new flatulence power system

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

i dont like how wario flatulence system works the fact that it recharges every 2 minutes. this promotes camping. how about having a system that charges his farts as a reward for aggressive play, like lucarios aura system and power meters in traditional fighters? or perhaps make him have one fart per stock or something.

and also imo wario feels to much like a brawl character. i watched PM finals from apex, and imo it just looked really stupid, and with very little of the awesomeness of melee.

 

[Ace55]

Or it promotes aggressive play from the opponent, it depends how you look at it.

I'm very happy with the way Wario is currently.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

i dont like how wario flatulence system works the fact that it recharges every 2 minutes. this promotes camping. how about having a system that charges his farts as a reward for aggressive play, like lucarios aura system and power meters in traditional fighters? or perhaps make him have one fart per stock or something.

and also imo wario feels to much like a brawl character. i watched PM finals from apex, and imo it just looked really stupid, and with very little of the awesomeness of melee.

That doesn't really make sense. We haven't been able to figure out how to make Down-B charge by eating items, which is unfortunate, but the only other way to make Waft charge make sense in a different way would be to build up charge by getting hit, which most people agree would be bad (rewarding players for being bad, in essence). As it is, Wario really struggles with approaching the opponent, but the Waft makes people want to approach for fear of a safe equivalent of Rest after a while. It's a good system that makes opponents come to him, despite the fact that Wario can't approach them.

One Waft per stock would mean that the move would be useless after the first use (I don't like the idea of a move being useless until you die), and given that most matches don't currently last six+ minutes, it would be a noticeable, unnecessary buff of the character.

Wario does feel a whole lot like Brawl Wario, which is good, as far as I can tell, since he is probably the most dynamic character in Brawl. The most "important" part of his character is his horizontal aerial mobility, and it would have to be taken away in order to "Melee-fy" him, effectively ruining the character. Dashdance camping isn't any less boring than weaving in the air; I don't see why Falcon play is any more exciting than PM Wario play, since they both camp, can carry momentum, and take huge advantage of their ability to punish tech chases really well.

Wario was not the problem of PM Grand Finals at APEX. Sonic gets to pick and choose every single altercation and Wario is rather slow, making it a boring campfest. Did you feel the same way about the other APEX Wario matches?

 

[0RLY]

Sonic was the problem, not Wario.

Reflex. You are perfect <3

As for waft charging... do you know how much time needs to pass in order to go from one phase of the fart to the next? Thanks in advance.

 

[\Apples]

Agreed completely. Just wanted to back that up, Sonic was the issue.

As far as I know, the Waft's growth rate hasn't changed? Which would mean...

[COLLAPSE="Correct me if I'm wrong."]

Wario Waft

Uncharged

Hitbox 0: 0% damage, angle of *, 0/1 knockback, attached to nothing, Typeless/Slip, 100% trip chance, cannot clang, no freeze frames

If you're going to give this the Slip effect, what's the point of having a trip chance of 100%?

Partly charged

Hitbox 0: 10% damage, angle of 45, 60/70 knockback, attached to nothing, Typeless/Normal, cannot clang
Hitbox 1: 8% damage, angle of 45, 20/30 knockback, attached to nothing, Typeless/Normal, cannot clang
Hitbox 2: 8% damage, angle of 45, 20/30 knockback, attached to nothing, Typeless/Normal, cannot clang

I don't think it's possible to hit with the weaker hitboxes, but go ahead and try. Note that the damage varies; see below for details.

Mostly charged

Hitbox 0: 21% damage, angle of 45, 50/66 knockback, attached to nothing, Typeless/Normal, cannot clang

Again, the damage is not going to be a straight 21%. See below.

Fully charged

Hitbox 0: 40% damage, angle of 35, 50/30 knockback, attached to nothing, Typeless/Normal, cannot clang

Hitbox 0: 20% damage, angle of 80, 0/100 knockback, attached to nothing, Typeless/Normal, cannot clang

30 is low for knockback growth; that's probably why the half waft kills better.

Damage graph

0-15: 0%
15-55: 10%-13% (8%-10.4%, if you somehow get the weak part)
55-110: 21%-31.5%
110+: 40%/20%

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, you get full Waft in two minutes exactly now, instead of ~1 minute, 52 seconds. I'd need to ask about the exact numbers for PM Wario, and so I'll do that.

 

[standardtoaster]

15 seconds to reach charge level one, 55 seconds to reach level two, 120 seconds to reach full charge

 

[batistabus]

I'm sure most people would agree that Sonic was the problem. I'd suggest watching some other matches. Wario can do some pretty cool stuff.

http://youtu.be/qJuTAxJoCwg (Reflex vs Kage)

I don't really think the charge time on Waft promotes camping (considering how long it takes), but I wouldn't mind a flatulence-building system if it were possible. We'd obviously want it different form Lucario's an Ivy's. Maybe a combination of biting opponents and eating projectiles could work?

 

[PK Gaming]

The Wario Waft is perfect kill move as is, I wouldn't touch it

 

[\Apples]

I would put him back into special fall after it, but that's me.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

That would make it useless for offstage kills, unless you wanted to just up and kill yourself. And forget about trying to use it for recovery. The fact that it's not available to Wario at every moment of the match kind of balances out how useful it is offstage. It shouldn't go back to putting you in special fall, that would be awful

 

[Ace55]

That would make it useless for offstage kills, unless you wanted to just up and kill yourself. And forget about trying to use it for recovery. The fact that it's not available to Wario at every moment of the match kind of balances out how useful it is offstage. It shouldn't go back to putting you in special fall, that would be awful

Agreed.

10agreeds

 

[abcool]

Wario is great as is. I miss him being mediocre, but i guess i just love mid-tiers.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Wario was never mid tier. He used to be terrible, now he's actually really solid. I think he's really good atm, but he'll slowly dip down into that area just outside of characters who typically win events (much like in vBrawl)

 

[abcool]

I whole-heartedly disagree that Wario was terrible. The PMBR has never created a totally useless character since 1.0. You probably just weren't good with him, but i am not gonna turn this into a discussion on an outdated Wario kit. This Wario is good so lets agree to disagree.

 

[Translucent]

I think in 2.1 Wario was quite a bit worse than he is now. I'm not saying he was low tier and now he's high tier, but the new buffs really do help him out. Fully charged waft recover ftw.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

That would make it useless for offstage kills, unless you wanted to just up and kill yourself. And forget about trying to use it for recovery. The fact that it's not available to Wario at every moment of the match kind of balances out how useful it is offstage. It shouldn't go back to putting you in special fall, that would be awful

As it stands right now, there is barely any risk to the move, considering how high up he goes with it, and how massive the hitboxes are. Also while you are right in saying that him not being able to fart whenever is a bit of weakness, its balanced out because he doesn't have to put forth any kind of commitment to get it, bit of a double edged sword, and honestly you shouldn't even be using it off stage because wario has so many safer edge guarding options. Things like down angled ftilt, down tilt, down smash, fsmash, or his off stage options like nair, fair, and bair would kinda make using a fart a bit of a waste. As for recovery, yeah its kinda easy to punish, but that doesn't mean he should have a band aid slapped on his recovery. Personally I liked it in 2.1 because it made me feel like I actually worked to get back to the stage, and that was kinda refreshing compared to the almost auto recoveries some of the other characters had and still have.

 

[Ace55]

Things like down angled ftilt, down tilt, down smash, fsmash, or his off stage options like nair, fair, and bair would kinda make using a fart a bit of a waste.

Against chars with a good recovery it's definitively worth it comboing into waft offstage instead of going for fair->nair->edgegaurd.

Imo having the choose to use it as recovery is a great feature in itself. Is it worth sacrificing your best kill move to have a chance at recovering? Decisions, decisions.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Wario was not the problem of PM Grand Finals at APEX. Sonic gets to pick and choose every single altercation and Wario is rather slow, making it a boring campfest. Did you feel the same way about the other APEX Wario matches?

no, in fact i laughed at wizzrobe vs leffen because of how silly it all looked. i mean wizzrobe would literally run across the stage to spin in his ball if things got close LOL. leffen running around confused with no clue on what to do, the movement alone made him look like a confused cat on crack
i do agree that 1 fart per stock was a really bad idea when i think about it. still think a supermeter like system would be kewl.

i dont necessarily think that taking away the aerial mobility would meeleify him, as puff had the same thing in melee. do alot of characters even have that kind of aerial mobility in brawl?
that wasnt really what I was talking about, my main concern was the lack of combos. if more initial hits would've led to potential death combos it would've been alot more exciting with all the visual glory and excitement it causes, not to mention the depth of DI mixups and things like that.
it looked more like two handicapped monkeys poking on each other with sticks then two super saiyans duking it out, exploding planets etc (which is what melee usually looks like)

to me, wario feels pretty bad with the exception of the powerful fart of destruction. but hey this guy won apex & most people (here, atleast) dont seem to think wario sucks.
could people enlighten me about why he is good if you consider him as such, what his strengths are, how to play him etc?
i WANT to play him because he is my favorite nintendo character, but i dont like how he plays, so far atleast.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I wrote a little guide that's in the subforum. That'll probably give you some ideas. Feel free to post around there or in other threads to ask questions.

 

[0RLY]

If wario were to charge the fart by eating items with Bite, then he would only be able to charge it against a small percentage of the cast. It could be improved by being able to eat other projectiles, but that would be sort of strange. Mario's fireballs, sure. ROB's laser, weird. Unless you mean like, literally charge it like Ivy's Solarbeam: hold down-b to eat (garlic? food items) double tap down-b to fart.

Speaking of Bite though... Kirby and D3 can Swallow D3's waddles. This appears to just put them in a laggy animation with no real benefit. Wario can't eat them, but if you guys were to like, you know... make eating waddles worth something... Wario's the greedy, hungry man always on the prowl for quirky things to do.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Nah he can still eat them, its got a bit of lag on it, so I wouldn't try it every time. That being said, thats probably my favorite thing to do in that match up lol.

 

[Nausicaa]

So I use Waft basically on the minute mark (maybe 10 seconds late) almost all the time...
Anyone else do this, given this ancient Waft-talk?
The trend seems to be waiting for the full-charge, but I started out with using it as SOON as it was off cool-down and setting it up, and never ended up gravitating to waiting.
What's the deal now/what's generally considered optimal by the public mainstream?

 

[mYzeALot]

I love using it around that time to take the first stock because a lot of the time it isn't expected. Wario doesn't start glowing until he gets the full waft. But it is cool to have the full waft ready because it can also make the opponent play differently when they know that you have it ready. It really depends on how the match is going to determine when to use it, though.