Need Pika v Kirb Advice Plz

[Warsaint777]

Hey guys, my local dive bar recently started a tuesday night 64 smash casual tourney and it's always fun, but my only struggles with it continue to be my brother and the guy who runs it whom both use Kirby.

Historically I have always had trouble with Kirby (me being Pikachu) almost EXCLUSIVELY. For years I thought he was broken/unbalanced/highest tier, and only recently did I discover for some reason Pikachu is considered the best player in the 64 Smash. The problem is I still have no idea WHY.

Some of my specific issues entail dealing with his over-smash. It blows my mind that Pikachu's long-charging-ass over-smash gets cancelled out by his super fast one, and what's worse is he seems to be able to do it again IMMEDIATELY after that particular clash which I have no time to react to. Is there something I can do on the ground that has priority over his over-smash?

The other thing that I recall struggling with a lot is when he attacks my shield I seem to not be able to grab him even when I press a shielded. It's like there's some sort of lagtime after I block his attack before I can grab out of shield, during which he can grab ME. Does anyone know about this or is it my imagination / poor skill?

Any other basic advice on how to deal with Kirbz as Pika is appreciated. Edge guarding tactics too of course.

Thanks brossss

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

play online.

Learn these things:
Z cancel
short hop
pivot

You shouldn't be trying to fsmash a kirby on the ground at the same time he is trying to fsmash you

beat kirby from above, when kirby is in the air


Also, play like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvTe3mcc2ak

 

[Warsaint777]

I mean I instinctively Z-cancel from years of Melee but I had no idea it actually cancelled air recovery lag in 64. Does it really? Also what air attack would you recommend most from a short-hop cuz all I do is spam f-air which only stacks damage with little throwback.

Dunno what pivot means yet but I hear the term a lot gotta look it up.

 

[MrMarbles]

Hey guys, my local dive bar recently started a tuesday night 64 smash casual tourney and it's always fun, but my only struggles with it continue to be my brother and the guy who runs it whom both use Kirby.

Historically I have always had trouble with Kirby (me being Pikachu) almost EXCLUSIVELY. For years I thought he was broken/unbalanced/highest tier, and only recently did I discover for some reason Pikachu is considered the best player in the 64 Smash. The problem is I still have no idea WHY.

Some of my specific issues entail dealing with his over-smash. It blows my mind that Pikachu's long-charging-*** over-smash gets cancelled out by his super fast one, and what's worse is he seems to be able to do it again IMMEDIATELY after that particular clash which I have no time to react to. Is there something I can do on the ground that has priority over his over-smash?

The other thing that I recall struggling with a lot is when he attacks my shield I seem to not be able to grab him even when I press a shielded. It's like there's some sort of lagtime after I block his attack before I can grab out of shield, during which he can grab ME. Does anyone know about this or is it my imagination / poor skill?

Any other basic advice on how to deal with Kirbz as Pika is appreciated. Edge guarding tactics too of course.

Thanks brossss

you are correct when u said after u guys "clank" from foreward smash kirby has the advantage. this is because pika's fsmash is very slow and kirby's is very fast. you really shouldn't use pika's fsmash in the ground game for this reason. However keep in mind that pika's fsmash is AWESOME for edge-guarding kirby.

there's not much u can do to out-prioritize his f-smash, however you still have plenty of options if you know your opponent is going to try to f-smash you. you could "pivot" away from his fsmash and then counter with a grab. you could also short hop over his f-smash and then hit him with an aerial. if you don't know what pivoting or short-hopping is then here is a video that briefly shows these techniques as well as some other techniques https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPVKRcf9hlk

you were correct again when you mentioned getting "stuck" in your shield and unable to grab your opponent. this is known as shield stun and there is a lot of it in ssb64. This is why its important to try to minimize the amount of times you sheild against kirby. instead of sheilding you are better off jumping away from your opponent's attack or pivoting once again. The reason pivoting is much better than rolling in this game is because rolling has a lot of ending lag which usually leaves you with not enough time to counter your opponent even if you manage to avoid his attack.

pika by nature is not a great ground fighter but is a great aerial fighter. he has great air attacks especially his bair and uair. once you can learn to short hop with ease pika become incredibly powerful in the air. However of his ground attacks his grab is probably his best. his back-throw has strong knockback and comes out very quickly.

 

[Warsaint777]

you are correct when u said after u guys "clank" from foreward smash kirby has the advantage. this is because pika's fsmash is very slow and kirby's is very fast. you really shouldn't use pika's fsmash in the ground game for this reason. However keep in mind that pika's fsmash is AWESOME for edge-guarding kirby.

there's not much u can do to out-prioritize his f-smash, however you still have plenty of options if you know your opponent is going to try to f-smash you. you could "pivot" away from his fsmash and then counter with a grab. you could also short hop over his f-smash and then hit him with an aerial. if you don't know what pivoting or short-hopping is then here is a video that briefly shows these techniques as well as some other techniques https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPVKRcf9hlk

you were correct again when you mentioned getting "stuck" in your shield and unable to grab your opponent. this is known as shield stun and there is a lot of it in ssb64. This is why its important to try to minimize the amount of times you sheild against kirby. instead of sheilding you are better off jumping away from your opponent's attack or pivoting once again. The reason pivoting is much better than rolling in this game is because rolling has a lot of ending lag which usually leaves you with not enough time to counter your opponent even if you manage to avoid his attack.

pika by nature is not a great ground fighter but is a great aerial fighter. he has great air attacks especially his bair and uair. once you can learn to short hop with ease pika become incredibly powerful in the air. However of his ground attacks his grab is probably his best. his back-throw has strong knockback and comes out very quickly.

Thanks for all your help so far marbles seriously. I'll look up pivoting right away on this youtube, I have NO IDEA what it is so this should be interesting. Chances are I know how to do it but just didn't know the terminology.

Do you have any advice on utilizing pikachu's tilts, or are they all pretty unnecessary? I know Utilt can juggle for a while at low % and I pretty often use f-tilt to surprise opponents but I have no idea what his d-tilt is for. Maybe low edge guarding.

 

[asianaussie]

in melee L-cancelling halves the landing lag

in 64 it removes it completely

well, technically not completely but it changes the lag to the same lag you get as if you hadn't performed an aerial at all, so it's essentially a complete cancel

 

[MrMarbles]

Thanks for all your help so far marbles seriously. I'll look up pivoting right away on this youtube, I have NO IDEA what it is so this should be interesting. Chances are I know how to do it but just didn't know the terminology.

Do you have any advice on utilizing pikachu's tilts, or are they all pretty unnecessary? I know Utilt can juggle for a while at low % and I pretty often use f-tilt to surprise opponents but I have no idea what his d-tilt is for. Maybe low edge guarding.

yes his u-tilt is great for adding up damage and setting up combos. doing a few u-tilts followed by an up-smash and then a down-b thunder is a great way to do a lot of damage and sometimes get a kill. and yes his d-tilt is mostly good for some edge guard situations.

 

[Warsaint777]

That's incredible.

Also holy crap at Pivoting. That's insanely useful. I mean the thing is that I know it's something i've done naturally/accidentally plenty of times but knowing how to do it manually is going to make all the difference especially when I'm on the ground trying to respond to his f-smash spamming.

It's also reassuring to know that this shield-sticking thing that was murdering me is a real thing that needs to be avoided. That was seriously pissing me off.

What is you guys' advice on trying to keep him off the stage when he's puffing back towards it? The main thing I do usually is just stall him with my f-air corkscrew thing but of course it has very little knockback. I've been trying to angle under him so I can u-air him downward but it's tricky for me so far.

Edit: This b*tchin' vid herbert put up is chalk full of awesome tech. Now I know the best edge guard for pika is a backwards up-air. Crazy. Btw pika isn't invincible in the middle of his up-b is he? Like when he's actually zipping or whatever.

 

[MrMarbles]

That's incredible.

Also holy crap at Pivoting. That's insanely useful. I mean the thing is that I know it's something i've done naturally/accidentally plenty of times but knowing how to do it manually is going to make all the difference especially when I'm on the ground trying to respond to his f-smash spamming.

It's also reassuring to know that this shield-sticking thing that was murdering me is a real thing that needs to be avoided. That was seriously pissing me off.

What is you guys' advice on trying to keep him off the stage when he's puffing back towards it? The main thing I do usually is just stall him with my f-air corkscrew thing but of course it has very little knockback. I've been trying to angle under him so I can u-air him downward but it's tricky for me so far.

ok so i just made a quick video to show how you can use pika's u-tilt to you advantage here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsgjZ8s0Huc&feature=youtu.be

the first combo is fairly easy to pull off but it often won't get a kill. its still a great way to stack on damage. the second combo is a bit more advanced but it shows how u can use pika's utilt and link it into a bunch of aerial attacks.

as far as edgeguarding, jumping towards your opponent when hes in the air is good, except instead up using fair you should try using up air. you dont even need to be underneath kirby for this to work because the hitbox for pika's up air goes all the way to the front of pika. you can also face away from you opponent as he puffs his way back to the stage and jump towards him and use a back air. and of course foreward smash is good when kirby is out of jumps and about to use his up-B

 

[Warsaint777]

Holy sh*t marbles you made this for me? lol how thoughtful! Lookin at it now. how are you able to record it?

Watched it. Okay so the first combo type I do quite frequently since it's easier. But dude carrying someone like that with directed backwards up airs looks tough man. Awesome though of course. Also I'm realizing now how the first and simplest thing I need to do to keep kirby off stage is look backwards and rely on back-a.

So what's the effective difference between using up-a TOWARDS your opp. as oppose to looking away from him.

 

[MrMarbles]

Holy sh*t marbles you made this for me? lol how thoughtful! Lookin at it now. how are you able to record it?

haha np i like helping people get better! i have an n64 emulator on my computer so i can just use a screen recording software to record. I also have an n64-usb adapter so i can use my 64 controller controller. there's a bunch of people that play smash64 online this way

 

[Warsaint777]

thats cool, btw resonded via edit ^^^

 

[MrMarbles]

Holy sh*t marbles you made this for me? lol how thoughtful! Lookin at it now. how are you able to record it?

Watched it. Okay so the first combo type I do quite frequently since it's easier. But dude carrying someone like that with directed backwards up airs looks tough man. Awesome though of course. Also I'm realizing now how the first and simplest thing I need to do to keep kirby off stage is look backwards and rely on back-a.

So what's the effective difference between using up-a TOWARDS your opp. as oppose to looking away from him.

good question! there isn't a huge difference. u can "carry" the opponent across the stage facing foreward or backwards. However carrying them backwards has the advantage of being able to finish the combo with a back-air which has a stronger knockback than any of his other aerials

also yes its probably easier to edgegaurd facing away rather than towards

 

[Warsaint777]

Got it, cool. So do you not mess with melee or PM?

 

[MrMarbles]

Got it, cool. So do you not mess with melee or PM?

i like playing those games but 64 is definitely my true love lol

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

I play real smash with a controller. I play fake smash with a keyboard.

Things that count as fake smash:
Emulators
Project M
Melee
Brawl

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Got it, cool. So do you not mess with melee or PM?

I liked PM and 64 the most, followed by melee, and then brawl

64 has the best community and great balance. PM has the best balance but the recoveries are kinda stupid and well crouch cancelling is overpowered vs. a good portion of the cast. If they fixed those two issues, PM would become my favorite.

My only issue with Melee is that there is a giant skill gap between Pro-Ams and the next highest, there is almost too much tech skill required.

In terms of why not brawl (and not a stupid reason like f*** metaknight or something similar)
You can't play quick in brawl or else you lose as spacing/shielding wins. I like playing aggro in melee and I couldn't get used to said defensive systems. Also, edgeguards rarely work so the game stalls a lot.

 

[Warsaint777]

You don't have a problem with melee essentially only being used for the few a-tiers characters? Cuz thats my problem.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

First off, nice avatar, Custom robo for the GC is one of my favorites

You don't have a problem with melee essentially only being used for the few a-tiers characters? Cuz thats my problem.

Top 8/10 is better than top 3 in barlw.

I said i prefer 64/PM because the balance is better than meleee which si better than brawl.

 

[Warsaint777]

Man I'm bored Tuesday night smash at my dive bar can't come soon enough. I wanna rip that dude and my bro a new one

I wish I had a 64 so I could practice :/

 

[KeroKeroppi]

You've got a great attitude. Keep it up and you'll be beating them in no time!