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Ness to become a mid-tier character.

horizons889

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Right now the general consensus on Ness is top 10-15. On the latest tier list he just makes the top 15. Which is very good in my opinion. But the fact that 2 new DLC characters were released might mean he will drop even lower, to the mid tiers. The reason I'm saying this, is because I think (and others as well) that Corrin is a bad match up for Ness. As a Ness main, I find Corrin to be very tough. (If the person knows how to play Corrin) Let me give you an example. I was facing a Corrin last night and was getting destroyed as Ness. I switched over to another character who I'm not nearly as good as with Ness, and I end up 2 stocking him. Corrin just punishes Ness for everything he does. Every time I try to approach I'll get punished, staying back and playing the waiting game doesn't work for her either. Idk, maybe it's just me but Corrin just seems like a counter. Let me know what you guys think about all this and Ness' future on the tier list.
 
D

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I'm not seeing it. Ness still gets very good placings in national tournaments, and FOW getting 5th at Genesis 3 is just a recent example of how potent of a character he is at top level. He may have bad MUs vs the top 3 (fackin' :rosalina:especially), but he's still very good. For the record, I believe he beats Cloud. Can't give my input considering I haven't used Ness vs. Corrin or Bayonetta often.
 

Luco

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I'm not seeing it. Ness still gets very good placings in national tournaments, and FOW getting 5th at Genesis 3 is just a recent example of how potent of a character he is at top level. He may have bad MUs vs the top 3 (fackin' :rosalina:especially), but he's still very good. For the record, I believe he beats Cloud. Can't give my input considering I haven't used Ness vs. Corrin or Bayonetta often.
This. Ness has been making top 8 consistently in large-scale tournaments from release to now. He won't drop to mid tier any time soon unless his results severely peter off.
 

EarthBoundEnigma

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He will inevitably fall as he always does as people learn how to deal with him, in each and every Smash, but this time around it isn't likely that he'll fall all the way down to F,E, or ZZZ tier. He'd have to get worse than some pretty crippled characters first. He may be extremely inconsistent, relative to other characters, but at least he isn't consistently bad.
 
D

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He will inevitably fall as he always does as people learn how to deal with him, in each and every Smash, but this time around it isn't likely that he'll fall all the way down to F,E, or ZZZ tier. He'd have to get worse than some pretty crippled characters first. He may be extremely inconsistent, relative to other characters, but at least he isn't consistently bad.
This wasn't the case in Brawl. He started out as a bottom tier character then rose to low-mid overtime.
 

Uffe

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I was the same way, actually. The first time I was exposed to Corrin, I had a really tough time dealing with her, and not because of her counter, oddly enough. She has range on her nair/fair/uair, and f-smash. But honestly, that's all I really see range on. If Corrin is using side B often, connecting to the ground and kicking you, you can literally prepare yourself by setting up PKT2. Against Corrin, you need to be patient. Some of his attacks keep you out, but that doesn't mean you should try to trade hits. I will say that I did have an easier time against Corrin with my secondary, Samus, rather than my main, Ness. It's still a match up that needs to be learned. I haven't been playing for about a week, so I can't tell you how to deal with Corrin. But he's probably not that bad like Marth or Lucina.
 
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horizons889

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Here is a recent video between FOW and Zero. Just a speculation, but does this video show where Ness struggles and how he can drop in the tier list?
 

VRun0

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Jan 28, 2015
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You can call him whatever you want, but all I know is that Ness is too competitive of a character in this meta to call a mid tier. I think we all understand Ness' strengths, so IMO we should pinpoint Ness' specific flaws as a character to start some discussion on how we can work on advancing his meta. I'll start with some.

1. He has mediocre landing options. This is due to a combination of poor air speed (though good acceleration), lack of an aerial protecting the bottom of him (d-air is only good for autocancelling), and lack of a burst movement option (like Bouncing Fish, or Monkey/Flip Kick). Here are some of his options:
a. Ness obviously has a great air dodge, but it is now second nature for most to punish that option because it is so overused. They wait for it to come out, and then swat him away with an aerial.
b. Ness' double jump leaves him even more vulnerable on the way down, making it very risky. Sometimes, this just works anyway (it is important to take risks sometimes), so don't rule it out completely. PK Jump can be interesting in some situations as well.
c. PSI Magnet is useful as a stall, and players like FOW have used it to great effect. More Ness players should incorporate this move into their game as a mixup.
d. Ness' aerials are not very good for landing (though they are amazing in other contexts). The following aerials are safe on shield: N-air at perfect spacing, U-air with decent spacing, and B-air with decent spacing. However, because Ness has to be low to the ground to utilize these aerials safely, they tend to be easy to power shield or predictable in timing, making them difficult to actually land. Autocancel d-air is another mixup.
e. Going for the ledge is honestly one of Ness' best options to land; however, with how easy it is to punish ledge options in this game, it can be a bad idea.
f. PK Thunder 1 is another mixup; it should be used from a height from where it can autocancel, however.
AND THAT'S ABOUT IT. (unless I'm forgetting something) None of these options are very reliable, so landing is clearly a challenge that Ness players need to work on overcoming.

2. Ness has a bad recovery. A long time ago I went on a rant (where I talked about his recovery a lot): here. Scroll down to the part where I start listing recovery mixups (for the record, I don't really stand by the rest of my post, I'm trying to be more practical as much as I love Ness). Of course his recovery is not really great by any standard, but it is still something we can optimize. Master every mix up and make it a chore to gimp Ness!

3. He has some very rough matchups. As of right now, I'm of the opinion that it is not worth playing as Ness vs Rosaluma. Pick up a secondary for her, it's necessary if you're serious about winning. Secondaries I would recommend are either MK or ZSS (my personal choice). ZSS has a vaguely similar playstyle to Ness, so I would recommend her. She beats Rosalina very solidly, and is not that hard to learn. Another tough matchup: Sheik. It is not impossible to beat her as Ness (though if you are picking up a secondary anyway, you might as well pick them vs. her). FOW and Shaky have had good results against top-level Sheiks, but the matchup is still clearly bad. Some other matchups like Villager are uncomfortable for Ness players, but not necessarily out of his favor. Again, with a secondary (which I find again to be necessary for Ness to succeed), you can pick and choose which matchups you want to play.

4. He has bad mobility. This is kind of hard to get around at all, as it's not like he can just magically increase his dash speed. To compensate for his bad mobility, Ness players are forced to throw out aerials in neutral, which makes it hard for opponents to challenge his space. By virtue of his bad mobility, Ness has trouble approaching in general (though once he finds a combo opener, expect major pain). Overall, his bad mobility makes his neutral predictable, which is a very major flaw in my opinion. We Ness players need to reinvent Ness' neutral to be less reliant on aerials and find what is safe and useful on the ground.

Those are the 4 things holding Ness back. Yes, they are big flaws, which are not particularly indicative of a top tier character. Nonetheless, I think everyone should consider that the way Ness is played is largely the same as how he was played within the first 3 months of release; in other words, his meta has not advanced very far. We have absolutely amazing players like FOW and Shaky who are out there getting great results for Ness, but the fact of the matter is that Ness has not been pushed as far as he can be pushed. We need to work on addressing these flaws and working to circumvent them so that Ness players can be even more successful. Overall, I think Ness has what it takes to succeed in spite of what's wrong with him.
 

Funen1

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horizons889 horizons889 I don't see a video in your post, but I can assume you're referring to their Winner's Semis match at PAX Arena recently. The problem with this is, any sort of tier list discussion from a match like this gets confounded when the skill levels of the two players are clearly not the same, something tier lists don't take into account. How much of it is specific to Ness' recovery being relatively fragile (which it is, don't get me wrong), and how much of it is specific to ZeRo being unequivocally the best player in the world? Player skill still matters a ton in these high-level matches. Take a look at FOW's set against Wizzrobe earlier in top 16. Wizzrobe edge-guarded the hell out of FOW but still lost because FOW found other ways to win.

And I don't mean to sound too harsh or anything, but your last post, as it's written, seems to display a bit of an air of conformation bias, like you're trying to find stuff that supports the idea of Ness dropping but not considering other factors at play. Ness' results across many tournaments down the road will be what gives us more insight into where he might end up on future tier lists, just like how his results in the first year+ of Smash 4 helped determine where he ended up on the first one.
 
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ZeldaFan98

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Ness won't fall to mid tier unless there is another balance patch. Ness has very do-able matchups, for example look at Rosalina.

Rosalina destroys Ness offstage and with Luma it prevents Ness from snowballing from a hit. Ness has PK Fire which must be powershielded or it halts Luma from play and deals good damage to Luma. The neutral aspect is possible but Ness will definitely have to work in the matchup.

His recovery is considered linear but something that's always intimidating is not making it in time to punish it. If someone is hit by PKT2 they can lose a stock at very early percents. If they're hit by it around 20% then the tech window can be input regularly however at higher percent there's a massive amount of hitlag which requires a delayed tech which, if missed, will kill obnoxiously early.

The character does have problems, but if it's mid tier then it's one hell of a mid tier. Mid tiers don't have the luck that Ness has with matchups (which as i stated all are possible) which is just too strong for a mid tier to have.
 

Lord Horatio

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FOW's consistent performance in major tournaments blows the notion the Ness is mid-tier out of the water for now.
 

BlazingPasta

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Nahhhh, Ness is too coooool for that!
I don't see how he could, Fow has pretty good placings with Ness, I can understand why people think Ness would go down, he has some big problems like a really exploitable recovery and problems with camp, kinda slow and has okay air mobility, and a trouble landing.....Man ness has a lot of problems......but he has a lot of KO power and his grab game is amazing and other cool stuff, the problems are tough but it's possible to over come.
 
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CGod

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Ahh remember zero's old top tier video and now 3 of those characters, Luigi, Ness and Pikachu aren't even consider top 10
 

EarthBoundEnigma

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He will inevitably fall as he always does as people learn how to deal with him, in each and every Smash, but this time around it isn't likely that he'll fall all the way down to F,E, or ZZZ tier. He'd have to get worse than some pretty crippled characters first. He may be extremely inconsistent, relative to other characters, but at least he isn't consistently bad.
Here we are, fast forward 4 years, and Ness is ranked solidly in the middle of the Official Sm4sh Tier List.


As predicted, he did not fall to the bottom, he merely fell from the top.
He rests at the bottom of rank C out of G. 27 characters above him. 27 characters below him.
He is more average than ever before.
 

Frihetsanka

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This thread is a good example why looking mainly at results is a poor way to estimage how good a character is. Turns out Ness was a mid tier carried by top level players (at least after the release of Corrin, arguably his worst MU). He's an okay character, but not a high tier, not top 20, probably not even top 25.
 

PK Bash

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This thread is a good example why looking mainly at results is a poor way to estimage how good a character is. Turns out Ness was a mid tier carried by top level players (at least after the release of Corrin, arguably his worst MU). He's an okay character, but not a high tier, not top 20, probably not even top 25.
To be fair to Ness and these aged assessments of him though, in earlier builds of Smash 4 he was legitimately one of the better characters in this game!
 

Frihetsanka

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To be fair to Ness and these aged assessments of him though, in earlier builds of Smash 4 he was legitimately one of the better characters in this game!
Most of the posts in this thread were written during 1.1.4, when he was arguably worse than in 1.1.5 and 1.1.6 (since many of his bad MUs got nerfed in 1.1.5, such as Cloud, Corrin, and Sheik). People should have studied Ness' MU chart and realized that a character with such a mediocre MU chart isn't top 15. People seem to be learning the same lesson with Donkey Kong and Bowser now (at least I assume not many people still think that they are top 15).
 

PK Bash

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Most of the posts in this thread were written during 1.1.4, when he was arguably worse than in 1.1.5 and 1.1.6 (since many of his bad MUs got nerfed in 1.1.5, such as Cloud, Corrin, and Sheik). People should have studied Ness' MU chart and realized that a character with such a mediocre MU chart isn't top 15. People seem to be learning the same lesson with Donkey Kong and Bowser now (at least I assume not many people still think that they are top 15).
You can see why it endured though.
-loyal playerbase
-A lot of utility as an anti-meta character (absolutely hammered Pika in 1.14 who, lest we forget, was considered a top char outside of the thread I don't check anymore, and additionally even with Fox, beat Ryu, etc) at this period in his history
-The Corrin and Cloud MUs were not as developed or as bad as they now are considered. Hell, at this time we weren't even sure if Corrin was actually good (I remember us having this debate now as well) and Cloud's MUs in general were not as dominant as today.

Ness had mass utility as a counterpick, his results were at an all-time high, his MUs were not plain sailing but he had proven able to trump almost all of them, and more importantly, everyone still remembered the days when Ness was very very good, when FOW and Shaky were rinsing tournaments and others found prominent regional success.

It's far too easy to look back "in hindsight", but the game was very different then and in that climate yes Ness was feasibly top 15 - to analyse yesterday's meta by today's metrics is a misguided and an oversimplified excercise. We weren't all stupid - what you read here is a fossil record of what good players, smart players, genuinely had reason to believe at that time.
 

Frihetsanka

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You can see why it endured though.
Yes, I agree with everything above. My point still stands though: People seemed to believe that Ness was really good mainly due to his results (I did as well, at the time), despite having plenty of evidence for him not being all that good.

For instance, FOW posted this MU chart:
*

We now know that some parts of that MU chart are almost certainly incorrect (like Corrin only being a -1, or Lucina being +1). Still, how could people look at that MU chart and still say claim that Ness is top 15? They could argue that the MU chart is incorrect, I suppose. I think, however, that the main issue is that many people primarily used results to place a character in a tier list, instead of actually looking at the character, their tools, and their MU spread and trying to figure out where they fit based on that. The latter is arguably harder than the former, but it is likely to yield more accurate results (oh, and Corrin being a mid tier was pretty ridiculous at the time, at least it seems like very few people still believe that).

*FOW's MU chart was posted on February 24, so it doesn't count as an argument against those who posted in this thread before that time.
 
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