Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
This is a topic on design, not on whether or not something is OP.
What I mean by position reliant:
-having less running space by being near a ledge preventing a follow up
-being near a platform preventing a follow up
-being near a platform allowing a tech chase follow up
-being near a ledge helping secure a tech chase
What I mean by mix ups:
-where different options by an opponent warrants different responses by the opponent, such as jab/grab mix-ups on shield
-DI mix-ups, where there are better follow up options / positional benefits if the opponent DI's wrong and there are two options for you to use on them that would require opposing DI.
I think there is a bit of an over abundance of long, true combo strings (where you use basically the same inputs and moves to follow almost regardless of DI). I don't think true combos are always terrible, but I do think they should be limited in the capacity of:
A: Not being very long strings.
B: Not working at a wide variety of percents.
I'll note that a two hit true combo that can lead to a long string that actually does have a DI tree, mix-ups, and/or is stage position reliant, is not what I'm concerned with.
My primary target on this topic is the abundance of throws, typically down throws, that lead to true combos at a wide variety of percents and that are affected minimally by DI.
I also want to re-open the discussion on how some of said throws really only have one smart DI option, which tends to make this game feel less interesting. I'm not talking about having DI guesses being required to follow up, just that not having to think/follow DI does make it feel like there is minimal interactions between players going on. This was previously brought up by @lordhelmet
The argument that ended up ending the discussion, and at which time I thought was solid, was that giving people two DI options (by making them get hit more towards 90 degrees) would be objectively better for the person throwing than making one DI option stronger (by making the angle tilt more in favor of forwards or backwards). I disagree completely on this now. Simply put, you can make is so the endlag is longer on the throw or the distance you throw is further in order to make it so that the ability to follow up is just as hard or harder in the situation with two DI options than in the situation with one DI "stronger" DI option. This allows for the defender to possibly go for platforms and/or DI off a ledge to there's less running space to limit follow-up options, which can lead to WAY more thought and interaction between opponents. Even when the options remain the same, the act itself of having to react to DI adds an element of interaction that is lost when there is only one good DI option.
I will note that this paragraph^ is mostly talking about throws that hit mostly up and/or have low endlag compared to the amount of hitstun. This isn't an issue when talking about, say, Marth f-throw, which DOES have only one good DI option, but said DI option often allows for an escape (% dependent), and there's more focus on the DI mix-up with the possibility of him doing his d-throw, which requires opposite DI to escape.
tldr: Regardless of whether or not follow-ups are guaranteed, I think there should be more player interaction during more combos.
Feel free to discus what moves/throws could use work in this department. While I do think that this is a problem with some characters in PM, I don't know how many, since I'm not familiar enough with all characters. Debating as to whether or not what I say is true is also welcome.
What I mean by position reliant:
-having less running space by being near a ledge preventing a follow up
-being near a platform preventing a follow up
-being near a platform allowing a tech chase follow up
-being near a ledge helping secure a tech chase
What I mean by mix ups:
-where different options by an opponent warrants different responses by the opponent, such as jab/grab mix-ups on shield
-DI mix-ups, where there are better follow up options / positional benefits if the opponent DI's wrong and there are two options for you to use on them that would require opposing DI.
I think there is a bit of an over abundance of long, true combo strings (where you use basically the same inputs and moves to follow almost regardless of DI). I don't think true combos are always terrible, but I do think they should be limited in the capacity of:
A: Not being very long strings.
B: Not working at a wide variety of percents.
I'll note that a two hit true combo that can lead to a long string that actually does have a DI tree, mix-ups, and/or is stage position reliant, is not what I'm concerned with.
My primary target on this topic is the abundance of throws, typically down throws, that lead to true combos at a wide variety of percents and that are affected minimally by DI.
I also want to re-open the discussion on how some of said throws really only have one smart DI option, which tends to make this game feel less interesting. I'm not talking about having DI guesses being required to follow up, just that not having to think/follow DI does make it feel like there is minimal interactions between players going on. This was previously brought up by @lordhelmet
The argument that ended up ending the discussion, and at which time I thought was solid, was that giving people two DI options (by making them get hit more towards 90 degrees) would be objectively better for the person throwing than making one DI option stronger (by making the angle tilt more in favor of forwards or backwards). I disagree completely on this now. Simply put, you can make is so the endlag is longer on the throw or the distance you throw is further in order to make it so that the ability to follow up is just as hard or harder in the situation with two DI options than in the situation with one DI "stronger" DI option. This allows for the defender to possibly go for platforms and/or DI off a ledge to there's less running space to limit follow-up options, which can lead to WAY more thought and interaction between opponents. Even when the options remain the same, the act itself of having to react to DI adds an element of interaction that is lost when there is only one good DI option.
I will note that this paragraph^ is mostly talking about throws that hit mostly up and/or have low endlag compared to the amount of hitstun. This isn't an issue when talking about, say, Marth f-throw, which DOES have only one good DI option, but said DI option often allows for an escape (% dependent), and there's more focus on the DI mix-up with the possibility of him doing his d-throw, which requires opposite DI to escape.
tldr: Regardless of whether or not follow-ups are guaranteed, I think there should be more player interaction during more combos.
Feel free to discus what moves/throws could use work in this department. While I do think that this is a problem with some characters in PM, I don't know how many, since I'm not familiar enough with all characters. Debating as to whether or not what I say is true is also welcome.
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