My Gripe with Project M

[zpxociv]

I think project M is too much like melee and that it missed the chance it had to become something even more advanced, the biggest shame. The main thing would be L-cancel, which may as well just be an automatic effect, not something you pretty much do every time. That's a pointless chore and at the very least, it would be nice if they would add a toggle for "auto l-cancel" in the gameplay options. Then everyone can have their way and I'm sure tourney rules would always have them not auto so don't worry about that. If you don't want an option like this to be available then you're just as bad as Sakurai and you absolutely deserve the awful things he did to the last two smash games.

 

[metaXzero]

I think project M is too much like melee and that it missed the chance it had to become something even more advanced, the biggest shame. The main thing would be L-cancel, which may as well just be an automatic effect, not something you pretty much do every time. That's a pointless chore and at the very least, it would be nice if they would add a toggle for "auto l-cancel" in the gameplay options. Then everyone can have their way and I'm sure tourney rules would always have them not auto so don't worry about that. If you don't want an option like this to be available then you're just as bad as Sakurai and you absolutely deserve the awful things he did to the last two smash games.

Did you miss the part where the M stood for Melee until recently? While PM isn't holding itself to being strictly Melee 2.0 now, that was still one of the founding things for the project and it still wants to be close to that. This isn't Brawl+. I DO agree L-cancel is a pointless mechanic, but it's still a Melee mechanic and contributes to the Melee feel (and some people like it). A toggle would be nice, but that's far from an essential "we need this right now" type of thing.

Though what exactly do you mean by "chance it had to become something even more advanced"? Did you want it to go crazy with mechanics and start adding things like bursts, alpha counters, and high-low mixups?

 

[zpxociv]

Though what exactly do you mean by "chance it had to become something even more advanced"? Did you want it to go crazy with mechanics and start adding things like bursts, alpha counters, and high-low mixups?

Smash seems to be lacking something that would help it become more fluid and faster-paced for slower characters like Bowser and Ganon. With the way Fox can run circles around them, they need something that can allow them to continuously attack and even change direction rapidly while attacking. I came up with a new technique calling "Spin" that allows an attack to be performed while turning around, swinging the extended limb that's attacking around. You can even continue to attack and spin in the other direction if you want, increasing the spin speed and power. The downside is a risk of becoming dizzy if you do this too much(blood builds up in the head) but it should greatly help slower characters keep up with spacies and the like. Another cool feature of spin is that if someone tries to grab you when you were already spinning an attack, it actually flings them around you and off of you, countering the grab. Spin can be done from a run or even in the air and if you do a 2nd spin, you'll maintain your forward momentum. Spins are about momentum physics and if you could even change specials with them, such as turning a Falcon kick into a spin kick, there's all sorts of things that could be done with them and the execution is simply smash tilting back right after input of an attack.

Also, a vertical spin might be useful for up and down airs, allowing them to switch places. A Spin mechanic could do all sorts of things. You can all go ahead and hate on it. Knock it before you try it for artificial reasons you gave it yourself even though it doesn't have to work that way. New ideas are simply not welcome here in Meleeland.

 

[metaXzero]

Smash seems to be lacking something that would help it become more fluid and faster-paced for slower characters like Bowser and Ganon. With the way Fox can run circles around them, they need something that can allow them to continuously attack and even change direction rapidly while attacking. I came up with a new technique calling "Spin" that allows an attack to be performed while turning around, swinging the extended limb that's attacking around. You can even continue to attack and spin in the other direction if you want, increasing the spin speed and power. The downside is a risk of becoming dizzy if you do this too much(blood builds up in the head) but it should greatly help slower characters keep up with spacies and the like. Another cool feature of spin is that if someone tries to grab you when you were already spinning an attack, it actually flings them around you and off of you, countering the grab. Spin can be done from a run or even in the air and if you do a 2nd spin, you'll maintain your forward momentum. Spins are about momentum physics and if you could even change specials with them, such as turning a Falcon kick into a spin kick, there's all sorts of things that could be done with them and the execution is simply smash tilting back right after input of an attack.

Also, a vertical spin might be useful for up and down airs, allowing them to switch places. A Spin mechanic could do all sorts of things. You can all go ahead and hate on it. Knock it before you try it for artificial reasons you gave it yourself even though it doesn't have to work that way. New ideas are simply not welcome here in Meleeland.

Well as said, PM was intended to be Melee-fied Brawl. That's its identity from day 1. Something like what you're suggesting is best saved for a project that doesn't have such a goal in mind from day 1.

But as for the idea itself, it sounds like it would need a meter system or some other way to limit just having it at any moment. It basically makes endlag on attacks near non-existent since characters could just spin to counter any attempts to punish them. The spin cap makes little difference because generally, players would only spin like once or twice and it would just be in reaction to what their opponent does. And the vertical spin would be worthless on most aerials and maybe slightly useful on others (like MAYBE D-air->reverse D-air chains for Mario and Jiggs. Overall, it's way too spotty as a mechanic. Definetely too crazy for PM.

 

[mimgrim]

Everything you listed was pretty much bad game design, so I can only feel the removal of them was very warranted.

Melee top tiers are bad game design. So I can only feel that changing them is very warranted.

Yeah. I just went there.

 

[Phaiyte]

Melee top tiers are bad game design. So I can only feel that changing them is very warranted.

Yeah. I just went there.

And it happened.

Yeah. I just went there.

 

[mimgrim]

And it happened.

Yeah. I just went there.

Only happened to 4 of them. Only two of those 4 got a change worth writing home to. The small changes to the other 2 did nothing to really fix them. And despite the changes 3 of the 4 are still very similar to how they were in Melee and weren't changed drastically.

 

[Phaiyte]

Only happened to 4 of them. Only two of those 4 got a change worth writing home to. The small changes to the other 2 did nothing to really fix them. And despite the changes 3 of the 4 are still very similar to how they were in Melee and weren't changed drastically.

Man, it's almost like they were fairly well designed in the first place and only needing minor fixes ;^)

 

[mimgrim]

Man, it's almost like they were fairly well designed in the first place and only needing minor fixes ;^)

Except they actually weren't.

 

[Phaiyte]

Except they actually weren't.

Except the people that actually believe that are a minority. All these moe pony dudes asking for a fast paced game and then asking for it to be watered down to poop because they can't git gud~

 

[Ningildo]

It's almost like this thread is derailing at sonic speed.

Yes, I went there.

Let's not have a "melee tops were well/badly designed" discussion, cause it's irrelevant to the thread topic.

Hell, the thread was basically dead prior to ^. Do this via pm, maybe? Just saying.

 

[Xermo]

lol why'd they unlock the thread; it's nothing more than a circle jerk at this point

 

[Player -0]

Did you miss the part where the M stood for Melee until recently?

Would just like to point out that this is wrong, this has been a common misconception though.

 

[metaXzero]

Would just like to point out that this is wrong, this has been a common misconception though.

A project that originated as an intended Melee 2.0 mod that even at one point had projectmelee as their twitter. It no longer means Melee NOW, but why would you doubt that the M originally meant Melee? You really think the original idea of that letter was just because they like M's for reasons unrelated to Melee?

 

[W.A.C.]

Regarding my idea of how air dodging could be changed, why not just have free fall states removed from the air dodging mechanics but make it where you can't do a second aerial dodge and you lose all your jumps? That would give air dodging mechanics its own unique feel that takes influences from Melee, but further improve upon what Melee did.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Just being able to attack out of an airdodge, let alone up-B, takes out most of the risk and commitment. Airdodging is not supposed to be that safe.

 

[Juken]

I think it's the audio for the game. I installed the Melee SFX pack and it made a lot of characters 10x more satisfying to use, ESPECIALLY Marth.

The "fwoosh" sound from Melee when you get hit hard needs to be added in 4.0, it's also one thing that's just so great. Wouldn't mind them incorporating a lot more Melee SFX instead of trying to make "toned down" versions of what's already available like the new sword sound.

 

[W.A.C.]

Just being able to attack out of an airdodge, let alone up-B, takes out most of the risk and commitment. Airdodging is not supposed to be that safe.

Considering how the recoveries are much worse in this game now, modifying the air dodging in that way would help to further separate this game from both Melee and Brawl, while also creating unique new strategies for how players deal with situations.

 

[Samuch]

Considering how the recoveries are much worse in this game now, modifying the air dodging in that way would help to further separate this game from both Melee and Brawl, while also creating unique new strategies for how players deal with situations.

They are still better than they are in Melee. Air dodging is supposed to be a last resort. Literally. It's called "helplessness" for a reason. You are supposed to be helpless.

 

[MegaMissingno]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Airdodges are fine the way they are.

 

[Player -0]

A project that originated as an intended Melee 2.0 mod that even at one point had projectmelee as their twitter. It no longer means Melee NOW, but why would you doubt that the M originally meant Melee? You really think the original idea of that letter was just because they like M's for reasons unrelated to Melee?

They used Project Melee as their Twitter because Project M was taken.

Project M originated by a couple of people seeing if Melee Falco could be added to Brawl.

iirc Project M dropped Melee really early in the demos.

 

[Samuch]

They used Project Melee as their Twitter because Project M was taken.

Project M originated by a couple of people seeing if Melee Falco could be added to Brawl.

iirc Project M dropped Melee really early in the demos.

Oh yeah, what does the M stand for?

You say that the M never stood for Melee and then you go on to say they dropped "Project Melee" early on. That doesn't make sense if it never stood for Melee.

 

[Player -0]

Oh yeah, what does the M stand for?

You say that the M never stood for Melee and then you go on to say they dropped "Project Melee" early on. That doesn't make sense if it never stood for Melee.

Currently it doesn't stand for anything. I was specifically referring to people thinking the M stood for Melee until recently.

 

[Ningildo]

The point was that someone was using Project Melee as a justification for whatever mechanic that is present both here and in PM, I think, don't really care.

I'm pretty sure that when we're arguing over what a letter means just for the sake of it, it's a clear sign that a thread has lived on for long enough. And needs to get locked so people posting here can do something productive (which is anything else in this case) instead of arguing trivial details that, in the grand scheme of this (very, very enjoyable) game, mean ****.

 

[Diraga]

L-cancel is a pointless mechanic

Let's get rid of dribbling in basketball while we're at it.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

And this thread, too. :^)

 

[Joe73191]

I find it silly that there is so much fox and falco hate. Anyway 3.5 took away too many things and went overboard with their scissors. They really only needed to trim a couple aspects of a couple characters and maybe buff IC a bit. lol. However I think the new features added to 3.5 are great but as far as how characters played I feel 3.02 was a little better.

 

[Ningildo]

Let's get rid of dribbling in basketball while we're at it.

Cherry picking and derailing your own thread at its finest.

It's only a matter of time before the ****storm, now. Unless, you know, this gets locked and save trigger-typing happy people some time instead of beating a dead horse.

I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but Op's issue has been addressed page 1. What is the point of leaving it open if it's gonna devolve into a bigger turd then it already is?

Inb4 ignored by the posters as a discussion phobic post.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Seth gets both a Dragon Punch and Spinning Piledriver on the same moveset, creating perfect 50/50 mixups. But he's the most fragile character in the game, and if he can't get that knockdown to establish momentum he's in trouble. He has to play perfect, one mistake can end it for him.
Phoenix gets to revive herself when she dies and becomes stronger. But her base health is the lowest, it costs 5 bars to revive, and after she does her health will decay over time.
Johnny can make his Mist Finer unblockable and level it up. But the unblockable MF is a difficult setup and leveling it up requires him to hit with his coin special first, which he can only even attempt a limited number of times. Additionally, all his pokes are very unsafe and his mixups are not great.
Valentine is fast and can put on incredible pressure with her combos and blockstrings, and she can even lag the opponent's controls. But without a reversal she can't deal with pressure well herself, and she lacks good assists to be a team player.

The difference is that they get a large of tools and options on top of the amazing properties they already have. I don't mind jack of all trades characters as long as they don't outclass others that should have those traits as their defining characteristic.

But the issue others, and I have sort, is that I don't feel any weakness they have is designed fairly in comparison to other characters.

Let's get rid of dribbling in basketball while we're at it.

This isn't basketball.

This is game design.

 

[robosteven]

I know that posting in this thread in itself is just asking for trouble, but

I have a lot of gripes with PM, but they're usually gripes I have with Melee as well.

for instance, why can't tether-grabs grab airborne opponents
why don't sidestep dodges come out on frame 1
why don't more people know the Olimar matchup like seriously I should never beat anyone if this character is as bad as all of you claim he is

 

[Player -0]

He's so bad he's good. Because no one knows the MU.

 

[robosteven]

he also has like seven kill confirms but don't tell anyone I said that or they'll take some away

 

[Player -0]

Tell me more

 

[robosteven]

Tell me more

z button

 

[Cpt.]

But only lately have I finally pinned down what it is that feels off about Project M:

Everyone is too good.

Instead of just making every character viable, every character was made into Fox. Some characters are fun because they aren't the best. It takes true creativity and skill to succeed with them. I think that if the PMDT aimed to make every character as good as a low-A tier character, PM would be much more enjoyable and would feel right. But if characters like DDD and Yoshi are as technically fast and easy to pick up as Fox in Melee, it just looks and feels wrong and unnatural.

Does anyone agree or at least understand where I am coming from? What are your thoughts?

So you'd rather have 8 characters to play/watch as opposed to 20-41?

It may be true that everyone is better and the tier list gap is a lot tighter than in Melee, but everyone is definitely far from being Fox level "too good". Once we start seeing some PM nationals I guarantee that a maximum of 15 different characters will take nationals. Sure a lot are good, but only some of them have the potential to be top tier. The game is just so early in development and play testing that we don't know who the best characters are yet. I'm sure people used a lot more characters in Melee when they first found out about wave dashing then just the S tiers.

 

[GabPR]

My gripe with the PM community are the people who are never satisfied until their mains have been buffed to S++ tier

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Yeah, so, the OP's gripe was literally "Everyone is too good." and he got mocked for it the moment he posted this crap, so can we get it locked already?

 

[robosteven]

My gripe with the PM community are the people who are never satisfied until their mains have been buffed to S++ tier

bruh I just want my bugs fixed, my char can be bad as long as his moves actually work consistently ;_;

 

[GabPR]

bruh I just want my bugs fixed, my char can be bad as long as his moves actually work consistently ;_;

You are a special exeption