New AI

[archedmaid]

I haven't seen any threads about the AI in a while, so i guess I'm asking if there where any notable changes in 3.6. Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't King Clubber mention an updated Marth AI similar to Fox and Falco that was suppose to be added?

 

[KingClubber]

No updates for AI's til 4.0

 

[ECHOnce]

No updates for AI's til 4.0

Has this been stated elsewhere? Didn't realize features were being planned as far ahead as a supposed 4.0 update.

Props to PMDT and others involved for keeping secret master plans.

 

[archedmaid]

Well that a pretty nice thing to know, AI progress is always interesting to me.

Can we know if Ganondorf will have an AI that knows how to use his cape.

 

[Xermo]

Has this been stated elsewhere? Didn't realize features were being planned as far ahead as a supposed 4.0 update.

Props to PMDT and others involved for keeping secret master plans.

well, clubber is the team's Ai department. I'm sure his word-of-mouth goes.

 

[nimigoha]

No updates for AI's til 4.0

I haven't seen anything in patch notes but have any AIs been updated (either generally or specifically) since the Fox/Falco update in 3.5?

 

[KingClubber]

@ ECHOnce http://smashboards.com/posts/19857621/

@ archedmaid - Yes

@ nimigoha - Yes, Falco and DI

Even better DI for 4.0, None of that Random DI crap though. pretty pointless imo.

 

[nimigoha]

@ ECHOnce http://smashboards.com/posts/19857621/

@ archedmaid - Yes

@ nimigoha - Yes, Falco and DI

Even better DI for 4.0, None of that Random DI crap though. pretty pointless imo.

Cool!
It seems like Roy's AI got a lot better, but maybe I'm just thinking of the DI.
So by "better DI" do you mean they'll DI optimally on most hits or are you going to keep it vague for now?
I think doing a kind of expose on AI modding would interest a lot of people as it's one of those aspects that very few understand.

 

[KingClubber]

@ nimigoha

3.6 CPU's can only DI a few frames after they've been hit, Meaning they wouldn't start to DI until after the second hit.
Another thing they had trouble DI'ing were throws.

These Issues will be fixed for all cpu's in 4.0

 

[DrinkingFood]

What. Random DI is extremely helpful. CPUs would best serve the players as tools for practice against humans. Humans don't DI the same way every time lol, unless there's a shown and proven optimal way to DI, but it's almost always extremely context dependent, to a detail I don't think you can program into the CPUs without an extreme amount of work

 

[archedmaid]

I'm excited for these AI advancements, how about if the turbo mode item problem was fixed or if they still have that problem with Luigis FS?

 

[KingClubber]

@ DrinkingFood - i disagree, why?

Random DI means that the Cpu could DI in the wrong direction. Say ur being usmashed by fox would you DI down?

No, to survive u DI away. This is why Random DI is Dumb.

Combo DI when being combo'd
Survive DI when in Danger of being KO'd

 

[DrinkingFood]

Except it invalidates the concept of DI mixups. Yes, you DI away when fox up smashes. But you don't always know when fox will upsmash. CPUs can break the issue of reaction time which reduces their quality as training partners. It lets you only develop muscle memory for whatever the AI developer deems arbitrarily optimal (how much SDI? How perfect is the DI angle on weird angles like 70 degrees?) and no muscle memory for if the opponent uses a mixup that you deem "bad DI". For example, in melee, more and more foxes are using simply no DI vs slight DI to force impossibly frame right regrab windows for marth's against his uthrow. If you don't intend for CPUs to be used as training partners then that is your prerogative. I think it's a dumb design plan but w/e. Regardless, just breaking it down into combo DI and survival DI doesn't account for context dependent situations, for example, knowing whether or not the attacker has a double jump would decide whether you DI down/away to avoid the double jump follow up, or if you DI in to lose less stage position/not go offstage since they can't follow it up anyway.
Best way to cover all these situations without a metric ****-ton of programming+testing time would be to implement semi-random DI.

 

[KingClubber]

But the thing is having Random DI ...Does Not Correct This.

They way i am doing is far more human way of doing it, but it still doing the correct DI. Slight DI or No. The point of DI is to not get KO'd. So DI'ing in a way to prevent Death is better that just DI'ing in some random direction.

Covering the DI for every single option would not take a Metric-ton of coding. Bero's old DI code was the best way to do it using Knockback Angles and which ways would be best to DI these angles, but it resulted in SDI happening almost all the time. Not to mention he did not know of the AI issues that was preventing CPU's to DI first hits or throws.

Random DI doesn't make things better its just a crutch, and I am not aiming for CPU's that are good to practice against but CPU's that could compete in tournaments.

 

[DrinkingFood]

YES, random DI does correct that. It corrects it part of the time, and will eventually hit perfect situational DI, as well as mix-up DI, and bad DI and no DI, all of which humans exhibit, both on accident and on purpose as responses to either read/conditioning based punishes mix-ups. And keep in mind I don't mean totally random DI; I mean like, favoring certain optimal angles over others; for something as simple as marth's uthrow, this would be left, right, no DI, and slight DI behind, alternating between those with no discernible pattern. Random DI from a training standpoint is strictly better than "This angle, this knockback, therefore this DI." I don't know if that's actually how you're going to program it, but if CPUs aren't exhibiting a range of DIs in order to throw the opponent off then they are only capable of training the player for one kind of response.

If you want CPUs that can compete in tournies, just make them powershield every attack and spotdodge every grab.... ffs that's not a admirable goal when obviously computers should outclass humans in physical performance at any time. Nobody considers or cares about CPUs entering tournies atm (short of bad players getting bodied by lvl9 fox) because they aren't an issue, but if you just make CPUs that can actually compete in tournies, they just won't BE in tournies because tournies are about players. I don't even understand what the goal is.

 

[KingClubber]

YES, random DI does correct that. It corrects it part of the time, and will eventually hit perfect situational DI, as well as mix-up DI, and bad DI and no DI, all of which humans exhibit, both on accident and on purpose as responses to either read/conditioning based punishes mix-ups. And keep in mind I don't mean totally random DI; I mean like, favoring certain optimal angles over others; for something as simple as marth's uthrow, this would be left, right, no DI, and slight DI behind, alternating between those with no discernible pattern. Random DI from a training standpoint is strictly better than "This angle, this knockback, therefore this DI." I don't know if that's actually how you're going to program it, but if CPUs aren't exhibiting a range of DIs in order to throw the opponent off then they are only capable of training the player for one kind of response.

I am not building tools for people to practice with.

If you want CPUs that can compete in tournies, just make them powershield every attack and spotdodge every grab.... ffs that's not a admirable goal when obviously computers should outclass humans in physical performance at any time. Nobody considers or cares about CPUs entering tournies atm (short of bad players getting bodied by lvl9 fox) because they aren't an issue, but if you just make CPUs that can actually compete in tournies, they just won't BE in tournies because tournies are about players. I don't even understand what the goal is.

I am doing this out of own personal joy.

I only care to give people the most human like experience against a Cpu that can play at a competitive level. Frame prefect Power Shielding nor Spot Dodge isn't very human thus not my goal.

If you can not understand any of this feel free to complain to other PMBR members about my goals.