need serious advice against snakes, please!

[IcyLight]

alright. i've been going to tournies since the game came out and place relatively high. The ONLY characters i have trouble against are luigi, peach, and snake.

now, i come here asking for help against snake since the matchup thread no longer has snake matchup, which was extremely outdated as it is.

I WILL SAY THIS NOW: if you do NOT have any experience vs. HIGH LEVEL snakes such as ally, fatal, dsf, etc. then please don't flame at me for "Being a scrub".

Firstly, i think this matchup is snake advantage, and i'm not sure if this is me being bad or if it really is a pain in the ***.

1) i can't just pivot grab snake forever, i can barely grab him as i have noticed all good snakes TILT ME OUT OF MY GRAB. When pikmin goes happy and walks up and grabs snake, i seem to get f-tilted after the pikmin has already reached him, which leads me to think maybe if snake times right he can ALWAYS f-tilt through our grabs? (unless the grab is miraculously perfect-max range, which is doable but difficult)

2) i can no longer combo a good snake with the whole new "let's pull out a grenade when someone is comboing me and screw them over"

3) all good snakes can out camp me. and i mean, well, ****, out camp me. i am a crazy good camper and very good at baiting them into approach into a pivot grab, but good snakes just are able to out camp me

4) *******EDGE-GUARDING OLI***********

Snake, as I have recently learned, has a near perfect edge guard (situational, but most of the time appropriate) where he just sits on the ledge, and if you were far enough out that forces you to up b to the stage (if you KNOW you will be out of range for an aerial). Once he forces your up b to the stage, he just gets up normally and u-tilts me to death (depending on stage/whether or not i time my smash di, etc.) or regrabs and throws off and leads to a repeat. I have near-perfect WAC's and can wac multiple attacks within a few seconds such as against MK so i can't just WAC it, and either way this is when falling after upb so WAC is out of question

To continue with edge-guarding, i also have a lot of trouble landing when snake is on the stage and i'm coming from the edge above the stage without a double jump. i can usually WAC the utilts, etc. but the problem with this is if he doesn't utilt my only options are to nair-uptilt, hope for a LAGGY move to hit which isn't probable (like dair), or to air dodge into the ground. I switch my play style often so i use all these types when recovering, and if i try to attack the snakes gay shield absorbs EVERY hit and then he just regrabs throws off, repeat. If i air dodge into the ground, he can regrab before my utilt can come out, and ic an't just try to side dodge he can regrab in between. This is giving me a hell of a time i've tried doing all the above mentioned, and even tether-mind gamesing but it just is rediculously near-impossible.

To put it blatently, I can only recover when the snake player himself messes up, and in high level tournament play this is not very likely.

5) From the edge problems.

I have a lot of trouble recovering once i'm on the edge. I can do tether into lagless aerial, jump into wac, and i've even managed to incorporate jump up-->tether-->ISJR as tether pulls me to stage and get a lagless jump into an aerial. I can't roll on or just get straight up either, it basically seems like no matter how i recover no matter how sneaky i am the snake is ready with his tilts to knock me the hell off again. This is only a small matter, half of the time I can get back to the stage but it's just so **** hard.

6) Shield pressuring

This is one of the biggest things I have trouble with, is when the snake is dreadfully shield poking with jabs/f-tilts and doesn't give you enough time to shield grab, WAC into a dsmash, jab out of shield, up b out of shield (amazing because unpredictable because 50% of players don't use it, and most people turn tap jump off anyways), or even run away and pivot grab. Rolling is ALWAYS out of the question against snake, and power shielding into xxxxxx still doesn't really seem to work when the snake is good at keeping shield pressure maximized. Is there any other options?



These are my issues with snake, and I have watched many good players vs. snakes and I just can't seem to get past my wall in this matchup. It's so hard, and I am kindly asking anyone who has experienced this type of snake player to please assist me, i don't want to have to pick up another character just to fight a really good snake player. and please, DO NOT flame me if i said something completely in-accurate just inform me that it's just me being wrong about going about it.

 

[RichBrown]

Well I read through all of that, some of it didn't make sense, but I'll go into what I know about Snake.

Basically, you gotta predict stuff. Fsmash is your friend against snake. I've found even against some of the top level snakes that when we are camping back and forth and a bunch of stuff is going on, I'll randomly charge a Fsmash when I think they are gonna mortar slide, and they usually run into it. You just gotta do a lot of predicting. I don't really grab too much, it's really all about the side B and Fsmashing.

Watch my videos against Hall, a really good Snake player from San Diego. These are from January so they aren't all that dated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FidzJTllaSA

The other videos in the set are in the related videos.

 

[IcyLight]

yeah i saw those. the good snakes i'm used to vsing don't mortar slide into an oli often, they know about our fsmashing and pivot grabbing against it. it's really a pain in the *** tbh. maybe i just need to learn a new way to play olimar for those kind of players. i guess some of my rambling didn't make sense but either way, it's so frustrating xD

 

[RichBrown]

Gotcha. I just try to never get close to snake ever. It's a bad scene. Fsmash for spacing is still good though, and I just constantly throw pikmin to block grenades. I honestly enjoy this matchup a lot, it's no way the easiest, but it's my personal favorite to play.

 

[Fino]

NinjaLink tried to tell me that it's in snakes favor because snake can 0-death and olimar w/ dthrow. I lol'd at him for a moment, but it IS ninjalink... so I'm curious to hear what you guys think....

imo it's just a regular techchase... the fact that olimar's roll is slow doesn't help him, but he has options to get out.

Also... what is snake doing grabbing olimar @.@ ?

lol, your thoughts?


~Fino

 

[DanGR]

Maybe the Snakes I play can't do it correctly, but I've never had to approach him. :/ I don't really know what I'd do to approach because of the whole ftilt/boost smash/spotdodge->uptilt/grenade camp mix up- some of which you mentioned. It's difficult to play offensively and I always end up just camping him to death or playing an aggressive defense.

I haven't played a Snake player of that caliber yet (the names you mentioned in the OP) so I can't be sure, but as of right now, I do believe Olimar outcamps him. I would try to get together with a good Snake player and ask him to play several camping battles and see if you're just missing something. Doing this helped me win the camp battle against Kismet's Falco. Found out that SH->pikmin throw->FF->airdodge is a great strat against the lasers. Maybe you'll find something.

Videos always help too.
Good Luck.

edit:
@Fino- lol 0-death on Oli with dthrow tech chase? I have to see it.

 

[Fino]

edit:
@Fino- lol 0-death on Oli with dthrow tech chase? I have to see it.

I said the same thing... and then NL started to try to make me look like a scrub


~Fino

 

[Excellence]

1. Snake's FTilt and Jab combinations are a pain in the ***, especially because so ****ing quick and he can choose to do one hit or two, combinations. I'm sure you know the drill. You don't really want to be trying to stop Snake with grabs. A lot of Snakes can read grabs, jump over them and FF a grab, jump behind you and pivot grab, or they can F-Tilt the hell out of you.

What you need to do is start using Forward Smash. In my opinion, and probably many others, that is Olimar's best spacing move in this match-up. Forward Smash outranges Snake's Forward Tilt, can hit him if he short hops, will knock him out of Mortar Slide, and will punish his run into spot dodge. That's going to be what you're going to want to use. Do not, under any circumstance, let Snake get with F-Tilt range. That's a big mistake because once he gets you pinned against the ledge you're going to take a lot of damage or flat out die.

Once you can control the pace of the match and who moves where, you can pretty much keep yourself in an advantageous spot. Just remember, all Snakes want to establish some sort of stage control.

2. Fino made a really nice point about U-Throwing Snake when he pulls out a grenade and I have to say it was really helpful when I tried it. With Snake's grenade, you're only not allowed to physically hit him (Up Smash, hit the grenade when you pummel, Forward Aerial, Forward Smash), so don't. What you want to do is chaingrab Snake. Down Throw > Up Throw > Pivot grabbed Forward throw. Just as you feel as though the grenade is about to explode (8 seconds I believe) you want to throw him. This way, he gets throw and has the grenade explode on him while he's in the air and away from you. One of the ways I test to see what Snake is going to do when I grab him is just use variations of combos. Usually, their first choice is their instinctive choice, but not always. You may want to try DThrow > runaway and pivot down throw.

3. If Snake is outcamping you, you're probably letting the grenades fall around you and you're being forced to move which is giving Snake stage control and putting you where he wants you. Stop doing that. I like to get close enough to Snake where he is about 1 body length out of range for Olimar's forward smash. This puts a lot of pressure on Snake. If he camps, he's safe as long as you mess up and he doesn't. If he Mortar Slides or tries to approach you can see it and punish him. Outside of that, Olimar ***** Snake in terms of camping. You should try to pay attention to your arcs when you throw Pikmin because they'll hit the grenades midair and explode or fall on the ground. If Snake is cooking grenades that are supposed to explode once they get near you then shield them. If he strong throws a grenade at you, power shield, pick it up and throw it back. The only grenades you should be worried about are the ones that are cooked because you usally cant pick them up, but you can shield them and it takes time for Snake to cook them. In that time, you can be getting some latches and forcing Snake to approach or change his current position.

If you spot dodge a grenade it won't land infront of you which can get some pressure off your shoulders knowing that you don't have to worry about a grenade exploding near you.

4. I can't say that Snake usually edgegards me often because most of the kills that he gets on me are vertical either due to them being from Up Tilt or DI'ing upward, as you should be. If you DI upward, you should have too much a problem getting back to the stage because Snake isn't going to harass you or gimp you, he can't. If Snake is sitting on the ledge he's put himself in the worst possible position he can. Snake is one of the worst characters on the ledge and Snake players agree. When you get back on stage make sure that you punish him.

Assuming that you've used proper DI, you should find yourself falling toward the stage. The situation arises where if you do not tether you'll fall to your doom because you're not on path with the stage but if you ledgehop with Up B then Snake will get up and Up Tilt you. I'm pretty sure our Whistle is faster than Snake when he climbs up from the ledge then uses Up Tilt. But, let's assume that Snake's Up Tilt is faster (in case it really is). Snake should be predicting you to catch you with his Up Tilt, otherwise I don't see him being fast enough to get you.

If he's predicting you, that means he's probably climbing up the ledge a little early which gives you enough time to Up B but fall on the ledge. Make it look like you're going to land on stage, but don't, instead fall on the ledge just as Snake gets up. It may sound risky, but the time frame for you to do this is a little more generous with slow characters like Snake. Once you're on the ledge, you can let go of the ledge then use Up Air through the stage, you can fall down then jump forward with an aerial, you can roll on to the stage, jump, or just stand up. I wouldn't Up Air through the stage more than once per set because people catch on to that fast. If you choose to use an aerial make sure that snake doesn't see it coming because he can catch you with some nasty moves after. I think it's unlikely though because when edgeguarding most Snakes tend to use combinations of Mortars, Grenades, and Mines, but mostly Mortar and Grenades to get you.

Rolling on stage isn't too bad of an idea of you can tell that Snake's spacing put hims into a place here it won't reach you won't your invincibity frames ware off. If he manages to catch you with an FTilt for whatever reason, that's also not too big a problem because you're now furthest away from the blast zone as possible, while still being on stage. If you want to jump make sure that you land outside of Snake's range or WAC anything you predict then punish with whatever you need to.

5. I think my answer to number four is also good for number five.

6. If Snake is pressuring you with his shield, it's probably with a grenade set-up, F-Tilt, Jab, Mortar, or a combination of the four. You can grab Snake out of his F-Tilt if he's using both hits. If he's using the single hits only, you can Power Shield then Jab. Snake's FTilt comes out on frame 4 but if he wants to use another single hit, he has to wait until frame 6. Since our jab comes out on frame 4, you should be able to jab him off of you. Do not try to trade hits with him. You should never try to jab and stop his F-Tilt unless its out of shield or something. With explodes (Mortars & Nade) set-ups, you sort of have to predict what Snake is going to do simply by seeing where he's setting his explosives.

EDIT: About that whole 0-death chaingrab, it's a little bit of a stretch. Because Snake's tech-chase is good and Olimar's roll is slow he does have the advantage to potentially link a bunch of grabs together, but its not inescapeable 0-death that people say it is. Eventually you can mindgame Snake into getting out of it, he'll mess up, or you'll just get lucky.

 

[IcyLight]

i never knew i could power shield into a jab on his first ftilt, sometimes i'm able to grab him in between but that's only if he doesn't do his 2nd ftilt fast. as far as edgeguarding, he makes sure i'm forced to use up-b first then he gets up and tilts, snakes utilt comes out hella fast and he can normal get up to stage before oli hits the ground. i'll try to do fthrow pivot chain grabs but not sure how that will work out against a good snake.

as far as snake 0-death with dthrow as ninja link refers to, even the best can't do it perfectly if you are sneaky. One thing to do is most snakes will get hit if you get up attack on the first one (as far as i've seen) and just not be predictable. sometimes waiting long enough before he tilts will allow you to confuse him and force him into a direction as he "predicts" you and then react. any idea if oli utilt out-prioritizes snakes ftilt? you can always tap up on joystick and get up into a utilt quick or a jab no one just normal gets up in that situation xD

 

[Fino]

i never knew i could power shield into a jab on his first ftilt, sometimes i'm able to grab him in between but that's only if he doesn't do his 2nd ftilt fast. as far as edgeguarding, he makes sure i'm forced to use up-b first then he gets up and tilts, snakes utilt comes out hella fast and he can normal get up to stage before oli hits the ground. i'll try to do fthrow pivot chain grabs but not sure how that will work out against a good snake.

as far as snake 0-death with dthrow as ninja link refers to, even the best can't do it perfectly if you are sneaky. One thing to do is most snakes will get hit if you get up attack on the first one (as far as i've seen) and just not be predictable. sometimes waiting long enough before he tilts will allow you to confuse him and force him into a direction as he "predicts" you and then react. any idea if oli utilt out-prioritizes snakes ftilt? you can always tap up on joystick and get up into a utilt quick or a jab no one just normal gets up in that situation xD

It clanks with it.... sadly, he can ftilt again before you can utilt. Your best option is to shield / roll away (not behind him). Though, I'm not sure if your jab will come out faster than his ftilt... it's worth testing. IMO the cool down lag on the utilt puts oli at a disadvantage for trying to jab


~Fino

 

[IcyLight]

ahh....what about combos against snake? can you name a few I can try to use specifically for him? i read the combo help thread and i learned combos but I just don't know the weight types for each, don't really need any for anyone but snake right now...diddy is a pain in the *** too, but i just need to be real careful against him and pick brinstar xD

 

[Excellence]

It clanks with it.... sadly, he can ftilt again before you can utilt. Your best option is to shield / roll away (not behind him). Though, I'm not sure if your jab will come out faster than his ftilt... it's worth testing. IMO the cool down lag on the utilt puts oli at a disadvantage for trying to jab


~Fino

I just went back and looked at Snake's frame data to make sure that I was right. The hitbox on F-Tilt comes out on frame 4 which is the same frame that our jab comes out on. If Snake wants to use the 2nd hit of his jab it takes 2 frames to come out (it comes out on frame 6). However, the IASA F-Tilt is frame 6. That means if he wants to cancel his F-Tilt with anything other than the 2nd part of his F-Tilt, it will happen 2 frames later. If Snake decides to use another single-hit F-Tilt the hitbox will come out on frame 6. Our jab is frame 4 so we should be able to hit him if you powershield into jab.

 

[IcyLight]

wow nice info excellence, i'll keep that into consideration ^^

 

[Dotcom]

NinjaLink tried to tell me that it's in snakes favor because snake can 0-death and olimar w/ dthrow. I lol'd at him for a moment, but it IS ninjalink... so I'm curious to hear what you guys think....


~Fino

NinjaLink told me the same thing, we tried it when we were playing, and I tried it with G- Reg to. It is never a 0 - to death.

Basically they are always expecting the roll(especially G - Reg, it's like he's reading you god ****ed mind 0_o)and you should know our roll is small enough to be covered by their dash grab if they read it right. However there are somethings you can get up and do,to interrupt it. For example against both of them there were times where I got up and jabbed, or got up and up tilted. It interrupted them and in the time that the attack finished, and they weren't stunned; it gave me some space to either start something with a grab, or run away. As long as you don't get easily read by doing the same thing in a pattern.

 

[Fino]

NinjaLink told me the same thing, we tried it when we were playing, and I tried it with G- Reg to. It is never a 0 - to death.

Basically they are always expecting the roll(especially G - Reg, it's like he's reading you god ****ed mind 0_o)and you should know our roll is small enough to be covered by their dash grab if they read it right. However there are somethings you can get up and do,to interrupt it. For example against both of them there were times where I got up and jabbed, or got up and up tilted. It interrupted them and in the time that the attack finished, and they weren't stunned; it gave me some space to either start something with a grab, or run away. As long as you don't get easily read by doing the same thing in a pattern.

That's pretty much what I said... and he didn't believe me cause he knows everything ^_^


~Fino

 

[RichBrown]

Lol, it's not a 0-death. By that same logic, I could 0-death people if I predicted their every move without getting hit.

If I get Dthrown by Snake, one of the ways I like to handle it is straight getup-Utilt. They will feel the hit on their shield and usually let go. From there I mix it up. I rarely get caught in Dthrow chains.