summon (While Link is holding an item)
Diddy's Peanut Popgun

These moves can cancel hitstun at any given time they so desire. They are unable to cancel electric o paralytic hitstun though. As such Pikachu can hit them with moves without Link escaping. You can cancel hitstun at any %, with any knockback. You can also input any momentum changing attack (such as Link's Up-B) instantly and re-adjust your knockback trajectory as you fly.


EDIT: These moves are also completely unable to break out of multi-hit moves! (Tested with Pikachu's Back-Air and Little Mac's jab combo). If you are hit by a multi-hit move you are completely unable to break the hitstun unless you first VI/DI out of it. As soon as you leave the multi-hit area then you instantly throw the bomb.





Some people might believe Megaman's Up-B to fall into this but it does not. Megaman is completely unable to break out of hitstun as I have proved in this thread already. You want an extremely easy test? Play Link, let Mario get you to 100% then let him smash you, press Down-B as soon as he hits you and Link will instantly throw the bomb. Do the same for Megaman and Megaman will NOT be able to Up-B until after Hitstun is gone.

Some people in this thread have theorized Megaman to only be able to break out of a very specific subset of hits of some specific multi-hit moves as long as they do not put Megaman in more than an specific amount of hitstun (meaning that with higher % you can't break out of it anymore.) but in my opinion it's just way more probable that Megaman's Up-B is just a 1 frame summon like Pikachu's and that sometimes you are able to DI/VI out of the multi-hit move for 1 frame and that allows you to escape. (which also explains why he can't escape at higher %s since the attack applies larger hitstun to you and even if you VI out of the move you aren't able to stay out of the hitbox for enough time to get that 1 frame out of hitstun and thus you can't escape).

Excellent work. Where did you find the sources on Peach/TL/Link? I heard about Diddy but was remiss in my duty to add to the OP which I've done now.

 

[Chiroz]

Excellent work. Where did you find the sources on Peach/TL/Link? I heard about Diddy but was remiss in my duty to add to the OP which I've done now.

You can clearly see Peach on the video cancelling hitstun (She throws the turnip while being hit with the Bob-Omb). I tested the technique myself with Link on the demo.


You can cancel any hitstun at any % except Pikachu's electric hitbox attacks (Neutral B and Up-B). I am assuming that all electric hitstun can't be cancelled out of because of said test.

EDIT: It is very important to note that while some attacks have electricity in their animation (such as Pikachu's Thunder or Forward-Smash) they don't have electric hitboxes. Electric hitboxes are things like lasers, Pikachu's thunder jolt and quick attack. These moves have a set amount of knockback and hitstun (instead of scaling) and it seems you cannot cancel the hitstun from these moves.

I also couldn't cancel out of any multi-hit move. I tested myself on Pikachu's back-air (which doesn't have electrical properties) and when I wasn't able to break the hitstun I asked a friend to test on a jab combo, he tested on Little Mac's jab combo and confirmed you can't hitstun cancel out of it.



Also, even though it's wrong to assume things, I assumed that if electric hitstun can't be broken out of then paralytic hitstun can also not be broken out of. I am also assuming that things like "freezing" hitstun and such can't be broken out of. You can leave this part out of the OP if you want since it isn't actually tested.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Is Peach's Turnip throw 1 frame? Because maybe you are canceling hitstun on multihit moves but there isn't enough time between hits for the item throw to happen?

 

[Chiroz]

Is Peach's Turnip throw 1 frame? Because maybe you are canceling hitstun on multihit moves but there isn't enough time between hits for the item throw to happen?

Ummm, that's actually a good point. You're probably right. It's probably cancelling the hitstun but the attack just doesn't come out quick enough.

 

[New_Dumal]

I already don't like the Rush cancel, now I have all this problems at combo-ing ?
I was so happy we would have more combos in Smash 4, and now this ?
It's always good to know, but I'm sad

 

[Sliq]

What a bunch of nerds.

#VideogameScience

Also I swear you'd better not be able to act during hit stun. We don't need another 3 Koma Trunks situation.

#JumpUltimateStarsReferences

 

[SamuraiPanda]

What a bunch of nerds.

#VideogameScience

Also I swear you'd better not be able to act during hit stun. We don't need another 3 Koma Trunks situation.

#JumpUltimateStarsReferences

I didn't mind that at all because Trunks is a baller. Besides, everyone knows the real op was 3 koma Sena.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This is scaring me, it really is. Is this going to make Peach super amazing? I mean it doesn't do much for frame 1 stuff but this is still rather unsettling as a whole, lol. Oh well, it's pretty selective so I shouldn't worry too much.