My Gripe with Project M

[Diraga]

Firstly, I need to start by saying that I love Project M. PM is the reason I got into competitive smash. If I never found PM, I never would have started playing Melee again. So I have to thank all of the PM members that made the mod what it is and allowed it to become such a big phenomenon.

Now, I started with Project M, and I loved it much more than I did clunky-old Melee. I would even be disappointed when no one at friendlies wanted to play PM, and I would end up playing Melee instead. Because of that, I started practicing Melee more. And then I started getting the hang of it, and I realized that Melee had something that Project M didn't that I couldn't pin down. Captain Falcon (my main) was worse and harder to control, but everything about him felt more satisfying to play.

I thought it was the graphics and nostalgia. After all, Captain Falcon looks much more built in Melee, and the old-school cool factor definitely impacted the enjoyability. I think those may be a factor to why I am more partial to Melee, but that is just preference. But that still wasn't it. Something about the game just felt right.

I thought it was the sound effects. The hit sounds in Melee (and 64) are so much more satisfying to hear than Brawl's. But I downloaded them onto my version of Project M, and although it sounded nicer, not much changed.

But only lately have I finally pinned down what it is that feels off about Project M:

Everyone is too good.

Instead of just making every character viable, every character was made into Fox. Some characters are fun because they aren't the best. It takes true creativity and skill to succeed with them. I think that if the PMDT aimed to make every character as good as a low-A tier character, PM would be much more enjoyable and would feel right. But if characters like DDD and Yoshi are as technically fast and easy to pick up as Fox in Melee, it just looks and feels wrong and unnatural.

Does anyone agree or at least understand where I am coming from? What are your thoughts?

 

[MechWarriorNY]

...I understand.
The solution is to

instead of lamenting bad matchups.

 

[Xermo]

Everyone is too good.

Haha, good one.

 

[steelguttey]

yes because olimar is fox tier

where did this even come from what

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Keep practicing, read up more, watch more tourny videos. You'll get there.

 

[Rᴏb]

But if characters like DDD and Yoshi are as technically fast and easy to pick up as Fox in Melee

Removed'''

 

[steelguttey]

also, stop being a ****ing low tier hero. if you want to play a character you like, perfectly fine. but dont play a bad character because the character is bad. play it because you like the character.

 

[Diraga]

Keep practicing, read up more, watch more tourny videos. You'll get there.

This isn't what I mean. I'm not complaining that characters are too good to beat. I think Project M is a great competitive game right now, and I could certainly get better at it.

What I am saying is that PM should aim to make every character have the ability of the lower-A tiers and upper-B tiers instead of Fox and Falco. Some high tier characters in Melee had moves that were considered bad to use in most situations, and that made it fantastic to see them implemented in higher level play. But in PM, every character is refined so all of their moves are good (with exceptions)

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

This isn't what I mean. I'm not complaining that characters are too good to beat. I think Project M is a great competitive game right now, and I could certainly get better at it.

What I am saying is that PM should aim to make every character have the ability of the lower-A tiers and upper-B tiers instead of Fox and Falco. Some high tier characters in Melee had moves that were considered bad to use in most situations, and that made it fantastic to see them implemented in higher level play. But in PM, every character is refined so all of their moves are good (with exceptions)

There are many people here that disagree with your statement and call your claims false, esp w/ this update.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

What.
The hell.
Am I reading.

 

[Narpas_sword]

also, stop being a ****ing low tier hero. if you want to play a character you like, perfectly fine. but dont play a bad character because the character is bad. play it because you like the character.

this.

The only thing worse than a tier ***** is a tier hipster.

 

[Beorn]

I'm really sorry you are getting hated on for this man, but I agree with you.

I've always thought the game would be more fun if everyone was doc level. The melee top and high tiers have so many ridiculous moves like peaches dsmash, falcons knee, marths fsmash, foxes, a lot of foxes stuff. I would rather the game have less crazy moves and more neutral and thought.

What you are describing is why 3.5 feels so much better to a lot of people. The game has less "too good" or "janky" stuff in it.

I think there is still work to be done weeding this **** out of the game. This really is why melee feels so good to me. Before 3.5 came out I basically dropped pm, because of the "too good" characters in it. It's like the difference between an anime fighter and a traditional fighter like street fighter. When everyone can't do full screen bull**** into feature length combos the game can't focus more on neutral and good player interaction.

Again I'm sorry you are getting hated on so hard here, but your line of thinking is shared by quite a few good players in the community. Even if you don't see it here. I expect more fat trimming to come, but I don't expect it to be melee A- tier. Unfortunately the characters that made this game so popular would have to be changed to much to get to that level.

I recommend Melee SD remix if you want to play something similar to what you are describing here.

 

[metaXzero]

PM Falcon has basically one key difference from Melee Falcon; his recovery is slightly better thanks to the buffed Side-B. I DO mean slightly. Falcon still gets gimped to all hell, still gets juggled to all hell before that gimp, and his match-ups vs. the Melee top tiers are near unchanged. Yet, you don't feel like enough of an underdog playing Falcon? What is this junk?

I'd honestly hate the idea of nerfing the cast to Doc level while Fox/Falco remain untouched JUST to fulfill low tier hero fantasies. I know that's not why I play PM and I know I don't need that to feel "satisfying" with Kirby.

 

[Strong Badam]

you're a patch late to be calling everyone too good lol

 

[Ramz289]

It's already been said but just to make sure

You are playing 3.5, right?

 

[Shokio]

Yeah, this would've made since if it was 3.0. Are you sure you're playing 3.5?

Cause PM is currently the opposite of what you're saying - nobody is as good as Fox. Tons of characters on this roster require so much more skill to play now, such as ZSS, Pit, Ivy, and some are straight awful such as Olimar.

If anything, I would say PM's problem is that some of the Melee top-tiers are allowed leniency. Leniency the Brawl chars and some of the Melee low-tiers aren't allowed to have. All the silly stuff was taken away from the Brawl characters for the most part, while Fox/Falco keep their silly shines and screen-wide lasers and Falcon just grabs --> knee the entire roster seemingly regardless of percentage. All this simply to "match the Melee data", although, obviously, Melee was not a well designed or even finished game from a character standpoint.

But that's for a whole 'nother thread.

 

[ChiePet]

3.02 Mewtwo/Pit are too good
3.5 M2/Pit are absolutely not.

Better than in Melee doesn't mean isn't still ****. Honestly, i think imo Fox still isn't DaBess im PM either.

 

[Soupchicken]

Everyone is getting so defensive, but the OP is making sense. By balancing to Fox and the rest of the melee top-tiers you end up making some characters too strong. Do you want a game where everyone is 50/50 against Fox but the rest of their matchup spread is full of 80/20s and 20/80s? If your character is strong enough to beat Fox you probably have some aspect of your kit that will completely shut-down another character on the roster.

I think 3.5 still has some way to go. Some recoveries are still too good. Some characters are too strong. Shooting for a less-potent top-tier than melee will make for a better game.

 

[Mean Green]

Some recoveries are still too good.

Don't look at them from a casual standpoint. They're all reasonably flawed.

spend too much time recovering, you can get a free hit / tether = free hit.
spends too much time recovering (from far) / using Nado = free hit.
can't recover once you kill Nana.
is a ***** to recover with.
Vulerable in up-B. If he uses Side B, that should be his stock (get in the way, and hit him or tank a hit).
Gets distance but is still predictable, try watching them.
Won't recover low without taking damage, or having the ledge already occupied.
Can't just recover onstage for free anymore without platform canceling.
And everyone else is a free edge guard as Shokio helped explain below.

 

[ChiePet]

What about everyone you didn't mention?
Well put reasoning for the aforementioned ones though, kudos.

 

[Mean Green]

I just addressed the ones I've heard people complain about.

 

[Shokio]

Everyone is getting so defensive, but the OP is making sense. By balancing to Fox and the rest of the melee top-tiers you end up making some characters too strong. Do you want a game where everyone is 50/50 against Fox but the rest of their matchup spread is full of 80/20s and 20/80s? If your character is strong enough to beat Fox you probably have some aspect of your kit that will completely shut-down another character on the roster.

I think 3.5 still has some way to go. Some recoveries are still too good. Some characters are too strong. Shooting for a less-potent top-tier than melee will make for a better game.

No, he's not making sense, because the majority of the roster are NOT good as Fox. Nor are they balanced around him. There a very few characters that can go 50/50 with Fox (those being Marth, Roy....)

Hell, even in 3.0, Fox was doing just fine against the broken likes of Mewtwo and Diddy. So the fact that the 3.0 top-tiers were drastically nerfed - while Fox just got a slight tap on the wrist for his Up-Smash - shows just how much better Fox is compared to the rest of the roster. There's a reason why ZeRo and M2K would just go Fox after getting the bracket reset on them and then proceed to win the tourney 3-1 or 3-0 in the last set. Fox is Fox.

What about everyone you didn't mention?
Well put reasoning for the aforementioned ones though, kudos.

Doesn't get much distance as-is, and even when he can get to the ledge it's easy to grab from him.
and DK have very linear recoveries and it can be pretty tough to sweet-spot appropriately with them. Also, they die guaranteed from any meteor of footstool due to lack of vertical recovery.
You need very good DI to get back with Roy. While the actual hitboxes on the attack are great, distance-wise it's mediocre, so you HAVE to have your 2nd jump if you have any hopes of getting back.
Has trouble recovering horizontally. It's also easy to grab the ledge from him and any missed sweetspot is easily punished and a stock.
Grab the ledge, force them on-stage, punish.
Footstools, spikes, and meteors eat him alive.
Has the worst recovery in Smash history. With 50 frames of punishable endlag now too.
Tether punish.
Can't recovery horizontally unless spindash is used, which is easily punishable.
Have great recoveries, yeah, but it's because they're supposed to be masters of the sky, it's part of their playstyle and design. And even then, they're not without their weaknesses. Take away their jumps by repeatedly swatting them and force them to Up-B.
Is so light, she deserves to recover.
Keep him in the air, watch how many Up-B's and Side-B's he uses, then knock'em off-stage. He's done. And like Zard and Kirby, the distance he can cover is part of his aerial-focused gameplay, so yeah.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Fox isn't even as good as fox in this version, your cries have fallen upon deaf ears

 

[Sape]

if everyone is top tier, then everyone is lowtier. have fun playing evrything

As to the actual problem, there could be the thing that a lot of matches are decided with counterpicking since there are so many viable options, but right now the game isnt even close to be figured out and every character being perfected.

 

[GaretHax]

This is an issue the PM team has shown obvious concern and interest in resolving, read the patchnotes for 3.5, this update fixed alot of what you're complaining about, kb and launch angles were tweaked, sourspots were added, movement was made less defining and normalized, etc. (I've been through this rant too many times to write it all again). Long story short, they're working on it, this update heavily reflects that, but bear in mind what you've been playing has been a beta, in beta's characters are fleshed out in very straightforward "core" designs that do lack some of the nuances you touch on. This is done ON PURPOSE to ensure that the character functions how the dev's envisioned and has the ability to perform well among the other cast members and are sub sequentially brought back in line. Many other, often broken or borderline broken, mechanics, moves, and properties tend to be distributed in beta's as well, this is done to see what can exist in the game environment on each character without becoming a defining trait or over-centralizing option, sometimes ridiculously good moves or properties (falcon's knee, peach d-smash, etc.) can actually remain without creating any issues (counterplay, lack of utility, poor or somewhat non-synergetic character properties).

TLDR: You're not alone in the feeling, but many of the things you take issue with were necessary parts of the design process and are currently being normalized or having variance and depth added back to them. Hopefully more changes similar to those implemented in 3.5 will be present in the next version, in the meantime this is, without a doubt, the deepest and most interest version of PM to date. (I still almost went on the entire rant again...............)

 

[ChiePet]

I feel a lot of 'complaints' really just come from going from a version of the game that was a bit too trigger happy to a version that pulled back and made things punishable, causing all kinds of players to both shrug or just be unhappy; I was that way with Pit.

As for PM as a whole, no idea what you could really say about an unfinished product other than "it doesnt feel finished" in which case Duh.

 

[Boardwalk]

who should be the best character??? do we want a game where practicing enough characters should give you advantageous match-ups? or do we want to see a game where devoting time and practice into one character and utilizing all the tools you are given so you have atleast a fighting chance in any matchup? fox is so good because people have played as fox for 14 years. you also cant ignore the technical demands of fox. this leads back to my first question, the best character in the game should be the hardest character to play. pm has a handful of other chars that you could compare fox to in terms of difficulty to use but none of those characters have been explored as much as fox. pm is still a young game and i think people are to quick to ask for buffs/nerfs before trying to find a strategy to combat a certain character. is it possible to create over 30 characters that can fight eachother fairly? i can agree with OP on this. maybe have ten or so top tiers. try to balance them as best as possible. then let the players use there imagination and strategy to use those characters to there advantage. low tiers can still have good matchups against one or two of the top ten but get bopped by the other 8.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

who should be the best character??? do we want a game where practicing enough characters should give you advantageous match-ups? or do we want to see a game where devoting time and practice into one character and utilizing all the tools you are given so you have atleast a fighting chance in any matchup? fox is so good because people have played as fox for 14 years. you also cant ignore the technical demands of fox. this leads back to my first question, the best character in the game should be the hardest character to play. pm has a handful of other chars that you could compare fox to in terms of difficulty to use but none of those characters have been explored as much as fox. pm is still a young game and i think people are to quick to ask for buffs/nerfs before trying to find a strategy to combat a certain character. is it possible to create over 30 characters that can fight eachother fairly? i can agree with OP on this. maybe have ten or so top tiers. try to balance them as best as possible. then let the players use there imagination and strategy to use those characters to there advantage. low tiers can still have good matchups against one or two of the top ten but get bopped by the other 8.

Ideally, (emphasis on ideal), I assume people want the ability to pick any character and devote their time into them to make them the best character they can be. Yes, bad matchups will and must exist, but not overwhelmingly bad, (anything worse than a 7-3, which I don't think PM has a lot of anyway), but reasonably challenging. Personally, I would like a game where my decisions on how I use a character's kit and toolset should decide whether or not I'm successful when playing against another person. This creates meaningful interaction in gameplay. PM is gearing towards this direction imo. I dunno how anyone else feels on this.

 

[Boardwalk]

Ideally, (emphasis on ideal), I assume people want the ability to pick any character and devote their time into them to make them the best character they can be. Yes, bad matchups will and must exist, but not overwhelmingly bad, (anything worse than a 7-3, which I don't think PM has a lot of anyway), but reasonably challenging. Personally, I would like a game where my decisions on how I use a character's kit and toolset should decide whether or not I'm successful when playing against another person. This creates meaningful interaction in gameplay. PM is gearing towards this direction imo. I dunno how anyone else feels on this.

i can see your point and i agree with it, but i just don't think that balancing that many characters is possible unless you just give every character a super janky move/moveset. but at the same time look at the melee tops, a lot of hem have some crazy moves that we just accept because that is how it has always been. i think that pm has done a decent job making almost every character doable. these constant patches just make it hard for a person to develop meta game without "OMG pm backroom pls nerf ASAP"
being yelled by everyone without trying to come up with a strategy to counter.

i think what pm has done is amazing. i have my own opinions that i would like to see changed but honestly even left with this version of pm. the metagame is so young that anything could happen with any character (look what happened with lucas in the last patch)

tl dr; their will always be some sort of tier list and not everyones favorite character will be as high as they want them to be

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

i can see your point and i agree with it, but i just don't think that balancing that many characters is possible unless you just give every character a super janky move/moveset.

It's possible. Difficult to do, but possible. Look at games like Tekken, King of Fighters XIII, Dead or Alive (lol). Games with a huge cast that work pretty well.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I kinda wish we had just one deliberately underpowered joke character to fill that role. We need a Pichu or a Dan Hibiki.

Then again, I guess we do have Olimar already.

 

[Shokio]

I kinda wish we had just one deliberately underpowered joke character to fill that role. We need a Pichu or a Dan Hibiki.

Then again, I guess we do have Olimar already.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[ChiePet]

What would be really awesome is if 4.0 or Golden could be released so an actual tier list could develop; Melee's is 13 years in the making and it still has pretty drastic changes because of people adapting/evolving their gameplay (aMSa)

 

[Boardwalk]

It's possible. Difficult to do, but possible. Look at games like Tekken, King of Fighters XIII, Dead or Alive (lol). Games with a huge cast that work pretty well.

i dont play any other fighting games than melee and pm so i cant argue your point here. i think pm is already fairly well balanced and with time the non melee top tiers will develop their meta.

but i will say this about fox:
remove sh double laser
shine knocks down the entire cast (no more waveshine)
maybe add some landing lag to fire fox (not a lot but it is pretty free)

hes definately a top tier character in 3.5 but hes not OP

 

[ChiePet]

i dont play any other fighting games than melee and pm so i cant argue your point here. i think pm is already fairly well balanced and with time the non melee top tiers will develop their meta.

but i will say this about fox:
remove sh double laser
shine knocks down the entire cast (no more waveshine)
maybe add some landing lag to fire fox (not a lot but it is pretty free)

hes definately a top tier character in 3.5 but hes not OP

SH Double Lasers is fine
Shine's KD is fine (Don't hold Down.)
FireFox's current frame data is fine (Edgeguard or punish)

With the exception of the last one, The first 2 (especially waveshine) take a lot of precision and practice.

He's definitely not the Top of Top tier. Last ver. Mewtwo Pit Diddy and MK were above him.

 

[Boardwalk]

SH Double Lasers is fine
Shine's KD is fine (Don't hold Down.)
FireFox's current frame data is fine (Edgeguard or punish)

With the exception of the last one, The first 2 (especially waveshine) take a lot of precision and practice.

He's definitely not the Top of Top tier. Last ver. Mewtwo Pit Diddy and MK were above him.

waveshine and double laser are technically difficult moves.
the lasers are not OP nut they just kind of force an approach or give really free damage.
shine into wavedash upsmash. technical but not that crazy.if shine knocks everyone down it gives them a chance atleast

look at other characters with really far recoveries. falcon/shiek have some serious landing lag. when fox is off stage and above stage, fire fox has so many possible angles that if you dont guess the right one it is pretty safe. maybe that should encourage going out to intercept him. maybe just the bounce animation of firefox into the ground should be given more frames. i dont know its not something i think is unfair for fox but just an idea for some sort of nerf. i think he does need a SLIGHT nerf.

p.s. i love playing fox/falco

 

[Phaiyte]

ITT Melee kid complains about PM being a more balanced game than Melee

 

[Boardwalk]

ITT Melee kid complains about PM being a more balanced game than Melee

im not complaining about anything

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

He was talking about OP.

 

[Shokio]

Can we be blunt and brutally honest here? Shines are stupid and undoubtedly need to be reworked or preferably, removed altogether (though the latter would NEVER happen of course). They ignore an entire element of Smash: aerials being punishable on-shield. (The exceptions are STRONG aerials that have tons of shield stun and good-ranged aerials that can be safely spaced, of course).

FACT: If shines were first introduced with any Brawl character, they would've been removed already.

Falco's lasers straight-up ignore the neutral game and are essentially free pressure and free approach. But Pit's arrow get an increase on endlag as well as Mario's fireballs. (Rightfully so, I'm just saying)

I better stop before I offend and spacie mains. I swear I'm so close to making a thread about all this lol. But it just seems like nobody wants to call the Dev Team out for this blatant Melee bias that's going on. It's sickening.