Need some ZSS help, combos and kill moves

[Solatic]

So I've tried to mostly play ZSS, and I've come to an amazing 7% win rate on for glory. A bit late to the party (got the game this morning), but I really have no excuse for being the worst player ever so eh. Anyway, I've seen people say d-throw u-air/f-air is a good combo, however I'm finding it impossible to follow up, every time I d-throw my opponent jumps/air dodges as I get close to them. I might need to do it quicker but I'm having issues doing anything with the 3DS controls. I can't even reliably short hop on this thing.

Despite that I can kind of get my way through the neutral, but I'm finding myself unable to finish kills. I've been trying to use up-b out of shield as a kill move because I can't find another way. Sometimes if I just do a raw f-smash I can catch people, but that's terribly unreliable and not even a habit I want to get. Not to mention none of this seems kills until 190-220%.

So really any help with anything, even just simple control tips will be very appreciated. QQ

 

[Stun✓]

Hi. I'm no expert, but I'd like to make some suggestions.

Play some matches against the AI in Training Mode's slow motion. Pay attention to punishment opportunities, and pay closer attention to the moments when you are punished. You can learn this way or by looking on the forums which moves have the longest period after using them that you are vulnerable.

DON'T ROLL. I cannot stress this enough. You must wean yourself off of it to learn to do it right (which is still almost never). You might succeed in the short run by rolling, but experienced players will anticipate you and punish you nine times out of ten, especially if you roll in a rhythmic pattern.

Zerosuit isn't exactly an early taker but she definitely has plenty of KO potential. You should be thinking about how to KO them at around 60%, and be done with it by 120%.

I probably have a lot more to say so feel free to ask me questions any time.

 

[Latias]

Her kill moves are down b, up b and bair. Fair kills at around 200% fresh and fmash around 150%?. I mainly use up b and down b to get kills since bair is easily air dodge able.
If you do it fast enough at around 100% you can downthrow -> jump -> up b to get a kill unexpectedly; this only works a few times though since they can air dodge it. up b out of shield is also really strong, shield an attack with end lag and use it. The main way you'll get kills with this is paralyzer -> dash -> up b. Down b has a really strong spike if you hit them with it off the edge but you have to space it right, it also kills at 130% fresh if you use it on stage.

 

[Solatic]

DON'T ROLL. I cannot stress this enough. You must wean yourself off of it to learn to do it right (which is still almost never). You might succeed in the short run by rolling, but experienced players will anticipate you and punish you nine times out of ten, especially if you roll in a rhythmic pattern.

Yea I picked that habit up a bit cause it felt quick. Also the lack of wavedashing makes me feel trapped and rolls feel like the quick way out. However, regardless I don't want to pick up a roll habit just to get destroyed rolling in Melee and PM.

Her kill moves are down b, up b and bair. Fair kills at around 200% fresh and fmash around 150%?. I mainly use up b and down b to get kills since bair is easily air dodge able.
If you do it fast enough at around 100% you can downthrow -> jump -> up b to get a kill unexpectedly; this only works a few times though since they can air dodge it. up b out of shield is also really strong, shield an attack with end lag and use it. The main way you'll get kills with this is paralyzer -> dash -> up b. Down b has a really strong spike if you hit them with it off the edge but you have to space it right, it also kills at 130% fresh if you use it on stage.

Is there a guide on how down b works? I've tried to Google it, but I didn't find anything and that move kind of confuses me. It doesn't always make sense where it hits and how hard it hits. Also sometimes it buries the opponent, other times it doesn't. I actually was trying to do that as well, d-throw to up-b, but I found it hitting the upward part, and the kick at the end missing. Although I guess speed and positioning is still a big problem for me in the end.

If I can't get ZSS to work might have to switch to someone who can hit and run, or a camper, like Link.

 

[Stun✓]

You use down b to initiate the arc. During the arc you can tap b again to cause a kick inside the arc. Landing the arc will bury them, and the kick is usually a stage spike.

 

[Latias]

Yea I picked that habit up a bit cause it felt quick. Also the lack of wavedashing makes me feel trapped and rolls feel like the quick way out. However, regardless I don't want to pick up a roll habit just to get destroyed rolling in Melee and PM.



Is there a guide on how down b works? I've tried to Google it, but I didn't find anything and that move kind of confuses me. It doesn't always make sense where it hits and how hard it hits. Also sometimes it buries the opponent, other times it doesn't. I actually was trying to do that as well, d-throw to up-b, but I found it hitting the upward part, and the kick at the end missing. Although I guess speed and positioning is still a big problem for me in the end.

If I can't get ZSS to work might have to switch to someone who can hit and run, or a camper, like Link.

Its not down throw to up b, its down throw jump(maybe double jump) to up b. The trick is you need to start up b when you're right next to them or else it won't connect; its honestly really annoying trying to get it right most of the time. It doesnt work on several characters like Palutena because they have a weird trajectory from down throw. The other player can also airdodge it if you aren't quick enough. I don't know if d-throw jump to up b is guaranteed, I'd have to do lots of testing on it.
Down B you press and then press right or left to go in that direction. The distance you travel is determined by how far you have it tilted to the right/left after pressing it. Press a/b again and a direction to kick in that direction.

 

[Solatic]

Its not down throw to up b, its down throw jump(maybe double jump) to up b. The trick is you need to start up b when you're right next to them or else it won't connect; its honestly really annoying trying to get it right most of the time. It doesnt work on several characters like Palutena because they have a weird trajectory from down throw. The other player can also airdodge it if you aren't quick enough. I don't know if d-throw jump to up b is guaranteed, I'd have to do lots of testing on it.
Down B you press and then press right or left to go in that direction. The distance you travel is determined by how far you have it tilted to the right/left after pressing it. Press a/b again and a direction to kick in that direction.

Yea, I didn't mean I literally d-throw up-b, I usually put my effort into getting below (and as close as possible) them so I know I can at least hit them on the up with it. If I spend too long trying to get to them they always d-air me or something. I guess I severely lack the speed I need, it feels like I've gotta put all my effort into accuracy.

 

[BraveFantasy]

I guess I'll throw my two cents in here seeing as I was having an especially hard time killing with ZSS at first as well. First off is dthrow-> uair/fair. Sadly this is no longer a true combo due to vectoring. Lower percents it still seems to work though. The trick to landing anything off of dthrow in this game is to space uair properly since it's a nice frametrap, and even after the opponent air dodges you should be able to punish them at the end of the air dodge animation before they can retaliate with your uair/nair depending on the situation.

As for killing moves dmash-> up b can be SDI out of so it's not truly reliable. I abused it at first but in my first tournament I took zss to a few days ago there were certain characters (greninja, sheik) who could get out of this setup. So how do you kill? Dsmash-> down b worked well for me since even if they mash out of dmash down b had enough trajectory to catch them once they're airborne. Use the attack finisher of down b for kills 150+. And that may seem like a lot, but with zss if your punishes are on point they'll reach 120 or so without you even realizing it. Fsmash I don't think is too reliable honestly, but used sparingly when your opponents back is facing the edge of a stage it can kill. Bair is a legit kill move for zss, but not in the 3ds version. When we have the ability to better space aerials I can see it coming into play a lot more.

The best advice I can give is think outside the box and work on your kill setups. Each one needs to have several options that each lead to a kill or at least a chance to keep up pressure. For instance....zss fthrows their opponent and said opponent goes off stage. Three things can happen here depending on how the opponent di when thrown...

Let's assume the opponent di's up. You short hop and bait an air dodge then land a free up b when they hit the ground. I may have not clarified before but if the up b starts from the ground it's guaranteed. Dsmash to up b isn't guaranteed as it puts the opponent slightly in the air. A fully charged neutral b would be guaranteed though.

The opponent di's in. This is the perfect opportunity to go for a down b spike. If it misses then no worries. You can still make it back to the stage with your amazing tether recovery. After doing this enough you'll be able to tell the spacing on when you can go for this and when you can't.

The opponent di's out. Shoot off a neutral b or 2 to make them scared so they'll recover low. When they try to recover low run off and nair and force them to use their double jump. As a PM player I'm sure I don't need to explain how to edge guard from here. Just do what it takes to secure the kill but don't be predictable and think outside the box. Like for me I might try say...double jump-> wall jump-> down b spike. Or instead of down b throw out a zair. Whatever gets the job done.

I should also mention uair kills nicely 140+ after the opponent stops spamming air dodge after dthrow...

If anyone disagrees with any of this then please let me know. I'd be happy to hear others opinions on this and any insight into this character I may not be aware of would be wonderful as well. Sorry for the wall post~

 

[Chinaux]

I guess I'll throw my two cents in here seeing as I was having an especially hard time killing with ZSS at first as well. First off is dthrow-> uair/fair. Sadly this is no longer a true combo due to vectoring.

define vectoring

 

[Solatic]

As for killing moves dmash-> up b can be SDI out of so it's not truly reliable. I abused it at first but in my first tournament I took zss to a few days ago there were certain characters (greninja, sheik) who could get out of this setup. So how do you kill? Dsmash-> down b worked well for me since even if they mash out of dmash down b had enough trajectory to catch them once they're airborne. Use the attack finisher of down b for kills 150+. And that may seem like a lot, but with zss if your punishes are on point they'll reach 120 or so without you even realizing it. Fsmash I don't think is too reliable honestly, but used sparingly when your opponents back is facing the edge of a stage it can kill. Bair is a legit kill move for zss, but not in the 3ds version. When we have the ability to better space aerials I can see it coming into play a lot more.

I'm not sure how you're landing d-smash tbh, the best I can think of is paralyzer dash d-smash. Which means my best bet will probably be d-smash out of shield or on a move with a lot of landing lag. Also I still can't figure out how to land down-b, it always seems to attack to high for even a standing opponent. Guess I just need to use it and figure out it's workings better. Other then that though, seems like she doesn't straight up kill well.

 

[pichuthedk]

max charged laser that are sort of close to the enemy can be followed up with an uncharged down smash -> dash attack or if they are close enough /at kill % you can fox trot to up b for the kill.

also the reason people are getting out of our up bs are because we need to aim it properly while going up by holding left or right.

nair is broken vs bigger model characters espeicially if you fast fall it.


apparently if you downsmash and someone spot dodges you can up b them on reaction they wont be expecting it because they just dodged your move expecting to punish.

when ever someone is doing something unsafe no matter how slight (I.e mega man is charging an fsmash from the ledge edgeguarding you or on the stage facing you) zss can close that distance in a matter of frames and land the down b kick.

 

[BraveFantasy]

I use Dsmash on roll reads. If someone is being roll happy, then it's pretty easy to predict when they'll roll. And I've been aiming up b. I still think it's possible to get out sadly. Oos and from a fully charged neutral b I've never had any issues landing the full thing, but from dsmash or the air I've had success and failures all depending on how good my opponent is. It seems to me that anyway who doesn't DI out of our dthrow->uair/fair strings gets hit by the full up b in the aerial situation. Those who do DI or vector out of our uair and fair strings hardly ever get hit by the full up b, making me think that it comes down to us aiming our up b, as well as our opponents SDI and vectoring. Also I've caught quite a few people with the the spot dodge gimmick pichu, and it doesn't just work with dsmash, it works with other moves as well. And sadly I'll have to agree that ZSS doesn't have the best killing potential in the game, as her kill moves are so limited. On the other hand the ones she does have kill relatively early if you land them.

Also Chinaux, there's a guide to vectoring here on smashboards. Just google smash bros 4 vectoring and it should pop up. I would post the link but I'm not able to do that yet.

 

[pichuthedk]

I hear you and you'll probably call me crazy but people tend to DI down smash down/away sorta so if your not able to get the up b fully then just try this out sometime. When you get the D-smash Just foxtrot past them and up b then chances are depending on their % they will just fly into the last hit when the stun wears off.


Another thing there are only some characters that we need to b scared of when they get out of up B Imo unless your strictly talking about people getting out in front of or behind you during it, That would be an entirely different matter which could be fatal I was referring to if you use the up b and they are just kicked up wards out of reach of hit that happens to me a lot and I just take the free extra hits then fast fall.
Also I know the spot dodge up b isn't just for down smash but I just felt like that is the one move people will let go of shield to try and punish you with especially when you trollingly do it behind them or something.
In a way she doesn't but in a way she doesn't sometimes you can just kill people for no reason when I get sometime I am going to test out and make a list of all the characters we can follow up on with down b kick spikes at what %s

Not knowing for real is what got made me not risk it and ultimately get knocked out of a tournament yesterday....errr sunday.

 

[BraveFantasy]

I took second at a local tournament Saturday. Lost to a greninja. I come all the way back through losers, sweeped him three in a row, reset bracket, and then sd'd twice due to a Randy tether cancel and a trying to tether when directly horizontal to the ledge. Has anyone else had issues with the tether missing when you're lined up with the ledge? =/

Anyways I'll definitely have to try that fix trot thing, and I don't believe it's possible to get out of up b until the last few hits if it's done right. It can be sdi'd out of on like second or third last hit, but I've only had a greninja do it so far. The same one I lost to btw. Even then he couldn't retaliate. Apparently up b had quite a bit of hit stun so even if they get out early they can't do anything. Yay. Other than that one character I've only had people get out of the finishing kick. I should have saved these matches...not sure what I was thinking when I didn't. I have him as a friend now though so I'll play a set with him at one point and record the slippery ways of the ninja.

 

[pichuthedk]

I took second at a local tournament Saturday. Lost to a greninja. I come all the way back through losers, sweeped him three in a row, reset bracket, and then sd'd twice due to a Randy tether cancel and a trying to tether when directly horizontal to the ledge. Has anyone else had issues with the tether missing when you're lined up with the ledge? =/

Anyways I'll definitely have to try that fix trot thing, and I don't believe it's possible to get out of up b until the last few hits if it's done right. It can be sdi'd out of on like second or third last hit, but I've only had a greninja do it so far. The same one I lost to btw. Even then he couldn't retaliate. Apparently up b had quite a bit of hit stun so even if they get out early they can't do anything. Yay. Other than that one character I've only had people get out of the finishing kick. I should have saved these matches...not sure what I was thinking when I didn't. I have him as a friend now though so I'll play a set with him at one point and record the slippery ways of the ninja.

I had that and more I sd in bracket game 3 loser r 6 or something do a DK where I apparently Tether canceled but the momentum shifted in a weird way and then I was out of up b Range (this was at 4 % or so). It looked like something you would have done if you were doing that zss glitch where you super jump really high...

anyways the tether thing you had happened was probably from you using it early after letting go of the ledge because I tether with zair sometimes when super close to the ledge side b when far away. zair /side b wont tether right away when you just get off the edge so i guess it's kinda good because you can just get off and instant zair them when jumping off of it.

 

[Abhi-wan]

A fully charged neutral b followed by a down b works pretty well for me, and its also so satisfying lol.

 

[pichuthedk]

A fully charged neutral b followed by a down b works pretty well for me, and its also so satisfying lol.

I also have been noticing that as well especially when they are dumb enough to let me chain it into another one when they are landing.

 

[BraveFantasy]

The attack version of down b is an excellent surprise kill move in general. It's great for punishing the characters that just sit back and throw projectiles at higher percents. And down b burial to down b kick is funny to see. Is it actually possible to get out of this setup? Even if the opponent mashes out of being buried down b kick should still be able to land as they're forced into the air afterwards. I've gotta test this more. Other than being able to air dodge it actually seems surprisingly legit for a kill setup.

Also pichu I believe that is what happened with the tether.

 

[CupofT]

The attack version of down b is an excellent surprise kill move in general. It's great for punishing the characters that just sit back and throw projectiles at higher percents.

This is a very good to use against Toon Links who don't know how far ZSS can jump with down-b. If the Toon link feels safe getting an arrow or boomerang out at 130%+ and about half stage distance they got another thing coming

 

[pichuthedk]

The attack version of down b is an excellent surprise kill move in general. It's great for punishing the characters that just sit back and throw projectiles at higher percents. And down b burial to down b kick is funny to see. Is it actually possible to get out of this setup? Even if the opponent mashes out of being buried down b kick should still be able to land as they're forced into the air afterwards. I've gotta test this more. Other than being able to air dodge it actually seems surprisingly legit for a kill setup.

Also pichu I believe that is what happened with the tether.

It is very useful we always have to remember that Samus's legs let her close the distance in a matter of frames at a moments notice so she can knock the crap out of her enemies when they are doing something unsafe , Especially Helpful VS any charging characters / players who seem to think charging a smash at the edge will always works...which it doesn't 9/10 times.

Define what you meant about the ground burial because her down b buries people in the ground so long as you haven't pushed a button, Depending on their % when I do this I'll either just up them upon landing or go for down-smash -> up b It tends to hit (the stun from D-smash) like everytime. You can't stun people buried but for some reason it works out so that they get out of the ground as soon as I use the stun xD.

 

[BraveFantasy]

I'm not really too sure how to explain it very well. Basically you bury your opponent in the ground, fast fall to land, and then down b again and hit with the kick finisher. It works sometimes. Other times it's possible to mash out. I've never actually dsmash a buried opponent and then up b. Will have to try that. Something I picked up yesterday is if you can catch your opponent with a nair at like 100+ percent near the edge of the stage, you can fast fall, land, and then jump and down b kick and it'll kill usually. This obviously can be air dodged but random stuff like this generally works at least once....not to mention if you know they're going to dodge you can just wait them out and then kick. Also if an opponent is buried at higher percents when they finally get out they go really high into the air. If you suspect they'll mash out, then you can up air them when they finally get out. Works well but takes some getting used to for the spacing though since you have to predict where your opponent will end up and wait for them in said position.