Need help to beat my lil cousin(bowser).

[Stackofbeef]

I'm usually better than my cousin and i main fox; still looking for a new main tho(thinking samus or Pit-lord).

My cousin's main used to be Sheik. With fox, i used to have a hard time against her. So i pick C.Falcon and i win everytime. Today, i've become a lot better so i can beat him with fox everytime.

It's to a point where i no longer considered my cousin to be good, but that's only until he decided to main Bowser.
He is like a different person, a different player when he picks him. His reads are perfect. I just can't beat him consistently. If i only got 1 stock left and he got 2, it becomes risky to stand near the edge.
Since bowser is pretty fast and got a lot of options for a big character, there's just so many ways he can punish me. For example, Sprint+grab just like any other fast character; something other big characters can't perform as efficiently based on their sprint-speed.

When ever i try to come back on stage, he dives in with (forward+A). Naturally, i will predict it and i will dodge it, but then, he jumps to the other side. At that point, he can be lucky enough to (forward+A on me which will cause my character to get smashed on the curve Or, in that same position, he may use (backward+A).
When i pick fox, i'm alright in that scenario, but i don't pick fox against bowser so...

I mostly got a chance to win with Samus for now. With samus, i spam with range attacks and bombs which annoys him a lot. The bombs are good enough to get him off me when ever he manages to grab me. At kill person, i do what i can.
Yet, i'm not very consistent with Samus. Either that, or my cousin adapt pretty fast.
What sometime seem to be random is just a good read coming from him.
His reads are good to a point where when he see's a player using double jump, to him, it means he's gonna perform a mid-air attack right away. So against C.Falcon or ganon, if they're high enough, as soon as they use double jump, my cousin uses (Forward-smash). Chances are, his opponent will use down+B at that moment he will get smashed the ****-outta here.
He did that to me once and i never even used down+B the whole game with C.Falcon. So he managed to cut me off when i thought i was unpredictable.

So i'm just looking for a counter against bowser or a tactic. I tried a mirror match, but i need more practice to beat him with bowser.
...

I can't show you how good i am, but i can tell you that i almost never lose with fox in For Glory or i always end up becoming better than my opponent online. Even when i lose as fox, i can find a character quickly enough to dominate my opponent.
1 time i kept winning as peach against a C.Falcon who was better than my fox and i rarely play with peach.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Even though you didn't provide a video or a replay demonstrating your cousin's , I'll try to base my advice around what you said about his techniques and playstyle.

I'll split this into three sections. I hope you have to the time to read all of my advice, but if not, you can just focus on the areas you want to improve upon and ignore the rest.

Approaches: You mentioned that your cousin approaches with a dash grab and that Bowser's fast dash speed surprised you. If you want to avoid getting grabbed, or to try to avoid his approaches altogether, then you should try to mix up your defensive game. Instead of just standing or shielding, you can mix it up with jumps (short-hops, full-jumps, airdodges), spotdodges, or even the occasion roll. Just be sure to be unpredictable with your options or else he'll adapt and read your movements.

If you're certain he's coming in for a grab, then throw out a fast move such as your Jab, F-tilt, or D-tilt. Hitboxes always beat grabs, so don't be afraid to throw out an attack if you see him running in with a dash grab. Bowser has a long grab range, so be sure to keep this in mind when avoiding him.

However, if your cousin chooses to dash attack you instead, then a simple hitbox might not be the right solution. Since Bowser's dash attack has ample priority, a meager jab or tilt attack won't suffice. In this case, shielding (a perfect shield would be nice), a well-timed spotdodge, and jumping would be the right options. Since Bowser's dash attack has quite a bit of endlag, you can take the opportunity to punish him if he misses.

Edgeguarding: Bowsers aren't really known for their amazing edgeguards, but if you're having trouble with your cousin F-airing you offstage, you can mix up the way you recover. Since Fox has both his Side-B and Up-B in his arsenal, you can return in many different ways. Instead of always Side-B first and aiming for the ledge, perhaps Side-B higher to avoid getting him by his awaiting Bowser. Just don't Side-B too low, or else you won't be able to Up-B back to the ledge.

Also, Bowser doesn't have many options for recovering. You could edgeguard him when he's trying to get back to the stage. Use moves like your D-air and B-air to prevent him from recovering. Be careful with Fox's F-air since it's not very suited for using offstage.

Counters: While switching to another character to have an advantage against Bowser is smart, simply spamming projectiles might not be the best approach to this situation. You could find a character that has a better match-up against Bowser, or you could focus on improving your Fox by looking through character guides and videos on YouTube. Improving your fundamentals will also help you avoid being read so easily, and maybe even score a few reads yourself.

If you just can't defeat your cousin's Bowser any other way, then using Samus is definitely an acceptable method for beating him. However, use projectile spamming as a very last resort, as spamming is widely considered to be a low-skill technique for amateurs.

And above all else, practice! Keep playing against him to get a better feel for the match-up and how to deal with Bowser. Eventually, you'll adapt to his habits and win.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Pick Sheik. It only takes a few seconds to get good with her, and she just happens to be the best character in the game.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Pick Sheik. It only takes a few seconds to get good with her, and she just happens to be the best character in the game.

But switching to a character just because they're easy to pick up and high-tiered doesn't say anything about your skill.

 

[MarioMeteor]

But switching to a character just because they're easy to pick up and high-tiered doesn't say anything about your skill.

And yet Zero is the best player in the world.

 

[GreenMonkey]

And yet Zero is the best player in the world.

That's because he really puts time and effort into his characters, instead of picking one up simply because they're high-tier. If a regular Sheik-player competes against ZeRo, I doubt they would win. Even if Sheik has a low learning curve, simply telling someone to use a high-tier character instead to win a match isn't the best advice.

 

[Wintropy]

Keep fighting your cousin. Even if you get bodied, keep fighting. Observe what he does and what habits he has, then observe your own habits and figure out how he exploits them. Play other Bowsers if you're serious about figuring out this matchup. Pick up Bowser yourself if you want to, it'll help you understand the character on an intuitive level.

Trust me: if you know what your goal is and you're willing to work towards it, experience is the best way to improve.

EDIT: Sheik does not have a low learning curve, not if you want to really use her well.

 

[Stackofbeef]

Thanks MarioMeteor .

But while sheik seem to be the best. i'm nothing like Zero or the other sheiks. I can learn, but for now, i got other characters who i feel better with. A direct counter is what i'm looking for or something to play safer against Bowser.

Thanks GreenMonkey

Fist of all, is spamming only considered to be cheap and amateurish in smash 4? Because i know a lot of competitive games where spamming is the main tactic like Ryu's fireball in Street Fighter 2. Daigo Mains Ryu and they never stop cheering for him. My opinion is, everyone plays to win, no matter what it takes.

Anyway

One of my friend got my Wii U: he need it for the new Year Eve. So i can't make a video with my cousin soon enough. What we can do is, making 2 different videos on the DS version: 1 where i play in (for glory) and 1 where he plays as bowser.

As for my tactic, all i can tell you is, i've been thought by pro melee players how to play since i was 14 years old. Today, i'm 25.
I main GanonDorf and i managed to beat a pro Asiatic who main Fox or Young Link in a exhibition once and i'm proud enough of that. Yes, they know how to perform every tricks flawlessly and that includes the shine trick.

This is just to say that i've been thought to not be predictable, to not roll so often or not at all since the alternative are most-likely better like Wave-dashing(melee only), short hops which i've mastered in all 4 versions and i'm a natural: i adapt fast enough in every games i play. I attended a real smash melee tournament and while i lost badly for the lack of training since i completely stopped playing, i still had it after the tournament where we kept on playing to improve ourselves and i proudly won atleast once against everyone of them which was my goal that night.

This is not to say i can no longer improve tho.

I go on youtube to learn new tricks and i've learn how to go on the Edgeguard Quickly while i'm still on the platform: (Sprint offstage+opposite direction + diagonal-up to grab the edge). I do it all the time. Then, i do all i can to kill them off stage. I often press down+jump+backward-attack or down smash if he ends up right below me from the edge.
My cousin is a good reader tho and Bowser can mash his up+B Which i didn't know at first and he told me that when we stopped playing.

But now, thanks to you, i got more confidence with fox. To be honest, i never really tried often enough to beat him with fox, i was too worried to find a direct counter. So next time, i will pick Fox against his Bowser and i will try to Kill him from the Edgeguard.

Edit

Thanks Wintropy

Yeah, that's a good advice. I will play as bowser just to learn his secrets. For one, i never knew that mashing up+B is what made him go higher.

 

[MarioMeteor]

That's because he really puts time and effort into his characters, instead of picking one up simply because they're high-tier. If a regular Sheik-player competes against ZeRo, I doubt they would win. Even if Sheik has a low learning curve, simply telling someone to use a high-tier character instead to win a match isn't the best advice.

I get the feeling you're taking this too seriously.
Even so, it's worth trying.

 

[GreenMonkey]

I get the feeling you're taking this too seriously.
Even so, it's worth trying.

I think I am, too lol.

But yes, it is a feasible option, just not something I would personally recommend.

Thanks MarioMeteor .

But while sheik seem to be the best. i'm nothing like Zero or the other sheiks. I can learn, but for now, i got other characters who i feel better with. A direct counter is what i'm looking for or something to play safer against Bowser.

Thanks GreenMonkey

Fist of all, is spamming only considered to be cheap and amateurish in smash 4? Because i know a lot of competitive games where spamming is the main tactic like Ryu's fireball in Street Fighter 2. Daigo Mains Ryu and they never stop cheering for him. My opinion is, everyone plays to win, no matter what it takes.

Anyway

One of my friend got my Wii U: he need it for the new Year Eve. So i can't make a video with my cousin soon enough. What we can do is, making 2 different videos on the DS version: 1 where i play in (for glory) and 1 where he plays as bowser.

As for my tactic, all i can tell you is, i've been thought by pro melee players how to play since i was 14 years old. Today, i'm 25.
I main GanonDorf and i managed to beat a pro Asiatic who main Fox or Young Link in a exhibition once and i'm proud enough of that. Yes, they know how to perform every tricks flawlessly and that includes the shine trick.

This is just to say that i've been thought to not be predictable, to not roll so often or not at all since the alternative are most-likely better like Wave-dashing(melee only), short hops which i've mastered in all 4 versions and i'm a natural: i adapt fast enough in every games i play. I attended a real smash melee tournament and while i lost badly for the lack of training since i completely stopped playing, i still had it after the tournament where we kept on playing to improve ourselves and i proudly won atleast once against everyone of them which was my goal that night.

This is not to say i can no longer improve tho.

I go on youtube to learn new tricks and i've learn how to go on the Edgeguard Quickly while i'm still on the platform: (Sprint offstage+opposite direction + diagonal-up to grab the edge). I do it all the time. Then, i do all i can to kill them off stage. I often press down+jump+backward-attack or down smash if he ends up right below me from the edge.
My cousin is a good reader tho and Bowser can mash his up+B Which i didn't know at first and he told me that when we stopped playing.

But now, thanks to you, i got more confidence with fox. To be honest, i never really tried often enough to beat him with fox, i was too worried to find a direct counter. So next time, i will pick Fox against his Bowser and i will try to Kill him from the Edgeguard.

Edit

Thanks Wintropy

Yeah, that's a good advice. I will play as bowser just to learn his secrets. For one, i never knew that mashing up+B is what made him go higher.

You're welcome.

Even though it seems like parts of my advice wouldn't apply to you, I still hope you can beat your cousin's Bowser one day!

 

[MarioMeteor]

But jokes aside, if I were you, I'd look for characters who do well against Bowser and see which one you like most from there. I recommend either Roy or Mario, but I'm obviously biased. Bowser could just be a problem character for you.

 

[11wildy]

I would say, stick with Fox. You will get better and learn more tricks to beat Bowser with. Also try to play Bowser, to find out what his good moves are and which can be punished. Then you can use that information to check what moves you need to watch out for and what you can punish.