New-igi: the 2013+ metagame and the Future of Luigi

[TobiasXK]

well i haven't been here since forever ago. this placed has changed alot—and this game has changed alot—since 2008ish when i quit. and i don't know how alive this little Luigi corner is, but i've been playing again recently, shaking off that 5-year rust and trying to break through this very new (to me, at least) technical barrier to get back into it (and shoutouts to Tirno for really helping me feel like i can get back into this, even though i probably look hopeless from your end of the skill gap).

and i thought now, with EVO just behind us and a lot of other big sponsored and grassroots events on the horizon for this year and next, it might be a good time to really look at Luigi's metagame from an observational and theoretical standpoint—so not really a guide or anything, but more of a discussion on what Luigis are doing now that works/doesn't/shouldn't, what areas of his game have problems or are going to have more problems as the skill ceiling for the other characters rises, what kind of tech could really benefit us, where the playstyle should be trending, etc.

i'm obviously not really qualified to lead this kind of discussion, since my intuitions are pretty outdated at this point. and also because i've played Falcon almost exclusively since March when i came back. but Luigi's where my <3 is, so.

i've tried to watch a decent amount of vids/streams of EddyMexico, Abate, Vudujin and Vist, and i've gotten to see Houston's Obsoleet play live a bit. and i've tried to come up with some questions and discussion points that might spark some conversation (and feel free to call out any bad conclusions/opinions i might have):

1] first off, "technology". i am super stoked to see platform canceled nair/bair looking like a staple thing that Luigis can and do use. and i was really interested to see fireball being used to get momentum off of platform/stage edges—which was sparsely "known" way back in the day, but people were scared of being offstage back then. i'm hearing "Vududash" for that technique; i don't know if that's standard, so someone let me know!

but what other stuff do you guys think really needs to start trickling down into every Luigi main's repertoire?

me, i've been seeing players get really high utility out of Shield DI and Shielddropping. and Luigi's shield interactions in general always felt pretty weak and limited. Shield DI could get us grabs where normally Luigi's slipperyness would interfere, and be a good soft escape from shield pressure to earn enough distance to WD out. And Shielddropping, basically for every character will change the game because platform followups and traps are pretty significant right now.

2] movement. Wavedash precision control is miles ahead of where it was when i quit; it's amazing. but i've seen basically no dashdance or general initial dash use in most of the matches i've watched. and initial dash has the benefit of unlocking Pivots and not tying you up in LandFallSpecial lag, so i find it kind of weird that this seems to have been pruned out of alot of playstyles.

i've also noticed a sort of stop-motion playstyle in some matchups, where Luigi is just watching for an opening and then immediately rushing in with one really precise wavedash, with very little "wasted" motion at neutral to try and bait or force a read.

Melee has always been evolving toward a really movement-based neutral game, and movement is one of Luigi's natural strong points, so should that be a thing that we develop further?

3] the approach game. so WD d-smash has always been a little bit less common among really experienced Luigis because it's a pretty big commitment to connect. which means that we see alot of WD f-tilt poking or jab-dsmash or jab-grab. but on Shield or vs someone who CrouchCancels, those are still not quite non-commital—especially at low percents. and on-Shield mixups can work, but alot of what Luigi does to pressure a Shield doesn't seem like it's nearly safe enough in terms of frame +/-.

and alot of my question marks re: approach extend to Luigi getting up off the ledge, as well. i have a lot of uncertainties about how the ledge-stall/back-on-stage game is supposed to work. perfect ledgedash > buffered roll is kind of where i've stuck because a lot of aggressive options for turnaround/clearing are locked when your opponent understands/respects the range that Luigi ledge-dash can cover.

i don't actually know what this is supposed to be like. honestly, whenever i see Luigi earn a grab or other initiation or get off the ledge safely without amazing mindgames, i think to myself "that shouldn't have worked".

4] ...which brings me to that classic question of how much the general playerbase's ignorance of low-tier matchups is relied upon. for anyone that plays against people that really know what to do in Marth/Fox/Falco/Sheik/etc. vs Luigi, what are adaptations that you've had to make or "standard" stuff that just doesn't seem to work anymore? what do you do vs a Marth willing to CC every approach into D-tilt and punish spaced pokes with WD OOS? Falcons that know to bait your nair/dair out of juggles with an empty SH or staggered DJ and then punish rather than just going in and letting the combo break?

as a low tier main, i feel like you kind of hope that people don't understand your character very well but you also hope that the gimmick of being janky isn't the main reason you can win, because eventually people will understand the matchup, right.

so for the really experienced players with really experienced practice partners, what are some things that will work more consistently in Luigi play that all of us should start thinking about?

and, of course, anything else that you guys want to talk about, whether it's stuff you've observed, stuff you've been experimenting with, general Q&A for our fellow Luigi residents, etc.

Luigi fighting.

 

[ELStalky]

I would have a few comments...

Shield-dropping: Pretty hard to do if your want to punish low-wind-down attacks, especially if you use the slow stick movement as opposed to precise partial movement for execution. I doubt that everyone is able to adopt this reliably.

Shield-pressure: Luigi's stuff is pretty solid in theory with most moves at -1 or 0 (which is enough for some jabbing in any case), the problem is that you first need to get to that just-above-ground hit which is kind of hard as floaty as he is. Double aerials can get you there but people with good timing will get in-between it seems to me.

WD in neutral: I think it is a great alternative to a long dash-dance, however i am not consistent enough to get the length and timing right all the time, so for me it's more safe to not over-use it as an accidental full-jump from a messed up WD can get you killed.

Dash: Noticed that it is quite decent as well, have yet to make good use of it though...

Getting back on stage: Ledge-dash is probably where it's at, if the opponent stays away do a no-length ledge-dash, if he comes to close to a full-length one through him, you should be fine in any case as you also should have some decent invulnerability left if timed well.

As to what works, i don't know. I just try to be better at basic stuff like timing, spacing, being unpredictable and punishing hard once the opening is there...

(Since Vudu is totally awesome i'd be fine with calling it "Vududash" by the way)

i've played Falcon almost exclusively [...] but Luigi's where my <3 is

o.O that's totally me right there.

 

[pokemongeof]

I have some things to say.

1. It is called a Vududash, since Vudujin was the first to use it often. Gonna miss him though.
We do need to learn how to ShieldDrop, It is a big tactic. Also, Wavedashing should be used more often, and tilts shouldn't just be thrown out randomly. The Fireball should be used more often as a spacing technique.

2. Dash- Dancing should be used more, like I need to use it more. We should waveland more to approach and not l-cancel if it is ideal to waveland. Finally, aerials should be used more often, as luigi can use 2 aerials b4 hitting the ground.

3. I personally hate stalling. I like being just outside the opponent's space, to trick them, and I try to go for grabs. Especially with chaingrabs, Up Throw is great against Spacies. To poke, F-Smash should be used more because it can do higher damage, plus it can poke better and faster.

4. Because Marth and Shiek vs Luigi is so hard for me, I CP falcon for those. Yeah I know; I had to. Plus Falcon is awesome!
Anyways, when i play against Spacies, I try for some wavedashing around, waiting for an opening. I try for Up Throws, because it is amazing! When I play falcon, I try to punish them when they try to punish me, and think where will he be next. Generally, many matches are in the opponents favor, but Luigi has so many options to use.

Two Questions though: How can we improve our metagame like Armada did for Peach? What did Ka-Master, Pakman, and all the other old luigis do what we aren't? I believe it is because they were more offensive than Luigi's today. They went in, trying for the kill.

Also, what can I do against Peach and Doc?

What do u other guys think?
I hope my contribution helped!

 

[ELStalky]

2. [...] We should waveland more to approach and not l-cancel if it is ideal to waveland.

If you can wave-land there no longer is any need to L-cancel because the aerial is over.

3. [...] To poke, F-Smash should be used more because it can do higher damage, plus it can poke better and faster.

F-smash is Luigi's slowest smash, its reach is less than that of a D-smash and you do not even get much from it except on higher percentages where it leads to an edge-guard. Given that the faster D-Smash often already is an over-commitment, i would not recommend the F-smash in situations where it is not likely to hit (e.g. D-throw to F-smash works well for some characters).

Also, what can I do against Peach and Doc?

Should specific match-ups be discussed here?

 

[BluEG]

F-smash is Luigi's slowest smash, its reach is less than that of a D-smash and you do not even get much from it except on higher percentages where it leads to an edge-guard. Given that the faster D-Smash often already is an over-commitment, i would not recommend the F-smash in situations where it is not likely to hit (e.g. D-throw to F-smash works well for some character

If you tilt it downwards when near the edge it kills at very low percentages. Can kill fox and falco as low as 80ish %...its very powerful and i think its very underused. Its a great pivot option as well.

 

[TobiasXK]

wow, i had no idea Luigi/Falcon was such a common pairing. i'll try to respond to some of the stuff that's been said by you guys that jumps out at me, starting with the classic:

The Fireball should be used more often as a spacing technique.

people have been saying this pretty much since always, and it's never really caught on; mostly the extremely long wind-down (Fireball animation is longer than nair iirc?) makes people feel really iffy about using it in neutral. and i mean, i only use it in really sparse occasions to get people to fastfall while recovering or to catch the rare Spacies side-B. i would feel better about it if it at least wasn't so slightly longer than the shorthop airtime, but it's still probably worth giving some thought to.

and i know side platforms on all (?) stages are at a height where fulljump fireball (fastfall) waveland onto the platform works, so there might be something there that can be experimented with a bit—and adding in potential for Vududashing off the platform waveland.

Shield-pressure: Luigi's stuff is pretty solid in theory with most moves at -1 or 0 (which is enough for some jabbing in any case), the problem is that you first need to get to that just-above-ground hit which is kind of hard as floaty as he is. Double aerials can get you there but people with good timing will get in-between it seems to me.

that good, huh? i had no idea; i'll have to look at some frame data and really play around with this more. because i really shy away from challenging blocks with anything other than mindgame>grab, and apparently i might not need to.

Dash- Dancing should be used more, like I need to use it more.

yea, watching the really refined movement of people like Mango and PPMD, we're starting to really see how crazy-powerful tight dashdances and precise initial dash variation can be. that style of baiting, and of dodge and punish, has been the entire point of dashdancing since its inception, and with reaction speeds and general techskill getting where it is right now, i feel like mains of any character should be really stepping up the way that they utilize dashdances. bad dashdancing has always really plagued the playerbase, and a lack of specifically great dashdancing is still really common, even among really solid players.

and with Luigi in particular, the slow execution and technical requirement of Wavedashing, which is otherwise his default movement method, ends up being really impractical and ill-suited for tight short-distance movement like that where speed is extremely important. this is a huge hole in my game, and probably a lot of other Luigis—something that just kind of got left by the wayside when we were working on Wavedash modulation and control and then we got spoiled by the awesome PWD distance and stopped caring about the startup and lag frames.

We should waveland more to approach and not l-cancel if it is ideal to waveland. Finally, aerials should be used more often

yea, the "SHAWL" aerials (which i don't think ever caught on as a term?) were always something i liked alot; thus, my sig—and i've always been surprised that it's not really common among Marth players as a fair mixup/option. but obviously alot of Luigis don't like to risk getting caught in the air with SH aerials in neutral (except fearless EddyMexico, from what I've seen), and especially vs characters like Marth/Sheik who can catch that so easily. but with really good control over your spacing and fadeaways, Luigi might be able to keep relatively safe.

plus, these wavelands can be done so much faster than what you usually see once you get used to the motion of quarter-circle down>side to fastfall waveland. at my most recent small smashfest, i was starting to feel alot better about high aerial on Shield because the mixup between second aerial (and fastfall timings), rejump, drift through, and fadeaway to fastfall-waveland was actually getting me some pretty good mileage. i haven't played with our really top-tier talent in a couple weeks, though, so i'll have to wait and see what kind of responses appear from that crowd.

Two Questions though: How can we improve our metagame like Armada did for Peach? What did Ka-Master, Pakman, and all the other old luigis do what we aren't

and yea, this is more or less the question that i really want to start tackling here. obviously we're a pretty small collective, but i feel like it's better that there be some sort of braintrust than just me or you talking to the 0 other Luigi mains in our respective cities trying to figure out how to escalate alone, right.

i definitely agree that there are some huge differences between current Luigi playstyles and what we saw in the like Ka-Master/Pakman/ROFL generation (though calling Ka-Master old school makes me feel so ancient; old school Luigi to me used to be like Kamaal and Cava and Joshu with alot of d-smash, spotdodge and jab lol).

and it might be worth trying to pin down some playstyle/tactic specifics from a couple generations of top Luigi vids and re-analyzing some of that stuff to see if it can still work in the current metagame or if the broader ideas can be adapted somehow. and there's always that potential for a "back to basics" approach to the theory to be really helpful.

and yea, feel free to talk about matchups and frame data and things like that in here, too; that's all part of the consolidation of Luigi theory and knowledge that we want.

and speaking, of which, and since pokemongeof and BlueEG both mentioned some possibly overlooked F-Smash utility... does anyone have specific information for F-Smash cutting the wavedash momentum? timing-wise, it feels like it's right around where the ~10 LandfallSpecialLag frames end; if you start an F-Smash ASAP, you'll stick where you are instead of continuing to slide. but i don't know if there's exact frame data out there that pins it down a little better?

 

[pokemongeof]

FYI I play falcon often

 

[Double Helix]

So I am no Luigi main. I really don't know how I ended up here, but I hope you don't mind a Ness main trying to contribute.

Sounds to me like there is a concern of unnecessary thrown out attacks, limiting your own movement options, and overall needing to know what moves to use. I have dabbled a bit in Luigi and learned really quickly that I don't want to learn the intricacies of his movement options, so I dropped him. Just a little background.

I feel like a useful stat that the game keeps track of for you would be hit percentage. Considering Luigi doesn't have very many moves that can simply be used to control space (correct me if I am wrong), it seems as though the focus needs to be shield pressure and, the obvious, landing hits. That means that something Mango did at Zenith against M2K on Dream Land (though I can't remember if it was winners or losers) would be to simply control the space by covering more options. Another match that comes to mind is Hax vs Javi on Pokemon Stadium at Apex 2013 where they would dash then wavedash back staying out of range but prepared to punish an overcommitment.

Since I cannot help with moves or super amazing frame data answers, I figured I would try to help in this way. Luigi seems to be all about those FUNdamentals. Seriously man, fundaMENTALs. Spacing, controlling the space, and don't throw out moves randomly that can be punished. I really hope that helps and does not really waste your reading time or insult anyone's knowledge of the game.

 

[nublet06]

I literally taught myself how to play off of tobias' guide back in the day. and obviously my avatar was inspired as well haha.

Thanks man. This game has been such an awesome part of my life.

 

[Moneypants]

Sometimes what I try to do if I'm ledgehogging a Falcon or Sheik at a high % is if they land back on the stage I waveland and sweet-spot shoryuken. I'm not sure if it's optimal, but it sure is fun.
If I'm just edgeguarding I try and predict where they'll land and then punish with a shoryuken, but I have better luck with the previous option...
I feel like the shoryu is hardly used because of its high-risk, high-reward factor, but getting that sweet-spot is such a great feeling, so hopefully more can implement it as a punish at high %'s.

 

[TobiasXK]

I literally taught myself how to play off of tobias' guide back in the day. and obviously my avatar was inspired as well haha.

Thanks man. This game has been such an awesome part of my life.

omg heyy! i had no idea you were still hanging around; do you play alot still? i was literally just the other day telling my roommate that Loud Pipes would make an awesome song for a Luigi combo video, because we were listening to Classics while we had a couple of people over playing. and i went and looked up all the Luigi combo vids i could remember, to rewatch them, and yours used Ratatat because you're so smart. <3

 

[nublet06]

Yeah man i got back in to things a little bit and im actually ranked in socal right now haha. Busy with my senior year in college so i dont really practice at all but i feel like im better than ever. going to a tournament on sunday.

 

[pokemongeof]

Im the exact opposite. I get to practice a lot and I don't get to go to a lot of tourneys.

 

[BluEG]

2 Luigi in pound top5....nice

 

[BluEG]

We should talk Up-air...this aerial is seriously underused IMO

Messing around with stuff like sh-Up-air -> DJ wl onto a platform and Up-air again. On most stages you can fastfall and autocancel into anything.

 

[Tairy Hesticles]

I use the last hitbox on the up-air to cover recoveries that go above b-air, then use b-air to complete the edge-guard against fox, falcon and, ganon. I'm not sure what uses of up-air are generally good but I use it to build damage and/or pressure the opponent on the platform they stand on. As for comboing with the up-air, I discovered that it's about positioning and air control to utilize any of the 3 active frames at will. Which levels of CPU's do you experiment up-airs with? I commonly use lv3's and lv5's, sometimes lv7's cause im not too sure if combos against CPU's in luigi's case are practical. I found that U-throw chain grab -> U-tilt x times -> SH double/single Up-air is a good setup for heavies and fastfallers. There's a lot of freedom deviate from this combo depending on how the opponent DI's the hits.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

What do you guys think about down-b out of shield?

 

[Papapaint]

What do you guys think about down-b out of shield?

It's amazing.

 

[Artificial Flavour]

What do you guys think about down-b out of shield?

Just don't get shined

 

[Papapaint]

I mostly use it as a way of reacting to someone trying to bait a shield grab by landing outside of the grab range/behind me.

Anyone have some tips on getting in on sheik?

 

[Artificial Flavour]

Don't lol. Umm WD>spotdodge on somethings. SH>Dair/Fair>WL>Grab/FTilt works sometimes. It's all really situational due to sheik's super lame play style. Anything in particular you're having a hard time with?

 

[Papapaint]

I do fine against aggro sheiks. It's the campy ones who are causing me grief. They win basically every trade, and I never feel safe going in for grabs.

 

[Artificial Flavour]

Give them some fireballs zip around on the platforms. Try and bait out some moves. Wave stepping can keep your movement and keep you close at the same time.

 

[Yann J.Ridin]

Yo! I 've notice that the right angle for the longer wavedash is 67,5°. Even a few degrees less will change the distance. (measured with dolphin debug menu on Battlefield. I used the purples lines on the ground to measure the distance)

In tournament, is there a rule which prohibits a notch on the gamepad at 67,5°?

 

[ELStalky]

Input is snapping at the two main axes, so you probably (?) want the flattest angle that does not, here is a diagram.

Did you measure flatter angles with less distance that did not snap and produce an air-dodge?

 

[Yann J.Ridin]

(I don't spek very well english, so i don't really understand your question. But I TAS, so playing frame per frame. I always do the Wavedash ASAP)

Interesting, I haven't seen that diagram before. On this diagram, the flattest angle would be 72,5° (maybe 73°).

But, in the game, if you do an angle above 67,5°, Luigi will do a horizontal air dodge. There is only 4 type of aire doge per quadrant ( 0°, 22.5°, 45°, 67.5°) but there is a momentum different for each degrees possible for the gamepad

 

[Yann J.Ridin]

Oh! I was totally wrong!

There isn't only 4 type of aire dodge per quadrant. There is many more:

The diagram is correct, EACH lines correspond to a different air dodge. The difference between each line is 0.7°.
So, for a quadrant (90°), there is 90 angles possibles: begin with 0°, then 14° after the gap, each line add 0.7° up to 76° and after the gap, end with 90°.

(Possibly still wrong...)

 

[Xyzz]

The lines aren't equiangular even after the supersnapping gaps (image is courtesy of AJP Anton, who is just as infallible as Magus420 or Kadano. Praise be them! (also this post might serve to get one of them on your case of perfect WDing and getting a definite answer to the whole perfect WD angle thing ).