More Shield Lag in Brawl w/ Easier Powershielding

[RedSoxFan3]

Personally I'd like to see some moves in Brawl have additional shieldlag mainly ground attacks, so that you can't shield grab as easily. However I'd like to see it easier to powershield, so that you have to powershield a move in order to shield grab.

Granted I don't think it should be exactly like it is in the original SSB, but at least for some ground and aerial attacks, I think powershielding should be necessary to shield grab SOME moves. This means only moves that take a substantial amount of time to come out should have this increased lag. Like Bowsers fsmash, DKs fsmash, maybe you could do it to make a crappy tilt attack better, like GaW ftilt or Zelda's ftilt, etc.

 

[Chromeless]

I have to agree here, though in most cases I think it would be better to increase the knockback of the attack against shields, as no matter how much stun you inflict on your opponent if they are still standing right next to you in the end the situation will just reset itself.

 

[Team Giza]

I support more shield stun in brawl. However I do not think its gonna happen. Actually I am more into more variety in shield stun. Faster characters should give pretty much the same in melee. But the slower characters really, really have to have there attacks give more shield stun.

Powershielding should definitely be made easier as well. It would be nice it they gave power shielding attacks a nicer effect than they did in melee. Possibly even slowing down the persons attack. However powershielding should be set up so it can be bad to powershield certain moves compared to the effectiveness of shielding those moves.

 

[red stone]

are you crazy, getting stuck in your own sheild is like the worst thing ever!!!

 

[maxpower1227]

I hate powershielding and hope it goes away. Making it easier will only further cheapen characters like Fox, Mario, Zelda, and anyone else who has a special move devoted to deflecting projectiles (and yes I know some of them have alternate uses. That's not the point)

 

[RedSoxFan3]

I think that you can also make it so that its easier to powershield when your shield is full. You could also make it so that some characters have shields that can powershield much easier than other characters.

Say you give some characters a 5 frame window with a full shield where as other characters might never get more than 3 frames of a window.

You could also make it so that some moves are difficult or immune to powershielding simply by giving the move properties that decrease the available frames to 2, 1, or even 0.

You could even make some moves worse by increasing the amount of time that you can powershield a move.

 

[Team Giza]

I hate powershielding and hope it goes away. Making it easier will only further cheapen characters like Fox, Mario, Zelda, and anyone else who has a special move devoted to deflecting projectiles (and yes I know some of them have alternate uses. That's not the point)

They can remove the projectile reflecting properties of the powershield for all I care. I mean when you powershield normal attacks.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

They can remove the projectile reflecting properties of the powershield for all I care. I mean when you powershield normal attacks.

Yeah agreed. Melee doesn't have anything along the lines of "parry" the way 3rd Strike had parry. I'd like to see Brawl incorporate this into the competitive side of the game.

 

[Exorcist]

-.-

I actually love powershielding how it is in melee. It actually adds um... skill. But w/e I know people will give me the whole "but sakurai loves easiness".

You have to understand though that sakurai does at least want some things to remain hard(that he actually put in the game) like powershielding and L'canceling, to make things better for advanced players.

Just like in SSB L'canceling took away all lag after aerials, but in melee he realized that it'd be better if it just took away half of the after'lag. He does mean for some things to be "hard". Just because the casual player cant do crazy nice moves doesn't mean they should be made easy.

And plus. If powershielding would be easy, how STUPID would Fox or anyone else with a reflecter look to have a wasted B'move because everyone could reflect better with powershielding.

And about the Shieldstun. Light attacks should be shieldgrabbable, but really powerful attacks should give shield stun.

 

[Exorcist]

They can remove the projectile reflecting properties of the powershield for all I care. I mean when you powershield normal attacks.

When you powershield normal attacks it knocks you backwards viciously in melee.

But yes, I realize they might change that. But I don't want them too because it became usefull ._.

EDIT: pardon the double post

 

[Team Giza]

Well I am talking about changing power shielding a lot. Maybe making it part of the game, making it have advantages and disadvantages.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Exactly. At this point 1 frame out of 60 is something no one can do consistantly in Melee, just because the game is very fast paced and of all the spacing involved.

Some people can reflect projectiles, but I hardly ever see anyone even bother trying to perfect shield a normal attack. You just don't see it because it isn't useful unless someone is doing a shuffle against your shield.

Anyway, I'd like to see the perfect shield have higher allowances when you have a full shield and let some characters, maybe some slower ones be able to powershield normal attacks better than other characters.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

New Idea - Perfect shielding could instead of cause a decrease in lag and a shield eventually coming out, instead you hear a cracking sound that you do in melee and you become invincible for a short amount of time experiencing no lag at all. This will allow you to counter with a follow up move such as a grab, smash attack, jab, aerial etc...

Clearly the benefit to perfect shielding is great, but in trying to do so you must predict the move. Suppose you are trying to predict a move like Shiek's ftilt. The ftilt comes out after a few frames, so you will be sitting there with your shield open open to attacks that come out quicker like a jab.

Anyway just wondering what you might think about that.

 

[Demon_machinE]

some good ideas here, but id like to say that shield grabbing in melee serves to tell you how good your spacing is. A good player will very rarely get shield grabbed because he will stay outside the range of the shieldgrab, throw out a jab after a shffled aerial with little lag, or shine with fox or falco.

If you get shield grabbed on every aerial attack you do on shields, you know you need to practice your spacing more.

In ssb the shield lag combined with 0 lag after a z cancel was just abusive to the point where if someone shielded so much as one down air from falcon, he had enough time to grab them, and then use his broken a** up air up air up air up air x 100000 then up b combos.

Or if you put up your shield vs a shorthopped kirby drill attack, there would be enough lag on your shield for him to go directly into 2 uptilts, then a forward smash, either hitting you if you stop shielding, or breaking your shield in 3 secs, setting you up for something even nastier.

I dont think that the shield lag should change from the way it was in melee, its perfect. As for powershielding? Its very hard to do, and itd be nice to see it have a few more positive benefits aside from reflecting stuff and knockback, i dont know what though, but another reward would be good insentive to master the timing of the powershield, which there is no reason to do in melee unless you play vs a lot of falcos (powershielding >>>> falco)

 

[Team Giza]

I don't think he means make all attacks give more shield stun. Just selective ones. Shield stun was pretty perfect in melee... umm... for characters like Fox, Falco and Shiek. But some of the slower characters needed to give out more shield stun. Overall, shield stun was far from perfect for most of the cast. I think that shield stun should be increased on some moves and make it so those moves push the user back more when they hit the shield to stop shield breaking abuse.

 

[Demon_machinE]

I don't think he means make all attacks give more shield stun. Just selective ones. Shield stun was pretty perfect in melee... umm... for characters like Fox, Falco and Shiek. But some of the slower characters needed to give out more shield stun. Overall, shield stun was far from perfect for most of the cast. I think that shield stun should be increased on some moves and make it so those moves push the user back more when they hit the shield to stop shield breaking abuse.

Great idea, actually! Id love to see the bigger characters have reduced lag aswell, not to make them as fast as fox (thatd be too weird) but I mean bowser is ridiculously slow, and im not talking movement, im talking lag after aerial attacks. Hes a huge target, why make him an even bigger one with all the lag?

Also, this ''no flinching'' thing to me doesnt seem like a good way to make heavy characters more viable, as it is basically just crouch cancelling but a nubbed out version of it since you don't have to actually do anything.

I swear, people who consider crouch cancelling advanced have some screws loose, you press down on the control stick for christ's sake, its like jumping in reverse.

The shield stun idea is a good idea for heavier characters, fast characters that can get around the shield grab easily (marth, fox, falcon, samus, etc) shouldnt have this advantage though, meerly characters with very little ''safe'' moves to attack on the shield without being grabbed.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Great idea, actually! Id love to see the bigger characters have reduced lag aswell, not to make them as fast as fox (thatd be too weird) but I mean bowser is ridiculously slow, and im not talking movement, im talking lag after aerial attacks. Hes a huge target, why make him an even bigger one with all the lag?

Also, this ''no flinching'' thing to me doesnt seem like a good way to make heavy characters more viable, as it is basically just crouch cancelling but a nubbed out version of it since you don't have to actually do anything.

I swear, people who consider crouch cancelling advanced have some screws loose, you press down on the control stick for christ's sake, its like jumping in reverse.

The shield stun idea is a good idea for heavier characters, fast characters that can get around the shield grab easily (marth, fox, falcon, samus, etc) shouldnt have this advantage though, meerly characters with very little ''safe'' moves to attack on the shield without being grabbed.

The problem is that in melee, you can't CC anyone who knows how to l-cancel. Take for example Fox, a speedy character who I think should be most vulnerable to CC is in fact probably the one who can avoid it the most, because of drill shines. I'd say Fox can always avoid any CC unless he's spamming dash attacks.

A character like ganondorf, doesn't really have any attack that will CC against Fox. It just won't happen. It's not that CC is bad, its that most of the time it didn't work for ****. I think 'no flinch' moves will be a benefit to brawl. And you can bet these moves will be easy to punish if you miss. Think along the lines of Roy's counter, but a little better. I personally like the idea.

 

[Imperial Wraith]

Sheild stun is fine as it is. We have to teach dash-attack spamming noobs somehow, no?

With the addition of the "no-flinch" moves being added, I think that no changes are necessary at all.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Sheild stun is fine as it is. We have to teach dash-attack spamming noobs somehow, no?

With the addition of the "no-flinch" moves being added, I think that no changes are necessary at all.

You are not getting the thread at all. Of course dash attacks should be shield grabbed. I'm talking about specific ground moves causing more shield lag so it can't be easily shield grabbed.

AND if some moves are spammed, then you should be able to powershield them with more ease than in melee allowing you to shield grab or smash attack or dtilt, etc.

This is really meant for slower characters who can't dash dance or jump around a lot to avoid attacks from speedy characters or to give slower laggy characters a basic strategy of cause some shield stun and then predict what they will do next. I don't mean to give a means to break shields, I mean to do this for moves of heavier slower characters like bowser, ganon, DK, Yoshi, and Roy.

 

[Team Giza]

Also, this ''no flinching'' thing to me doesnt seem like a good way to make heavy characters more viable, as it is basically just crouch cancelling but a nubbed out version of it since you don't have to actually do anything.

The no flinching differs from crouch canceling because it has a trade hit affect. You bust out a move and the other person tries to hit you. In melee, your move would end when that happens but in brawl your move will stay out. Difference will be very notable in free for alls and team matches and still somewhat noticeable in singles. Trust me, the no flinch stuff works, I have seen it in action in other games.

Sheild stun is fine as it is. We have to teach dash-attack spamming noobs somehow, no?

With the addition of the "no-flinch" moves being added, I think that no changes are necessary at all.

Doesn't have the same effect unless you cannot get grabbed in no flinch. And even if you can it isn't the same. Shield stun needs to change on specific moves, not on all moves. so Fox's, Shiek's, and other characters shield stun could all remain the same as in melee and then have the new powershield system even work against those attacks more. By putting in the changes that redsox mentions it would add quite a bit more depth to the game yet still remain simple at low level play.