Most Efficient way to Double Jump Cancel?

[Gいたん]

I love the Mother series and technical characters so Lucas has always been my number one pick for a character when it comes to PM, and i've been wanting to get back into it but He's the only character I enjoy playing, and I have a problem with Double Jump Canceling.

I play Ness in melee so I get the idea of DJC comboing and all well, but the only problem is I DJC with Z, and am really accustomed to it and dont really know another way that gets my moves out as fast as they come out when i use Z. It's obvious you can't DJC in PM using Z with Lucas because of his tether. I tried changing the controls for X to grab and Z to attack and still wasn't able to.

What's the best way to DJC to do Neon Pressure (http://gfycat.com/ComplexUnrealisticFallowdeer) and things like Magnet> up air, etc?

I've heard from some people that you can use tap jump and C stick but that sounds uncomfortable to use while comboing. If that's however the best way i'll get on the grind and make it work, lmao

 

[Badge]

I've heard from some people that you can use tap jump and C stick but that sounds uncomfortable to use while comboing. If that's however the best way i'll get on the grind and make it work, lmao

Perfect DJCs retaining full mobility are pretty much impossible to do with any other method. You could bind a shoulder button to jump, but that's still harder.

There are 3 main reasons you want to use tap jump+C-stick:
1) Using any other jump input for the DJ, you will perform a rising aerial if you hold the button for too long. Unless you release the button within 1 or maybe 2 frames, you will land later and thus be slower.
2) You can buffer the jump input with tap jump, meaning you have 4 frames instead of 1 to do a frame perfect jump input. Anything higher will lose you time again (unless you intentionally want to perform a higher aerial to hit your opponent or something ofc).
3) Unless you use the C-stick for the attack, it's really hard do fast, retreating FAirs, which are super useful.

Using tap jump also gives you enough time to reach the C-stick for the aerial. It's theoretically possible to use other inputs, but it makes things harder without reason.

 

[20PK]

I find DJC FAirs very easy to do via tap jump and A. This is because the foward-air is activated by the stick up for tap jump already when you go to press A I think. This means you only really need 3 inputs instead of the usual 4 for tap jump DJCing. Albeit, Badge (who knows his **** better than me) did specify retreating FAirs, so I guess it's not as easy to control direction unless you're using the C-stick (leaving control stick free for movement/positioning the FAir).

 

[Gいたん]

Perfect DJCs retaining full mobility are pretty much impossible to do with any other method. You could bind a shoulder button to jump, but that's still harder.

There are 3 main reasons you want to use tap jump+C-stick:
1) Using any other jump input for the DJ, you will perform a rising aerial if you hold the button for too long. Unless you release the button within 1 or maybe 2 frames, you will land later and thus be slower.
2) You can buffer the jump input with tap jump, meaning you have 4 frames instead of 1 to do a frame perfect jump input. Anything higher will lose you time again (unless you intentionally want to perform a higher aerial to hit your opponent or something ofc).
3) Unless you use the C-stick for the attack, it's really hard do fast, retreating FAirs, which are super useful.

Using tap jump also gives you enough time to reach the C-stick for the aerial. It's theoretically possible to use other inputs, but it makes things harder without reason.

I see. I guess I'll have to get on this and realize PM has a more intricate method of DJCing with Lucas rather than z for melee.

what's the best order to do it?
tap jump, jump button c stick or jump button tap jump c stick?

 

[D e l t a]

Jump button THEN tap jump. This will allow you to cancel the second jump as Badge said in the first point, rather than a rising aerial.

As for controls, PinkFresh said he hits Y really fast, but he might be switched over to using tap jump. I believe Neon has standard controls + X for footstools and R for attack.
I personally use Y grab + Z jump. This makes DJC PKF & aerials way easier bc I can have my thumb on C stick or B button while having my pointer finger on jump. R is set to attack so I can DACUS easily.

Just grind it out, play around with controls and see what works. Y jump, Z jump, and potentially L/R jump are the most common

 

[Badge]

I see. I guess I'll have to get on this and realize PM has a more intricate method of DJCing with Lucas rather than z for melee.

The ideal methods are different, yes. In Melee you can't do maximum distance DJCs with tap jump among not having rising aerials or ZAir.

what's the best order to do it?
tap jump, jump button c stick or jump button tap jump c stick?

The latter, otherwise you won't get the benefits I mentioned. Buffering your first jump doesn't help you that much, because you will probably still do the remaining inputs with a timing as if you hadn't buffered it.

I guess, though, you could also try doing tap-jump*2->aerial or tap-Jump->C-stick in any direction but up->C-stick. I wouldn't do it myself, but if you're good at quick stick movement it could be easier without losing any benefits.

I find DJC FAirs very easy to do via tap jump and A. This is because the foward-air is activated by the stick up for tap jump already when you go to press A I think. This means you only really need 3 inputs instead of the usual 4 for tap jump DJCing.

Advancing FAirs and UpAirs are relatively easy without the C-Stick, but for retreating FAirs and DAirs you'd need faster stick movement than I'm capable of to get the same speed. If you can do it, by all means go for it.
UpAirs in particular may be easier to do without C-Stick, as it's easy without and C-Stick up is the hardest to do fast without clawing.

Edit: Oh yeah, using a different button for the first jump like Deepvoiceguy said can make things easier, too.

 

[Gいたん]

Man, doing this sounds super difficult with fast falling included in comboing and pressure. When I get it down though it'll be super worth, lol. Thanks guys.

Another question sorta unrelated to the topic, I see magnet uair start combos sometimes and it looks cool as hell but I know it only works on certain characters , what character weight/type does it work against?

 

[D e l t a]

You don't necessarily have to fast fall the PKF as you're already very close to the ground 9/10 times. I never fast fall PKF.

Mag -> Uair is useful for shield pressure and the upwards hitbox will catch most DI if you're frame tight.
For fast fallers:

• Low percent
  • Re-grab or start to a low % combo. This is great against Spacies as you can almost guarantee a grab, who are normaly hard to grab from neutral
• Mid percent
  • Begin juggles to build up damage. Potentially can get an Fsmash if they don't jump out, upsmash / Utilt if they try to jump. Another Uair / Nair could work well
• High percent
  • Can lead into kill move- mostly guaranteed Bair / Uair followup or Upsmash

On floaties / mid weights, magnet -> Uair predominately sets up for aerial juggles. Against heavies, this will lead into any combo really. Heavies include Dedede, DK, Ganon, etc

Watch any of Neon's stuff to see more.

 

[Gいたん]

You don't necessarily have to fast fall the PKF as you're already very close to the ground 9/10 times. I never fast fall PKF.

Mag -> Uair is useful for shield pressure and the upwards hitbox will catch most DI if you're frame tight.
For fast fallers:

• Low percent
  • Re-grab or start to a low % combo. This is great against Spacies as you can almost guarantee a grab, who are normaly hard to grab from neutral
• Mid percent
  • Begin juggles to build up damage. Potentially can get an Fsmash if they don't jump out, upsmash / Utilt if they try to jump. Another Uair / Nair could work well
• High percent
  • Can lead into kill move- mostly guaranteed Bair / Uair followup or Upsmash

On floaties / mid weights, magnet -> Uair predominately sets up for aerial juggles. Against heavies, this will lead into any combo really. Heavies include Dedede, DK, Ganon, etc

Watch any of Neon's stuff to see more.

Yeah DJC PKF I usually don't have a problem with because of not having to fast fall, I'm just getting intimidated by the long jump, tap up, c stick arial, tap down, l cancel inputs I'll have to get used to With the tap jump included
Amazing info, thanks a bunch!

 

[D e l t a]

The tech that's harder to do consistently is Lcancelling DJC Fair/Uairs. I sometimes opt not to if my tech isn't on point that day bc the difference in frames isn't as bad as accidentally pulling up shield and then waiting for shield to drop.

 

[GPJ4RCE]

I DJC with just the jump buttons (Y) I may be limited, but PM taught me to be specific and double tap instead of holding because I would then do rising aerial.

 

[Luk101]

I main Ness and it is mandatory to get fast djc with him because he doesn't have as good of a fast fall as Lucas does. I personally bind two jump buttons, one on z for jumping out of magnet instantly (this makes more sense for ness as he can jc his magnet normally but it still should help with lucas's jc method) and y as jump for djc. I trained my hands to get used to always pressing z for my normal jump and if I wanted to do a djc aerial then I would press Y then a and the direction I wanted. The advantage to this method is that you get the control like you would get if you were double tapping jump, but the option to have super fast djc like tap jump. It took me a while, but I can pretty pretty much do djc aerials that are as low as with tap jump. I always found tap jump -> c stick to be cumbersome so I like this method a lot better and with practice it's just as fast and you don't have to worry about not getting to the little corner of the control stick to do an instant djc fair. A lot of ness's on smash boards use this and it seems to work well for them. Hope this helps!

 

[ilysm]

I agree with Badge and Delta, but for posterity;

The good thing about tap jump is that not only does it speed up the process; it also gives you some highly beneficial directional control in the air. It can make things a bit safer on shield, shift momentum for mixups, or extend combos better. I know when I personally DJC, I have tap jump on and my input for, say, a DJC fair fading backward, facing the left side of the stage, looks like this:

-> ->
(X can be used to jump as well obviously)

For mag into DJC aerial, it took me a while to find a system that worked for me. I found that using Y or X for the second jump made me go higher than I liked, for some reason. So if I wanted to do the same DJC fair backward, but out of magnet, I'd use:

-> + -> ->

This would be my using my right thumb to tap Y for an aerial magnet, then left thumb on the control stick, right thumb to press B. Then my left thumb taps upward on the control stick, and my right thumb moves downward to quickly flick the C-stick.

It's all down to taste, really. It's like how some people prefer X to jump and some people prefer Y. Grind it out for a while and find out what lets you do it the quickest, but also the most consistently. That's probably the most important thing to work on when practicing; be consistent. You don't want to leave matches down to that chance, obviously.