More random fox questions

[reverie2]

1. Against falco's low nair/dair->shine onto my shield, how much of a frame leniency do i have to act? I'm thinking i almost always want to try and shine oos after the shine and not before, right? is it even possible to shine oos between falco's nair/dair and shine?

2. When you side b recover against a marth and they jab, what's the reasoning for why marth has to jab twice? Is it because it's possible to SDI the first jab and land on stage?

3. what angle is considered a max distance wavedash for fox? Is it horizontal + downwards 17.1 degrees? or will that result in an airdodge

 

[Archelon]

1. I think that they're at a frame advantage after it, since they deal roughly 15 damage and, when l-canceled only have about 8 frames landing lag (dair has a bit more). I'm pretty sure this means the shine comes out before you can do anything, but someone else would probably know for sure.
2. I think it sends you a bit further away from the stage, though I could be wrong.
3. Yeah, I think that's it. I put notches at 18 degrees on my controller 'cause I knew I would be a bit off when I put them in.
Hope I could help, sorry I couldn't provide definitive answers.

 

[Meez]

For your second question, PPMD and Zhu actually talked about it, and yeah, people can SDI the first jab and airdodge onto the stage, Mang0 does it a lot. That seems hard though.

It's probably more because you cover that in addition to pushing them further down.

 

[reverie2]

Hmm... shieldstun is
(X + 4.45)/2.235), if we assume nair does 15 damage, then that's 8.64 frames of shieldstun. Nair is 8 frames of landlag, so if i'm not missing any other variables, it is pretty much impossible for the defender to do anything.

dair is 9 frames of landlag but i'm not sure how much damage it does exactly, but it should be very close to nair frame leniency.

So i guess the safest thing to do is wait for falco's shine to roll/shine oos. but another factor is how low do falco's nair your shield, because i'm sure not all falcos are able to do it at almost the exact same time they land. So i don't know how practical it is to react to how high a falco hits your shield and if he does it too high up then safely shine oos or roll.

For your second question, PPMD and Zhu actually talked about it, and yeah, people can SDI the first jab and airdodge onto the stage, Mang0 does it a lot. That seems hard though.

Do you know if the air dodge is necessary?

 

[Meez]

Do you know if the air dodge is necessary?

I believe the air dodge is as a replacement to another side-b which could hit with another jab, since it lets you get on stage safely.

 

[Archelon]

Hmm... shieldstun is
(X + 4.45)/2.235), if we assume nair does 15 damage, then that's 8.64 frames of shieldstun. Nair is 8 frames of landlag, so if i'm not missing any other variables, it is pretty much impossible for the defender to do anything.

dair is 9 frames of landlag but i'm not sure how much damage it does exactly, but it should be very close to nair frame leniency.

So i guess the safest thing to do is wait for falco's shine to roll/shine oos. but another factor is how low do falco's nair your shield, because i'm sure not all falcos are able to do it at almost the exact same time they land. So i don't know how practical it is to react to how high a falco hits your shield and if he does it too high up then safely shine oos or roll.



Do you know if the air dodge is necessary?

I know for sure that dair is a couple frames worse on shield than nair, whether it be from damage or just the landing lag you mentioned earlier.

 

[AscendantAquila]

Marth players double jab to cover a shortened illusion. If a Falco hits your shield low with an aerial generally you have to just eat it and try to find an escape option. Once you are in this situation, spot dodge is risky, buffered roll works if they aren't done predictably, shine OOS will beat a high aerial by shining once on he lands after hitting your shield and shine OOS will beat a low aerial by being done before he hits your shield.

 

[reverie2]

Marth players double jab to cover a shortened illusion. If a Falco hits your shield low with an aerial generally you have to just eat it and try to find an escape option. Once you are in this situation, spot dodge is risky, buffered roll works if they aren't done predictably, shine OOS will beat a high aerial by shining once on he lands after hitting your shield and shine OOS will beat a low aerial by being done before he hits your shield.

How does double jab cover shorten any better than single jab though? longer range?

And those options you described would be done after the shine obviously right? because you have no leeway to act fast enough or you get shined

 

[AscendantAquila]

Double jab covers shortened illusion as well as a non-shortened illusion -> First Jab will hit the non-shortened, second jab covers shortened. Sorry I worded it poorly, I was assuming that we already knew that Jab was to cover a normal side-b, and so I was just adding that the reason Marth players double jab is for option coverage.

To answer the second question, yes.