nair>shine

[HelloAxi]

Is a falling Nair a viable option or is shield able to go up before shine can go off?
I want to know how fast they can react if I l-cancel, if I dont, and if it changes if you bring the opponent down with you (they are also in the air).
Thanks.

 

[Soft Serve]

If it hits and you l-cancel then you can always shine before they can do anything. If you bring your opponent down with you, it depends on if you hit them with the landing hit-box, but most times you'll either combo with it or its a frame trap.
If its on shield, then nair is completely neutral on shield so you can shine there as well.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

I have found that nair shining with is not always a great option especially on shield. Depending on what part of the nair you hit, they often have time to grab.

you can also nair gimp if you fastfall a nair off stage, wolf can still recover.

 

[oksas]

I'm actually really curious about this because I'm hearing mixed opinions (as is the case here) and I have been punished for doing nair shine on shield a number of times so I'm just wondering why this is happening. does anyone have the frame data for this? thought there used to be a stickied frame data thread in here. @ Soft Serve

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

More often then not I get punished for it. Not sure about the frame data, but I tend to avoid nair > shine.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

Actually here is a smashboards link to the data.

http://smashboards.com/threads/wolf-hitboxes.334430/

 

[Soft Serve]

I'm actually really curious about this because I'm hearing mixed opinions (as is the case here) and I have been punished for doing nair shine on shield a number of times so I'm just wondering why this is happening. does anyone have the frame data for this? thought there used to be a stickied frame data thread in here. @ Soft Serve

Actually here is a smashboards link to the data.

http://smashboards.com/threads/wolf-hitboxes.334430/

yeah that thread has stuff, theres a "wolf's shield pressure" thread somewhere that I tried to go frame by frame for wolf's 3.02 moves on shield, like what KirbyKaze used to do for Fox.

Its not specified exactly in the changelog, but from what PMDT has told us wolf's fresh nair basically went from being +0 on shield to being -1 on shield, because they took some of the damage from the landing hitbox and spread it out through the multi hit parts of the move. I honestly haven't done any real labbing with the frame advance to check it completely, been spending that time on Diddy things. I'm certain Neon would know for sure, probably 8adge too because everytime I mention him he normally comes in and corrects me.

Its -1 on shield fresh, so the only things that stop nair>shine on shield should be 1 frame invincibile up-bs, and the shine should trade/clank with frame 1 hitboxes on up-bs.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

You can still buffer a roll out of nair shine though right?

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

Softserve what is your routine for shield pressure? Do you nair-shine, multi-shine?

 

[Soft Serve]

Pretty sure nair shine should catch buffered rolls when done perfect

I don't play wolf much anymore, but when I do I do cross up dairs and nair>shinegrab mostly

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

Why did you switch to diddy vs wolf?

 

[Soft Serve]

Mained Diddy since like summer 2013, switched to fox/wolf mid 3.02 but Diddy is just a lot more fun. Not better than the spacies, he has a pretty horrible MU spread, but so many goddamn tools i can't stay away from him.

 

[oksas]

hmm alright. thanks guys :D I'll be testing stuff in debug and see what I can come up with

 

[BearFist]

Just chiming in here to confirm that nair -> shine does in fact beat any option other than invincible up b oos or holding shield if you tap their shield with it, and if they hold shield you can do multishine or shinegrab. Nair is incredibly good on shield, and will hit confirm in to shine while they're still in hitstun thanks to the grounded hitbox. The only thing the opponent can do about that is trying to sdi the grounded hitbox right or left far enough away that they don't get hit by the shine, but the SDI multiplier isn't incredibly great and this isn't realistic to achieve if you center the nair well.

This is balanced out by the fact that nair has terrible priority since the hitbox is basically just your hurtbox and only does a single hit of a multihit move if it trades, so you only really want to do it if you're sure it will either hit shield or a body and there's no risk of trading.

 

[Badge]

Its not specified exactly in the changelog, but from what PMDT has told us wolf's fresh nair basically went from being +0 on shield to being -1 on shield, because they took some of the damage from the landing hitbox and spread it out through the multi hit parts of the move.

Randomly clicking on threads twice per day is somehow more effective than name searching. NAir's -2 I believe. There's also frame 2 invincible rolls, wich get out either way (e.g. Jigg's forward roll).

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

So recently while playing around with wolf, I realized my style has changed. Instead of following up with a Dair as I did in the begginning of my wolf career, but I tend to follow up with Nair a large amount of the time. Now I basically use Nair out of shine, hardly use Dair anymore inside of shine combos. Is this bad or good? Should I try to switch back to Dair again as a followup

 

[Chef2]

So recently while playing around with wolf, I realized my style has changed. Instead of following up with a Dair as I did in the begginning of my wolf career, but I tend to follow up with Nair a large amount of the time. Now I basically use Nair out of shine, hardly use Dair anymore inside of shine combos. Is this bad or good? Should I try to switch back to Dair again as a followup

On paper, nair is always the best shield pressure option. If you follow this link to the shield pressure thread and scroll to the bottom, I broke down every shine->aerial->shine combination and highlighted the windows where your opponent can act. http://smashboards.com/threads/wolfs-shield-pressure.360363/page-3

Now just cause nair is our fastest aerial and it pretty much always links into shine, it doesn't mean it's the only option you should use. Smash allows for creativity and mix ups, and using these keeps your opponent guessing and can create new scenarios for you to capitalize on. However, I would complete avoid uair and fair, as dair is a better slow start up aerial on shield (compared to fair) and Bair and nair are better quick start up aerials (compared to uair). Nair is really good for moving from the front to the back of the enemy's shield. It also shield pokes nicely. However, I like to toss in dairs and bairs for beefier, more noticeable hits on shield, especially once I get behind shield. Bair I think is very underused for pressuring, as long as your back is to the opponent, it's easy to hit the sweetspot and the move has pretty small windows for your opponent to act. You can adjust these windows by delaying the timing of your Bair. Dair is like a slower Bair but easier to hit and no sourspot, avoid using it in front of shields unless you full hop else you'll get shield grabbed by a lot of the cast.