Ness Meta Discussion

[†ang]

So unfortunately I'm a Ness main...
My meta seems to consist of spacing with double jump cancelled fairs, and I try to kill with either the slugger, a backgrab or a bair.
I was wondering if anyone else used different techniques, and would be interested in learning a new valid way of playing Ness.

 

[Gatoray]

Space with Fairs, be careful of shielding and crouch canceling though. Sometimes if they shield a DJCFFL Fair you can grab them out of their shield if you're close and/or quick enough.

Wavedash -> grab is (IMO) the best way to get grabs since Ness has such tiny arms. All of Ness' throws are good except for downthrow which can be DI'd away pretty easily. Maybe at very low percents it's good for a tech chase, but I usually use Upthrow onto platforms if I want a tech chase. Uair is great for chasing them around platforms.

Work on getting REALLY tricky with your DJC momentum changes. Out of the 4 DJC capable characters, Ness arguably makes the best use of DJC. Try practicing forward SH -> backwards DJC aerial -> wavedash away after landing. With Ness, you NEED the mind games so always try to mix up your movement patterns.

Also, remember that PK Thunder from below shield pokes tall characters standing on platforms like Marth, Falcon, and I think Sheik and Peach. If you have center stage, tech chasing PKT is still hard, but you can rack up a bit of damage and humiliate your opponent while you're at it.

At higher percents, Dair to Bair works just as well as Falcon's Dair to Knee. I love that combo. At lower percents, try to get Dair auto-canceled if you can and follow up with a string of Uairs DK style, or even try going for the re-Dair.

Nair is good for GTFO situations.

PK Fire edge guarding is literally pwnage. Against spacies, I love catching side-B with a PKF and watching them fall or playing a bit of T-ball while they're burning if you know what I mean.

PK Flash: The ultimate disrespect. But if used with perfect timing against lame recoveries like Falcon or Ganon, it's actually really good option.

Upsmash Yoyo, YYG aside.... I guess this is an OK move. Catches them off guard sometimes.
Downsmash Yoyo, like Simna said once "It's safer to taunt". This is true.... there are less inactive frames on Ness' taunt than on Dsmash.

You pretty much know the rest.

[EDIT: Vrud likes this, that means it's good advice. ]

 

[--|====> MANIA]

I think that fact that Ness has such an effective DJC is whole reason I even picked up Ness as a main. I agree with most of what Gatoray says, the Yo-yo is kind of slow, but can make for a hilarious edge guard when charged against characters with laggy recoveries who are recovering vertically like Spacies. Granted PK Fire is probably a better edge guard tool. In PM, the PSI Magnet is really interesting as it can make for some interesting mix ups and even combo starters. The magnet can even be used to get back on stage in some situations. I only just picked up Ness a little while ago, but I find him to be really interesting character to play.

 

[Double Helix]

There is only one thing I disagree with so far. Ness's d-throw is still really strong. Even at high percents, the tech-chase is very strong when it comes to tech-chasing. You only have to read the tech (or lack of tech) your oppenent makes. In any case, one huge thing to work on is retreating DJC'd fairs/bairs (depending on which way you are facing). I'll also have to mention this every time I get the chance:

Know when to play Ness like a fast-faller and when to play Ness as a floaty.

This is VERY important. It really changes the dynamic of many matchups. I would type more to elaborate but I have class, so if you have any questions, quote me in the reply or PM me.

 

[Ringedge]

I am crazy for thinking that PK Flash if actually a very viable edge guarding tool? It covers a lot of area near the ledge if you time it right and is super powerful! Or maybe the times I have used it (once or twice) are just flukes..

 

[Gatoray]

I am crazy for thinking that PK Flash if actually a very viable edge guarding tool? It covers a lot of area near the ledge if you time it right and is super powerful! Or maybe the times I have used it (once or twice) are just flukes..

It's only useful if you time it right, your opponent doesn't time the ledge invincibility right, and the character you are edge guarding doesn't have a lot of options for recovering (Falcon, Ganon, Marth). However, if the person you are playing has never played against a good Ness before (95% of the time) it can be used for fear. There are only a few things in Melee that instil enough fear in a player to scare them away from good judgement, PK Flash is one of them.

 

[Double Helix]

In terms of PK Flash usefulness, the best character for using it (even if its not for a kill) is SoPo. His SUPER predictable recovery and high number of recovery frames on the side-B makes a very good tool for keeping him in the air or (if you can) killing him.

 

[dan smith]

you should use pk flash. it's good. just get the timing down. nobody understands it and that is valuable.

dthrowhas has a lot of combo potential.

 

[--|====> MANIA]

Yo-yo glitch?

 

[dan smith]

Yo-yo glitch?

more like no-no glitch

it's just not competitively viable...

 

[Gatoray]

more like no-no glitch

it's just not competitively viable...

As much as I want to deny this, unfortunately it's true. The only way I can see it being used safely is if a Sheik is occupied for some reason and she left some of her needles stuck to the stage. You can actually get the YYG off of those needles, same with Link's arrows, if you're godlike with the timing you can also get it off the flyguys on Yoshi's.

I've tried to experiment with different ways to activate the YYG, it really just seems like we've hit a brick wall with it's usability.

 

[PiBs]

YYG can also be got off tech chases pretty easily and if you punish it correctly it is the best option from a techchase.

 

[Gatoray]

YYG can also be got off tech chases pretty easily and if you punish it correctly it is the best option from a techchase.

There's no option coverage though, you'd have to get a hard read on the tech AND time the hitbox window perfectly, especially if they roll.

 

[PiBs]

There's no option coverage though, you'd have to get a hard read on the tech AND time the hitbox window perfectly, especially if they roll.

Well that is exactly how it is with rest, but it is still the optimal punish.

 

[Gatoray]

Well that is exactly how it is with rest, but it is still the optimal punish.

I guess me and the rest of us need to get better at YYG then. I still think there are better options especially if they know to nullify the YYG when they see you setting it up. I can see it being a good option at low percents but honestly I don't think it's ever the best option for punishing. YYG does not guarantee a KO the same way Jigg's rest does.

 

[Ganreizu]

I guess me and the rest of us need to get better at YYG then. I still think there are better options especially if they know to nullify the YYG when they see you setting it up. I can see it being a good option at low percents but honestly I don't think it's ever the best option for punishing. YYG does not guarantee a KO the same way Jigg's rest does.

The real problem isn't people who know how to stop YYG from occurring (because at high percents pretty much every character goes flying too far away to do anything about the set up, and a DJC uair should be fast enough for the people who can actually get to the hitbox before you jacket it), but rather the people with characters capable of removing or trading with the thunder jacket. Where the thunder jacket slacks in kill potential compared to rest it makes up for in providing an edgeguard situation immediately.

Off techchase sounds like all or nothing, but it does sound like the best option for an optimized ness.

 

[Gatoray]

The real problem isn't people who know how to stop YYG from occurring (because at high percents pretty much every character goes flying too far away to do anything about the set up, and a DJC uair should be fast enough for the people who can actually get to the hitbox before you jacket it), but rather the people with characters capable of removing or trading with the thunder jacket. Where the thunder jacket slacks in kill potential compared to rest it makes up for in providing an edgeguard situation immediately.

Off techchase sounds like all or nothing, but it does sound like the best option for an optimized ness.

This makes more sense, but there has to be a certain percent on each stage where a Bair or a tipper Fsmash would be all you need to get the KO. Both of these options kill relatively early, so why wouldn't you go for these options instead of going for the YYG setup that requires several extra steps to get a kill depending on what you want to do with it? I'm still failing to see why the YYG would always be an optimal punish.

Unless I misunderstood and we're not only talking about tech chase punishes. In that case, what are we talking about?

 

[Double Helix]

Honestly, there are two problems I have with the YYG. First off, if people know about it, they can just run into the hitbox, get an extra 4%, and go nowhere. The second problem is getting the YYG. Even if you get good at it, it still takes better spacing than most techiques in the game, because there is a very very small frame window for hitting it, and the Usmash has a lot of recovery lag. If you connect with the Usmash and miss the YYG, especially if you get close, you could have gotten a harder punish and, again, if you got close, almost definitely lose stage positioning trying to pull off the glitch.

The YYG is awesome. The YYG is risky. I only ever use it in friendlies or blowouts. I always feel like there is a better option. I don't feel like practicing not messing up the thunder jacket (or the star or spike jackets), or practicing getting the glitch to begin with, will ever be worth the time lost that could have been used on safer, and usually more effective, options.

 

[Ganreizu]

This makes more sense, but there has to be a certain percent on each stage where a Bair or a tipper Fsmash would be all you need to get the KO. Both of these options kill relatively early, so why wouldn't you go for these options instead of going for the YYG setup that requires several extra steps to get a kill depending on what you want to do with it? I'm still failing to see why the YYG would always be an optimal punish.

Unless I misunderstood and we're not only talking about tech chase punishes. In that case, what are we talking about?

I'm not talking about 140%+ situations though. At that point just nair and edgeguard. YYG becomes an option at mid range-early kill range of percents (for most characters) where literally nothing else has the same effect as far as killing or setting up for the kill like a thunder jacket. If you have a tech read at those percents the most you're probably going to get is fsmash or djc aerial right? Unless those options combo into more damage, might as well go for YYG if you have it on lock.

 

[Double Helix]

Usually if you have a tech read, you should get the grab. Your Uthrow on spacies and Falcon, or Dthrow on most other characters set up for big damage to get them to that 90%-110% you want from 40% - 80% (which is what I'm guessing you mean when you say mid range early kill range of percents). So unless its a character like Jigglypuff, I would recommend just getting the grab.

 

[Ganreizu]

I would recommend just getting the grab.

Yeah i already do this actually. I'm not good enough yet to get YYG off tech reads, but i can get it off other stuff anyway.

By the way, sometimes i do some inputs while going through a platform and i appear suddenly in standing animation. Do you know what that's about? Is that platform cancelling, or am i auto-cancelling dair or something?

 

[Double Helix]

Yeah i already do this actually. I'm not good enough yet to get YYG off tech reads, but i can get it off other stuff anyway.

By the way, sometimes i do some inputs while going through a platform and i appear suddenly in standing animation. Do you know what that's about? Is that platform cancelling, or am i auto-cancelling dair or something?

If you do an aerial fast enough while falling through a platform, if the hitbox comes out quickly enough, you will do the move and land on the platform. Otherwise, you probably do end up auto-cancelling the move. I've had it happen to me most on Marth for some reason, when I play him for fun. It's only happened for me once as Ness.

 

[Ganreizu]

I've had it happen to me most on Marth for some reason, when I play him for fun. It's only happened for me once as Ness.

I'm pretty sure it has happened to me during marth, maybe falcon. I've gotten it a few times. I don't think it depends on the matchup just the timing/spacing on your approach to the platform which may actually vary depending on matchup? Do you think it's worth looking into? It doesn't seem difficult to input, imo, but i haven't lab'd it up yet.

Waitwaitwaitwait. That's not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about rising through a platform from below and appearing in standing animation. Not drop cancelling. The only thing i could compare it to is the brawl/P:M tech platform canceling but that doesn't seem to exist in melee?

 

[Gatoray]

I'm pretty sure it has happened to me during marth, maybe falcon. I've gotten it a few times. I don't think it depends on the matchup just the timing/spacing on your approach to the platform which may actually vary depending on matchup? Do you think it's worth looking into? It doesn't seem difficult to input, imo, but i haven't lab'd it up yet.

Waitwaitwaitwait. That's not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about rising through a platform from below and appearing in standing animation. Not drop cancelling. The only thing i could compare it to is the brawl/P:M tech platform canceling but that doesn't seem to exist in melee?

Peach has a technique that allows her to instantly enter her standing animation by performing a double jump just as you are passing through the platform because the start of her double jump animation moves downward a little bit. I think Ness has the same thing too, however I think the timing is much more strict because the start of Ness' double jump animation is more horizontal IIRC.

 

[Ganreizu]

Well i expected it to be specific to djc characters of course. Is there a knowledge base for this?

 

[Gatoray]

Honestly, It seems that DJC-specific techniques are not really focused on much because of the lack of popularity in Peach, Ness, Yoshi, and Mewtwo. A lot of this information I just heard in a random place or discovered on my own. And honestly, it seems like almost all Ness advanced tech is a trade secret (Ness is illuminati confirmed).

 

[dan smith]

it was swamp gas

 

[Double Helix]

Sorry. I definitely thought you meant going down through a platform. Also I fell asleep right after I replied lol. In any case, I imagine the reason it happens is because, when playing a DJC character, doing a move stops all upward momentum. So if you try to make any input after a double jump and you are almost on the platform, you instantly auto-cancel the move. That's my guess anyways.

That has happened to me before, but it is really difficult for me to recreate since I'd rather waveland anyways. There aren't many advantages I saw from doing that over wavelanded, otherwise I would practice it more.

If it's happened before you used your second jump then I have no idea what is going on. Even on Dream Land, the platform is lower than the peak of your first jump.