[MU] Jigglypuff

[Ryu_Ken]

Anyway, I haven't heard much from the Jiggs MU. From my viewpoint, I think it's 60/40 in Link's favor. I've won against many Jiggs in online tournaments, but I've lost to a couple, mainly due to getting a bit too reckless on the last stock. If you camp Jiggs hard, there's nothing she can do against your projectiles. She's vulnerable in the air, so if you bait an air dodge or an aerial, you can punish it. Also, whiffed Rest=Automatic KO. She's extremely light, so take advantage of that. As long as u play the MU safely, Jigglypuff isn't much of a hassle at all.

I haven't studied much on Jiggs in the past, but let's kick this off with a question: Do her attacks have high priority over Link's?

 

[LEGOfan12]

I haven't studied much on Jiggs in the past, but let's kick this off with a question: Do her attacks have high priority over Link's?

Against his projectiles, I don't think so.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

She has high priority overall, but yeah, projectiles are da bomb. Pun intended.

 

[Drunken_Master]

One thing I'm noticing is that air camp is pretty good against us, and being able to attack our shield while moving behind us really lessens our ability to punish a whiff.

Only thing that seems to work is having a bomb in hand and sliding your fingers over the jump and throw buttons really quick to toss the bomb behind you.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Oh yeah, her air game is good. And I do hate how her attacks last FOREVER. At least they don't nullify Zair and bombs.

 

[DavemanCozy]

As a Peach main in Melee, my counterpick to Puff in that game was Link. I used to do the Puff vs Link matchup all the time in Melee.

As for Sm4sh, this matchup feels even better for Link and is easily in his favor. Puff might have better priority, but Link has all the spacing tools he needs to annoy her (him?) for days. Not to mention that, unlike Melee, Link's bow is another usable tool you have in this game, and his attacks come out much faster.

Outranges her + keeps Puff away. Just keep her away and don't challenge her in the air.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I'm almost tempted to think the MU is 70/30 instead of 60/40 in link's favor. Now we just need to see these matches in tournaments...

 

[Drunken_Master]

70:30 seems too optimistic to me, simply because if we're assuming the top level of play a Jiggs player can avoid punishment from us very easily. This match will slide more to the favour of Jiggs as skill level increases, imho.

For someone at my level 70:30 is about right, I think, because my opponents will make mistakes I can capitolise on, and Jiggs is very light and easy to KO. Without those mistakes, at a higher level, 60:40.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

So I went over to the Puff boards and asked if Link is a difficult MU for Jiggs. They pretty much said a big NO.
http://smashboards.com/threads/difficult-matchups-for-puff.372276/page-2#post-18063278
That surprised me. One said that they have beat 80% of Link's online and the other pretty much summarized why the MU should be difficult for Link. It's hard finding good Jigg players on Smash3ds since I'm guessing they all switched to the WiiU version.
Any1 here fight any Jiggs on WiiU/3ds? Were any of those fights really hard? Should we reevaluate the MU?
DISCUSS.

 

[Elessar]

It's important to recall that we can't take FG as an accurate representation of MU difficulty due to the army of random scrubs the populate FG. Also, as Shin (Drunken Master) says the MU changes on top levels of play. Also "should be" sounds a lot like theory crafting which doesn't really translate that well into practice.

When talking about MU ratios, it's really hard to do it without top level gameplay to analyze since word of mouth and FG (what the Jiigz boards are basing on) is really subjective. We don't know how good those Links they've beaten in offline are, or if they even are Link mains with proper knowledge of Link's new meta. In FG, I still haven't found a single oponent that I have lost to due to char limitations rather than my own mistakes. Heck, this Scrub Lord claims to have a 130 - 1 ratio in FG (note that we don't know whether that's a win-lose ratio or lose-win) and his Link is abismal by top level standards, so using FG is a really skewed way to determine real MU ratios.

Am I making sense? If I'm not, reread this post until I do.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

It's important to recall that we can't take FG as an accurate representation of MU difficulty due to the army of random scrubs the populate FG. Also, as Shin (Drunken Master) says the MU changes on top levels of play. Also "should be" sounds a lot like theory crafting which doesn't really translate that well into practice.

When talking about MU ratios, it's really hard to do it without top level gameplay to analyze since word of mouth and FG (what the Jiigz boards are basing on) is really subjective. We don't know how good those Links they've beaten in offline are, or if they even are Link mains with proper knowledge of Link's new meta. In FG, I still haven't found a single oponent that I have lost to due to char limitations rather than my own mistakes. Heck, this Scrub Lord claims to have a 130 - 1 ratio in FG (note that we don't know whether that's a win-lose ratio or lose-win) and his Link is abismal by top level standards, so using FG is a really skewed way to determine real MU ratios.

Am I making sense? If I'm not, reread this post until I do.

Ya know, not all of us are really naive. You should obviously know that, right? I say this because I haven't seen any noobs post in this thread yet.

I agree, For Glory is bad for determine ratios due to how many scrubs there are (I have yet to lose in a ditto match, sadly), but that's not saying there aren't any good players online. We gotta work with what we have, you know? There aren't a lot of Link reps in tournaments or even these LinkPuff matches offline, so we mainly turn to FG. If you happen to find a legit match where the Jigg player is actually well-above scrub level, let me know.

I believe that's a win-lose ratio, kind sir. Otherwise, we would be seeing losing matches in that post.

 

[Elessar]

Ya know, not all of us are really naive. You should obviously know that, right? I say this because I haven't seen any noobs post in this thread yet.

The fact that they have not posted doesn't mean they are not reading, specially taking into account the views vs replies count for the thread. Also, saying "not all of us" imply that some are indeed that naive, so you never know, better make sure.

I agree, For Glory is bad for determine ratios due to how many scrubs there are (I have yet to lose in a ditto match, sadly), but that's not saying there aren't any good players online. We gotta work with what we have, you know? There aren't a lot of Link reps in tournaments or even these LinkPuff matches offline, so we mainly turn to FG. If you happen to find a legit match where the Jigg player is actually well-above scrub level, let me know.

(My emphasis on the quote)

Sounds like you're trying to defend your analysis of the Jiggs/Link MU. Don't, stop. Nobody attacked it. I was simply commenting on why the difference in perception regarding the MU from both main groups. It's valid to talk about MUs, just don't take it as set in stone yet.

I believe that's a win-lose ratio, kind sir. Otherwise, we would be seeing losing matches in that post.

Do you hear that sound? That's the sonic boom from the joke flying over your head.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Isn't the internet lovely? Sarcastic comments will always fly over our heads because you can't "hear" the sarcasm (unless you make it really obvious or have it pre-established).

Anyway back on topic: still haven't encountered any Jigg players or seen any WiiU matches with her. Gonna try again today and see if I have any luck. Any1 else have better luck than me?

 

[Elessar]

Ya know, not all of us are really naive. You should obviously know that, right?

Isn't the internet lovely? Sarcastic comments will always fly over our heads because you can't "hear" the sarcasm (unless you make it really obvious or have it pre-established).

Ya know, not all of us are really naive.

*Emphasis again mine.

Why yes, the internet is lovely.

Isn't the internet lovely? Sarcastic comments will always fly over our heads because you can't "hear" the sarcasm (unless you make it really obvious or have it pre-established).

Anyway back on topic: still haven't encountered any Jigg players or seen any WiiU matches with her. Gonna try again today and see if I have any luck. Any1 else have better luck than me?

Why don't you go the Jiggz boards and ask for challangers. That way both boards will benefit from the matches regarding MU and you'll actually reduce the chances of ending up vs a baddie.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

[UNNECESSARY EMPHASIS IS UNNECESSARY]

Why don't you go the Jiggz boards and ask for challangers. That way both boards will benefit from the matches regarding MU and you'll actually reduce the chances of ending up vs a baddie.

Btw, I do love how you rip posts and put them together in such a way that would seem convoluted to the eyes of the uneducated. You already made my point so clear and big it's unnecessary (and it wasn't even the main topic). Kept these unrelated side notes to a minimum.

I actually have a challenger. It's gonna be a while before I actually fight though because I'm currently on vacation, so I'm just looking for matches to analyze in the meantime.

 

[Elessar]

Btw, I do love how you rip posts and put them together in such a way that would seem convoluted to the eyes of the uneducated. You already made my point so clear and big it's unnecessary (and it wasn't even the main topic). Kept these unrelated side notes to a minimum.

Why thank you! I do take a lot of pride and effort into my work. In fact, I pride on it so much that I'll do it again.

I actually have a challenger. It's gonna be a while before I actually fight though because I'm currently on vacation, so I'm just looking for matches to analyze in the meantime.

I simply suggsted that because you had said:

Anyway back on topic: still haven't encountered any Jigg players or seen any WiiU matches with her. Gonna try again today and see if I have any luck. Any1 else have better luck than me?

Which sounds as if you're still able to play on wifi despite being on vacations. If you are, it shouldn't be hard to arrange a match.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Actually, I don't have my 3ds with me. Taking a vacation w/o it. Should have clarified, sorry.

 

[MagmarFire]

*pokes head in* My two cents?

I've found that Jiggz (or Isaac, as I prefer to call him, for all you TPP junkies in here) is actually not that bad of a matchup for my Link. Not nearly as much as Ness, at any rate. I tend to try to keep even more space between us than I usually do to take into account the Dovahpuff's deceptively-good air approaches. My projectiles do a pretty good job of covering the extra distance, and it's not difficult to launch 'im due to his weight.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

If you don't struggle that much with Jiggs as you do with Ness, that makes me exceptional. Zair is a pretty good spacing tool against Jiggs and Uair/Dair are pretty intimidating when used properly.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Jiggly?
Diagonal-Up Boomerang ftw

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

I have about six replays from playing against an amazingly good jiggs player. I would say that the matchup is actually in favor of jiggs. Jiggs can hit your shield and wind up behind you or spaced far enough away that you cannot punish her. Grab out of shield does not exist. She does not have to approach, and if you approach she can punish almost everything. If you're offstage, it's like playing against Melee jiggs, gg. I think the matchup is 70/30 in favor of jiggs.

 

[Drunken_Master]

I have about six replays from playing against an amazingly good jiggs player. I would say that the matchup is actually in favor of jiggs. Jiggs can hit your shield and wind up behind you or spaced far enough away that you cannot punish her. Grab out of shield does not exist. She does not have to approach, and if you approach she can punish almost everything. If you're offstage, it's like playing against Melee jiggs, gg. I think the matchup is 70/30 in favor of jiggs.

One thing I'm noticing is that air camp is pretty good against us, and being able to attack our shield while moving behind us really lessens our ability to punish a whiff.

Only thing that seems to work is having a bomb in hand and sliding your fingers over the jump and throw buttons really quick to toss the bomb behind you.

We've both noticed how hard a smart Jiggles is to punish, so we agree there. I still don't feel like we're too disadvantaged, though. Why do you feel it's so one sided as 70:30 at a high level?

 

[SyncNatsyu]

I have about six replays from playing against an amazingly good jiggs player. I would say that the matchup is actually in favor of jiggs. Jiggs can hit your shield and wind up behind you or spaced far enough away that you cannot punish her. Grab out of shield does not exist. She does not have to approach, and if you approach she can punish almost everything. If you're offstage, it's like playing against Melee jiggs, gg. I think the matchup is 70/30 in favor of jiggs.

Sorry for a random comment here. I main jiggs and I know that we can't not approach unless we have the lead. Link has enough projectiles to make it so we have to move in to start anything. its similar to jiggs vs samus. This has to do with the fact jiggs has no projectiles whatsoever(unless you count sing).

I know Link will want to be close to use his sword especially with the buffs he got, but he can just cause scratch damage to us in the meantime while waiting to get a KO move in.

 

[Drunken_Master]

Sorry for a random comment here. I main jiggs and I know that we can't not approach unless we have the lead. Link has enough projectiles to make it so we have to move in to start anything. its similar to jiggs vs samus. This has to do with the fact jiggs has no projectiles whatsoever(unless you count sing).

I know Link will want to be close to use his sword especially with the buffs he got, but he can just cause scratch damage to us in the meantime while waiting to get a KO move in.

Ah, a Jiggles main. GOOD. You're a terrible person, get the **** off my board. How do you usually die to a Link? In my experience we can rack up damage on Jiggles fairly well but actually landing a kill on her is the hard part, and with her high mobility a smart player with an understanding of Link's kill moves will be hard to actually deal with, even with Jiggles' low weight.

I'd like some insight from the opposite end of this match.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

We've both noticed how hard a smart Jiggles is to punish, so we agree there. I still don't feel like we're too disadvantaged, though. Why do you feel it's so one sided as 70:30 at a high level?

Beyond being really unpunishable on shield contact, her offstage game is what really nails it imo. Very quick, successive hits, can bait a dodge with all this jumps, finish with a bair.

Sorry for a random comment here. I main jiggs and I know that we can't not approach unless we have the lead. Link has enough projectiles to make it so we have to move in to start anything. its similar to jiggs vs samus. This has to do with the fact jiggs has no projectiles whatsoever(unless you count sing).

I know Link will want to be close to use his sword especially with the buffs he got, but he can just cause scratch damage to us in the meantime while waiting to get a KO move in.

The thing is that Link's projectiles just aren't that good. Liberal use of the shield button, combined with the easy powershielding in this game, and heavy startup frames on all Link's projectiles makes him vulnerable. Approaching Link from diagonally above works pretty well with how slow utilt is and how limited the hiboxes are of usmash. Bait one out and punish, or just peck at the shield forever. You do have to move in to start anything but it doesn't seem to me, that it's too hard to get in with jigg's approach.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

Ah, a Jiggles main. GOOD. You're a terrible person, get the **** off my board. How do you usually die to a Link? In my experience we can rack up damage on Jiggles fairly well but actually landing a kill on her is the hard part, and with her high mobility a smart player with an understanding of Link's kill moves will be hard to actually deal with, even with Jiggles' low weight.

I'd like some insight from the opposite end of this match.

The thing is that Link's projectiles just aren't that good. Liberal use of the shield button, combined with the easy powershielding in this game, and heavy startup frames on all Link's projectiles makes him vulnerable. Approaching Link from diagonally above works pretty well with how slow utilt is and how limited the hiboxes are of usmash. Bait one out and punish, or just peck at the shield forever. You do have to move in to start anything but it doesn't seem to me, that it's too hard to get in with jigg's approach.

Honestly I can't say too much since Link is one of my least played MUs. I was talking in general since thats how anyone with multiple projectiles can force jiggs into a poor position. One interesting thing was I think you're Bair killing me when I was SHing in.
It isnt hard for us to approach yes but it means we're putting ourselves out in the open to be baited, our ground game is our safest options even when our aerial moves are vastly better. Also even if you're projectiles have slow start up thats still better than us with no projectiles. Even if you can't use them to the extent of samus or DHD it still is an active thing we must watch out for

Sorry I can't help much in this regard, but you should be able to get more specific info with the other jiggs.

If ya'll want I can play some of you, it'll be good practice on both sides, sometime. Not now though what with Finals soon

EDIT: oh and also Link's Dsmash is absolutely terrifying to accidentely roll into

 

[Drunken_Master]

Sorry I can't help much in this regard, but you should be able to get more specific info with the other jiggs.

If ya'll want I can play some of you, it'll be good practice on both sides, sometime. Not now though what with Finals soon

EDIT: oh and also Link's Dsmash is absolutely terrifying to accidentely roll into

A shame. Was hoping for some specific insights.

Playing against us would be good, head to the Link social thread if you wish to do so, spamming other threads will call down the FIRES OF DIN HERSELF upon you. Welcome to the Link Boards. I hope you're not too sensitive. It's always good to actually play the game we're theorycrafting about, after all. Do you have the Wii U version? Most of us work on that platform.

I'm not sure why you'd ever roll toward Link as Jiggles, though. Still, I'll try to get more reads with it against the balloon and see how it works out.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

I'm not sure why you'd ever roll toward Link as Jiggles, though. Still, I'll try to get more reads with it against the balloon and see how it works out.

Because rolling away at the wrong time means a brutal dash attack to the face.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

A shame. Was hoping for some specific insights.

Playing against us would be good, head to the Link social thread if you wish to do so, spamming other threads will call down the FIRES OF DIN HERSELF upon you. Welcome to the Link Boards. I hope you're not too sensitive. It's always good to actually play the game we're theorycrafting about, after all. Do you have the Wii U version? Most of us work on that platform.

I'm not sure why you'd ever roll toward Link as Jiggles, though. Still, I'll try to get more reads with it against the balloon and see how it works out.

I have the 3ds ver. I could've gotten the wiiu one but opted for a ps4 first.

The Dsmash thing is more of a gimmick than active threat but sometimes I chase rolls with rolls despite it being a bad idea.
And yeah, the jiggs threads is your best bet for MU info on paper anyway. I play a defensive jiggs so you may wanna fight more aggresive ones too.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Kill hits are the worst to land on jiggs and jumping in the air is like stepping into her domain. It makes her pretty tough actually. Once you do land that kill hit though it's over

That being said, stay grounded and shield everything until she's vulnerable. If she lands on the ground for a quick grab, jab the hell out of her. If she runs away, boomerang and bombs are best (arrows are close to useless with her).

I'm gonna give the MU 55/45 in Link's favor based on my experience.

 

[ZeekLTK]

I played against a few (good) Jiggs online and was surprised at how difficult they were. As the guy above me said, arrows are practically useless - they fly right over her head when she is on the ground or else she can just easily jump over them, just like she easily jumps over the boomerang. I found bombs to be the "best" projectile against her, but even then it was difficult to hit because she's usually in the air, and her abilities allow for very sporadic movement, so it is hard to predict where to throw in order to land a hit.

Ultimately, what I found to work the best was to not even use projectiles, but rather just wait patiently while she floats around in the air and then try to punish when she finally has to land. It can be very difficult to keep track of how many hops she has left, but if you can, it gives you a great opportunity to go in for a big hit like a dash attack when you know she HAS to come down. Most of my failures were getting greedy and trying to go for the kill too early. It is very easy for her to float above the range of your sword and then swoop in immediately after you swing and miss to punish, so you've just got to wait it out.

The worst is if you get caught in the air and she gets a chance to charge that spin-move on the other side of the stage, where you can't possibly get close enough to attack from the air. Link's landing lag makes us sitting ducks, as soon as we land Jiggs launches and hits us for a ton of damage, often KOs. I found one way of dealing with this was to have a bomb prepared and then when you get close enough, throw it straight down to hit yourself and launch yourself back up in the air... if you manage to do this, sometimes they will anticipate your landing and go for the kill, but then miss because you went back up in the air. I got one guy to kill himself by flying off the board after he unexpectedly missed me. lol But then he was more patient after that and made sure I actually hit the ground every other time. It's even harder because Jiggs can hold that move forever, and all they have to do is RELEASE the button, so their reaction time is just so fast... but even if they don't fall for the "bomb yourself" trick, you can potentially use that to try to get closer to them, hopefully in range to disrupt their charge with some kind of attack.

 

[JTF]

I've only played against mid-level Puffs, but I feel like Link wins pretty heavily. She can not get in if you keep up a good wall of projectiles and zair and you can kill her super early. Only downfall of the MU is that Link can not combo her as much due to her weight.