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Mewtwo VS Yoshi MU

HakuryuVision

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My (admittedly) saltiest MU is against Yoshi.
I thought i could beat him with a strict and patient bait & punish tactic, but i seem to fail at the "punish" aspect. Yoshi has really safe options, and overall great priotrity.
And when Yoshi pulls off said tactic himself, i'm at a loss.

How do you guys see & deal with this MU?
I might be wrong (-or simply suck), but i feel this MU is 70:30 in Yoshi's favor.
Not impossible, but a real up-hill battle.
 
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HakuryuVision

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http://smashboards.com/threads/pokemon-stadium-mewtwo-matchup-thread.398034/page-13

They already mentioned Yoshi a few times on the latest page, so you should go and ask there.
Thanks for the advice, but as long as it isn't against the rules, i'd like to have a thread more dedicated to this specific MU.

The only significant thing talked about Yoshi on the last page was that Mewtwo's Fair beats Yoshi's Fair if you time it right, but seems rather unsafe and punishable.
One page before, someone suggested using upsmash against Yoshi's Fair, but seemed to be even more unsafe & punishable.
In addition to this, you can sometimes even DI out of Mewtwo's upsmash if you don't get hit by upsmash's center. (AUGH)

On the first pages, the mention things about Yoshi i (and most people probably) already know by now:
Yoshi has great mobility, lots of safe options against Mewtwo, hard to gimp/stage spike, easily kills & juggles Mewtwo, etc.etc.

I hope we can find more ways to make this fight a little more manageable, even if it's just little things.
Better than sitting around and praying for buffs.
 

Chiroz

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My (admittedly) saltiest MU is against Yoshi.
I thought i could beat him with a strict and patient bait & punish tactic, but i seem to fail at the "punish" aspect. Yoshi's got really safe options, and overall great priotrity.
And when Yoshi pulls off said tactic himself, i'm at a loss.

How do you guys see & deal with this MU?
I might be wrong (-or simply suck), but i feel this MU is 70:30 in Yoshi's favor.
Not impossible, but a real up-hill battle.
70:30 means a hard counter, which would mean you can barely touch Yoshi. The only matchup I would say is 70:30 is Sheik and even then I've had pro players argue me about it saying that Mewtwo does have options against her.

I'll ask you one question, is there any other char that you do good against Yoshi with? Try Sheik and see if you can beat Yoshi (Yoshi has a bad matchup against Sheik). My understanding of the character Yoshi is that he is incredibly hard to deal with in general. You need to have really good reaction time and understand when you can and cannot punish.

Things like F-Air are mostly punisheable by a dashing power shield. Understand that if you don't get the dashing power shield you should probably back off. Respect Egg Throw, don't go all ham or he will combo you with it. Fear Egg Lay, don't just stand in shield, remember he can drop into it and grab you out of shield. Try to return to neutral everytime you can, Yoshi is a combo machine and it's not in your interest to allow him to get close to you. His mobility and frame data is so good that you cannot connect a string so don't go for it.

I think that Yoshi is more a matter of learning to fight the character itself and not so much that Mewtwo is bad against him. I mean, Yoshi probably has the advantage in that matchup, but it's probably 60:40 or 55:45 or closer to that. The problem is learning to punish Yoshi and learning to be patient and returning to a neutral state.

I myself am still not the best at fighting Yoshis, it is admittedly the character I hate the most fighting against with any of my characters. But I've never fought a Yoshi that I cannot at least take 1 stock off consistently. And I've fought 2 of the best Yoshis in the world (said so by Mr. R, Vinnie and Zero).

When I fight really good Sheiks or Falcons (but not even top anything in the world) I cannot take a single stock off.

There are some replays of me and Karsticles vs a Yoshi friend of his, although I will say I wasn't playing my best at the moment. I got like 10 replays of me playing Sky (one of the 2 previously mentioned Yoshis). While I only won 2 games out of like 20, I at least took a stock off every single game and I think I did decently considering I have no idea how to deal with Yoshi yet (and that he's one of, if not the best Yoshi in the US, maybe world).

I think that the more the MU is learned, the better the outcome for Mewtwo. This doesn't mean Mewtwo will end up beating Yoshi in the MU, it just means that what now seems impossible will seem actually quite doable once we learn how to deal effectively with Yoshi (and have the reaction times to do it).
 
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HakuryuVision

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Oh?
I thought 70:30 was "really difficult, but doable", sorry about that!
What would 80:20 then mean?

When i play Greninja, Bowser Jr, and Bowser, i don't have this "Wow, i can't do anything!" feeling,
even if i loose the battle.
Whenever i use Charizard, Rosalina, and Mewtwo (As Jiggly pointed out, Yoshi does good against floaty characters) i feel overwhelmed.
...though i'm starting to see what i'm doing wrong;

His mobility and frame data is so good that you cannot connect a string so don't go for it.
This is what i need to remember the most.
I always try to go for a string/combo, really need to suppress that habit...

I can deal with the eggs (-more or less), but i have a lot of problems reacting to Yoshi's aerials.
Not sure how/when to punish those, but i guess you're right about this being a matter of practice.
 

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A 70:30 or 80:20 both generally mean you more than likely aren't winning a set as the losing character in that matchup.

I don't think Mewtwo has any 70:30s though, possibly Fox but for the most part he has options vs most of the cast's shenanigans. As for Yoshi, it's really just a matter of learning what you can and can't punish as well which combos to actually go for. Yoshi also has problems landing the kill as well so Mewtwo can generally capitalize on that. Unless you run into a move or get edgeguarded Mewtwo can generally live to some pretty high percents against Yoshi.
 
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Chiroz

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Oh?
I thought 70:30 was "really difficult, but doable", sorry about that!
What would 80:20 then mean?

When i play Greninja, Bowser Jr, and Bowser, i don't have this "Wow, i can't do anything!" feeling,
even if i loose the battle.
Whenever i use Charizard, Rosalina, and Mewtwo (As Jiggly pointed out, Yoshi does good against floaty characters) i feel overwhelmed.
...though i'm starting to see what i'm doing wrong;



This is what i need to remember the most.
I always try to go for a string/combo, really need to suppress that habit...

I can deal with the eggs (-more or less), but i have a lot of problems reacting to Yoshi's aerials.
Not sure how/when to punish those, but i guess you're right about this being a matter of practice.

70:30 is basically undoable unless you outplay your opponent extremely. 80:20 is basically impossible if the other player is half decent.

I feel you on most of what you said. I also have a hard time against Yoshi but most of the time I feel it's due to me not knowing how to punish his aerials and not due to Mewtwo not being able to punish them.

I feel once I get practice against Yoshi he will get easier to deal with.
 

Metros

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Ehh... Yoshi is by far the biggest pain in the a** for Mewtwo imo.

In my state we have an extremely good Yoshi main. Barely anybody beats this guy and he's won all the recent tournaments. For Mewtwo it's basically a combination of staying the hell away from everything Yoshi does, and never going on top or behind him. It took a while but I was finally able to win with extreme patience and just playing ultra-safe. If they're a rush down it really limits their options.

Mewtwo really struggles against Yoshi but it's entirely doable.
 

HakuryuVision

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Ehh... Yoshi is by far the biggest pain in the a** for Mewtwo imo.

In my state we have an extremely good Yoshi main. Barely anybody beats this guy and he's won all the recent tournaments. For Mewtwo it's basically a combination of staying the hell away from everything Yoshi does, and never going on top or behind him. It took a while but I was finally able to win with extreme patience and just playing ultra-safe. If they're a rush down it really limits their options.

Mewtwo really struggles against Yoshi but it's entirely doable.
It certainly is the most rage-inducing one for me. XD
 

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I had to beat 2 Yoshi mains and a pocket Yoshi today in bracket for a 200 man regional.

While the matchup is certainly extremely infuriating (Yoshi is still my most hated char), it is still quite doable. I am still fairly certain it's not close to being Sheik level of difficulty. I honestly don't find the matchup that crazy hard as people are making it out to be.




I got 25th :3 (for those curious).

I honestly really feel like I could have done better. I reflected on both my losses (which were both very close sets) and I think that with some practice in specific areas I'll be ready for similar situations in the future.

I am starting to see results from my progress of my 3 week training for EVO. I am placing decently high at the tournies I am attending.
 
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Rhus

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Sounds like a pretty typical Yoshi matchup tbh.

"We have to put in a lot more effort and try way harder than Yoshi but if you are super on the ball then it's 50:50/55:45 Yoshi's favour."

Really speaks to how easy it is to play Yoshi.
 

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For whomever knows Sky Williams (or whomever wants to laugh a bit):

https://www.facebook.com/greg.s.williams1/videos/10207037306712283/?pnref=story



That's me. I have about 10 replays against Sky, we played a lot of games I will upload them when I can and share them here. Sky is considered to be top 2-3 Yoshi in the world (he considers himself to be the best right now) and he was definitely the highest placing Yoshi at EVO.

He won more than 90% of the games, but he is a much better player than I am. But even playing with who could be the best Yoshi in the world, the matchup never felt like it was in any way "too hard to handle".
 
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Metros

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Here is one of my wifi matches vs Nikes. He's currently the best Yoshi player in our state (and most likely Australia at the rate things are going with his tournament wins), and it's extremely hard to beat his Yoshi so this was quite a challenge for me since the match is entirely in his favour. Feel free to critique :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgLY-4TYFPU

And if this is in the wrong thread, then I'm sorry, but it's a thread about the M2/Yoshi MU so why not.
 

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Here is one of my wifi matches vs Nikes. He's currently the best Yoshi player in our state (and most likely Australia at the rate things are going with his tournament wins), and it's extremely hard to beat his Yoshi so this was quite a challenge for me since the match is entirely in his favour. Feel free to critique :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgLY-4TYFPU

And if this is in the wrong thread, then I'm sorry, but it's a thread about the M2/Yoshi MU so why not.

I'd say, first and foremost don't spam Disable so much. Specially when the opponent is so low %, you don't gain anything from it but 1% damage. I only use Disable after my opponent is kill % (I know you got the Disable at the end and that was great, but you also missed one and he could have U-Smashed or something).

Second at the beginning of the match I saw you kept "drifting" towards him. Mewtwo is not a very good aerial fighter, he has good max speed but bad acceleration, all his aerials are relatively slow too. Yoshi on the other hand is extremely good at the air. He has the second fastest aerial speed and I think 3rd fastest aerial acceleration. He has aerials for everything, a frame 3 to get out of combos, an invincible lingering hitbox, an aerial with more range than Ike's sword and a juggle aerial which true combos into everything and is also a kill move (and also B-Air, but that's not so note-worthy).

Do NOT challenge Yoshi in the air for more than 1 hit. What I mean is, you can space F-Airs/B-Airs or try to mix in an N-Air but after that back off. Don't keep chasing Yoshi or try to "drift" into him, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. In the air, just space those 1 hits and refresh to neutral (unless it's some true combo).



I will say though, I don't want to say bad things about your friend/player, but that Yoshi doesn't use Yoshi's best move which is his Egg Throw. Egg Throw is so ridiculously overpowered that I find it extremely weird that he barely used it for anything that wasn't 3rd jumping.



Anyways I learned something from this video, I didn't know you could use Confusion to get on the stage from the ledge. I don't know how useful it is though because I imagine it leaves you in a LOT of endlag, but Mewtwo's regular getup lags so much that it might be worth looking into.
 
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Metros

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I'd say, first and foremost don't spam Disable so much. Specially when the opponent is so low %, you don't gain anything from it but 1% damage. I only use Disable after my opponent is kill % (I know you got the Disable at the end and that was great, but you also missed one and he could have U-Smashed or something).

Second at the beginning of the match I saw you kept "drifting" towards him. Mewtwo is not a very good aerial fighter, he has good max speed but bad acceleration, all his aerials are relatively slow too. Yoshi on the other hand is extremely good at the air. He has the second fastest aerial speed and I think 3rd fastest aerial acceleration. He has aerials for everything, a frame 3 to get out of combos, a invincible lingering hitbox, an aerial with more range than Ike's sword and a juggle aerial which true combos into everything and is also a kill move (and also B-Air, but that's not so note-worthy).

Do NOT challenge Yoshi in the air for more than 1 hit. What I mean is, you can space F-Airs or try to mix in an N-Air but after that back off. Don't keep chasing Yoshi or try to "drift" into him, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. In the air, just space those 1 hits and refresh to neutral (unless it's some true combo).



I will say though, I don't want to say bad things about your friend/player, but that Yoshi doesn't use Yoshi's best move which is his egg throw. Egg Throw is so ridiculously overpowered that I find it extremely weird that he barely used it for anything that wasn't 3rd jumping.



Anyways I learned something from this video, I didn't know you could use Confusion to get on the stage from the ledge. I don't know how useful it is though because I imagine it leaves you in a LOT of endlag, but Mewtwo's regular getup lags so much that it might be worth looking into.
Ok, thanks for your advice. I seriously need it as I don't have very much experience with the Yoshi MU so this thread will really help out.

I can tell my friend wasn't playing like he normally does there, maybe that was due to wifi though. He normally uses egg throw quite a bit.
 

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Ok, thanks for your advice. I seriously need it as I don't have very much experience with the Yoshi MU so this thread will really help out.

I can tell my friend wasn't playing like he normally does there, maybe that was due to wifi though. He normally uses egg throw quite a bit.
I am about to upload all the video of me vs Sky. It's going to be a lot of videos of me being wrecked. You guys can also give me advice on what to do/not to do :). I think I saved one of the replays that I beat him (I only beat him twice), we'll see once I upload them.
 

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I am about to upload all the video of me vs Sky. It's going to be a lot of videos of me being wrecked. You guys can also give me advice on what to do/not to do :). I think I saved one of the replays that I beat him (I only beat him twice), we'll see once I upload them.
I know all about being wrecked, but persistence and dedication with Mewtwo can truly pay off!

What sort of practice/training did you do while training for EVO, if you don't mind me asking? I'll also be sure to check out your matches once you upload them. I might learn a few things as well. :)
 

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I know all about being wrecked, but persistence and dedication with Mewtwo can truly pay off!

What sort of practice/training did you do while training for EVO, if you don't mind me asking? I'll also be sure to check out your matches once you upload them. I might learn a few things as well. :)
I noticed while watching one of my matches that I also spammed Disable a bit hahaha, don't want to seem like a hypocrite when you see it xD. But in that situation I was at 0% and he was at 110%, I think my train of thought was that getting punished only meant a Dash Attack, while if I landed it I got a kill, IDK.



Most of my training was playing a lot of pros, a lot of them. I always asked what I did wrong and how they think I could improve on that, although I will admit that 3/4 of the time the answer would be really generic or vague, but that 1/4th of the time really helped me understand certain things about my playstyle.

Apart from that I sat every day in training mode and tried to change my way of thinking about every single thing about Mewtwo. Like I would go into training and figure out exactly how I should be thinking of D-Tilt, not just throwing it out there over and over, but what exactly should my train of thought be when I am using it and what I should be looking for when doing it.

It's helped me a lot to stop spamming my "generally good moves" and actually understand what they beat from the opponent's specific character. This I think is the most important part of my "training". Because when I fight an opponent now I can learn what I should do mid match, instead of having to analyze everything afterwards (although I still do that most of the time). I feel more confident that I can find a solution in game to whatever is currently destroying me.
 
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HakuryuVision

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I wish i had any pros to spar with here around where i live. : /
We do have some tourneys here in Germany, but most of them are online (which i generally avoid due to lag/micro-lag messing up my perfect shielding and reaction in general) and offline tourney are held in other regions, and i don't have the time & money to travel there.

...maybe i can bring one of my friends to start maining Yoshi and gradually get good in this MU with him... >3>

Here is one of my wifi matches vs Nikes. He's currently the best Yoshi player in our state (and most likely Australia at the rate things are going with his tournament wins), and it's extremely hard to beat his Yoshi so this was quite a challenge for me since the match is entirely in his favour. Feel free to critique :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgLY-4TYFPU

And if this is in the wrong thread, then I'm sorry, but it's a thread about the M2/Yoshi MU so why not.
This is the PERFECT place to post videos like this! ; )
Wow, this got really thrilling to watch!
You succeeded to land confusion so many times, i wish Mewtwo could actually do more out of it. Like a string, or a combo. : (

And yeah, as Raykz pointed out before, it's strange that Yoshi isn't using the eggs.
 

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The Yoshi wasn't using many eggs since he was getting punished hard for it with FCSB. There were many matches prior to that where he took a lot of damage from it. Egg toss has so much commitment that if you predict it he gets punished hard, and often.
 

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The Yoshi wasn't using many eggs since he was getting punished hard for it with FCSB. There were many matches prior to that where he took a lot of damage from it. Egg toss has so much commitment that if you predict it he gets punished hard, and often.
What does FCSB stand for?
 

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The Yoshi wasn't using many eggs since he was getting punished hard for it with FCSB. There were many matches prior to that where he took a lot of damage from it. Egg toss has so much commitment that if you predict it he gets punished hard, and often.
Egg Toss doesn't have that much commitment. Baby Shadow Ball has much more commitment than Egg Throw does. If he has already thrown it then he's already safe. As you said you would need to predict the Throw.

Also there are plenty, plenty of ways to throw an 100% safe Egg.

Also how do you know this and Metros doesn't? He was the one playing.
 

HakuryuVision

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Full Charge Shadow Ball
Raykz pretty much covered everything i wanted to say, Yoshi's egg throw is pretty safe if done right. :(
If that particular Yoshi got punished with FCSB before, he must have overused it in a very predictable way.

On a side-note: I wish reflecting eggs would kind of help us more in vs Yoshi matches.

(And woops, i feel stupid for not knowing what FCSB meant)
 
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Browny

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Egg Toss doesn't have that much commitment. Baby Shadow Ball has much more commitment than Egg Throw does. If he has already thrown it then he's already safe. As you said you would need to predict the Throw.

Also there are plenty, plenty of ways to throw an 100% safe Egg.

Also how do you know this and Metros doesn't? He was the one playing.
She* and because I was right next to her lol

On wifi at least, FCAS becomes more of a threat. I think in one match (3 stock) 158% damage was done by SB alone by punishing his over-commitments. Its one of those things which builds up frustration very, very quickly to opponents and makes them change their playstyle, and that's when you win :)
 

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g/videos



This is my youtube channel, the videos of me vs Sky are now all there.
I'm going to say the same thing I do to everyone; Use shadowball smarter.

I felt overall your gameplay was fine but your shadowball use lacked any purpose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HouHx2XV8OA
This match particularly shows what I am talking about. Every time you used shadowball, it had no purpose and wasn't even close to hitting. It wasn't used to stuff an approach, punish, threaten or anything. At no time was yoshi afraid of going crazy on the offensive to you because there was nothing to be afraid of.

It felt like you treated shadowball as a toon link boomerang, just throwing it out there in case it hits. With stronger shadowballs in hand, yoshi wont have that freedom to just throw out hitboxes all day.
 

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I'm going to say the same thing I do to everyone; Use shadowball smarter.

I felt overall your gameplay was fine but your shadowball use lacked any purpose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HouHx2XV8OA
This match particularly shows what I am talking about. Every time you used shadowball, it had no purpose and wasn't even close to hitting. It wasn't used to stuff an approach, punish, threaten or anything. At no time was yoshi afraid of going crazy on the offensive to you because there was nothing to be afraid of.

It felt like you treated shadowball as a toon link boomerang, just throwing it out there in case it hits. With stronger shadowballs in hand, yoshi wont have that freedom to just throw out hitboxes all day.



Shadow Balls are a main zoning technique. Part of zoning means covering a specific area of the map. They might seem random to you, but when I throw them I am limiting his movement. He jumps, I throw one out and now he can't fast fall or retreat in the air (or he'll land on the Shadow Ball). It's a way to limit his options.

And yes that's also how Toon Link uses his boomerang. They use it to limit the opponents options. It's not just throwing it out there.



I honestly don't charge Shadow Ball as much as I should I will admit. I probably should start charging it more, as you said, it creates a lot of pressure on the opponent since I got a really heavy punish ready. But my use of Baby Shadow Balls isn't at all random or not smart.
 
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Browny

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I know what zoning is, but that's not what shadowball is good for. I could zone with marths bair if I wanted, doesn't mean I should. Yoshi is far, far too quick in the air to be threatened by such slow moving, weak projectiles.

IMO Shadowball is best served as a threatening move which forces the opponent to change the way they play. It is similar to Nana being alive with the ICs, KO punch, Waft, Villagers tree and a high % Lucario in general. When all of these moves are on deck, it forces the opponent to play differently. Previously safe approaches are now completely unsafe, merely using a projectile will result in heavy damage and using your double jump before landing on stage will cost you your stock. You have now changed the opponents optimal playstyle and thats where mistakes set in on their end, when their safe, spammable hitboxes are now a death sentence for them.

You need to think of it that way, you can have one but not the other. You are trading a really weak, slow zoning tool (2.5% uncharged wtf) in favour of having a highly threatening approach stuffer. Of course the charge time is large and you might not get many chances, but its worth going for.

I'm not sure if you ever read this
http://smashboards.com/threads/shad...fectively-to-infuriate-your-opponents.399256/

One day I will finish my in-deapth shadowball guide. Its been consistently delayed by freakin updates ruining all my replays and then my saved videos to my PC decided to corrupt themselves so I'm really annoyed at losing all that footage but I have like a 15 minute script ready I just need the footage again, im hoping the next patch introduces that replay save feature that will keep them usable still.
 
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Browny

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You know what I'm going to add to this and I dont care if its a double post because it needs to be re-iterated. Raykz this isn't an attack on you, this is just how I see it in general when I watch many Mewtwo players opt for baby shadowball.

When you play Sheik, do you only ever fire single needles or do you go for the full stack?
When you play WFT, do you charge Sun Salutation all the way or shoot the tiny ones?
When you play Rob do you fire the uncharged gyro or do you wind it up?
When you play Wario do you use the waft at 30 seconds charged, or 90 seconds?

Choosing to use baby shadow balls is choosing to nerf your own character. You have the option of a weak move, or a strong move. This isn't the same as choosing to tilt instead of smash because the tilt is faster/safer since the higher charge SB is actually faster and safer!

If you watched someone play as any of those characters who consistently refused to charge their attacks you would note that its not a good strategy since the attack becomes far, far better when charged. Its safer, more damaging, more threatening and faster. Outside of a desperation 'get away from me' baby shadow ball to stop a dashing approach, baby shadow ball is an inferior option. Yes it can stuff approaches but why would you choose to stuff an approach with a slow 2% projectile when you can stuff it with a 10% or even 26% much faster projectile.

Treat it like Warios waft or Robs laser. Every single moment of gameplay where the enemy is not in your face, use this time to charge shadowball so the next time you throw one out to 'zone' the enemy, you are doing it with a much stronger attack.

Now directly @ you Raykz, I strongly feel that in your matches vs Sky your use of shadowball had gigantic room for improvement. I'm not telling you to justify your use of baby shadow balls or explain what zoning is to others, I'm saying that you should focus a lot on that. Take every opportunity you can to charge bigger shadowballs and make Sky SCARED. You have the strongest projectile in the game. By not using it, that's just as bad as Sky not using Yoshis aerials because he wants to zone with dtilt instead. That is literally how I see it, nerfing your own character.

I want to see Mewtwo mains do better and I bet my entire credibility on this forum with every theorycraft post I make. I don't write long posts like this, or that essay above, or make 15 minutes videos, because I'm some mad kid who cant beat a friends Samus spamming charge shot. I write this because I see a fundamentally good player with a big void in their gameplay who can work to fix it.

Of course, you have absolutely no reason to listen to what I am saying or change what you're doing, but I am very, very certain that with smarter shadowball use, your matches vs Sky are going to be very different. Just try it, whats the worst that could happen. I have no trouble admitting when I'm wrong and I don't spend hours labbing this stuff to make an idiot of myself on a forum.
 
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HakuryuVision

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You know what I'm going to add to this and I dont care if its a double post because it needs to be re-iterated. Raykz this isn't an attack on you, this is just how I see it in general when I watch many Mewtwo players opt for baby shadowball.

When you play Sheik, do you only ever fire single needles or do you go for the full stack?
When you play WFT, do you charge Sun Salutation all the way or shoot the tiny ones?
When you play Rob do you fire the uncharged gyro or do you wind it up?
When you play Wario do you use the waft at 30 seconds charged, or 90 seconds?

Choosing to use baby shadow balls is choosing to nerf your own character. You have the option of a weak move, or a strong move. This isn't the same as choosing to tilt instead of smash because the tilt is faster/safer since the higher charge SB is actually faster and safer!

If you watched someone play as any of those characters who consistently refused to charge their attacks you would note that its not a good strategy since the attack becomes far, far better when charged. Its safer, more damaging, more threatening and faster. Outside of a desperation 'get away from me' baby shadow ball to stop a dashing approach, baby shadow ball is an inferior option. Yes it can stuff approaches but why would you choose to stuff an approach with a slow 2% projectile when you can stuff it with a 10% or even 26% much faster projectile.

Treat it like Warios waft or Robs laser. Every single moment of gameplay where the enemy is not in your face, use this time to charge shadowball so the next time you throw one out to 'zone' the enemy, you are doing it with a much stronger attack.

Now directly @ you Raykz, I strongly feel that in your matches vs Sky your use of shadowball had gigantic room for improvement. I'm not telling you to justify your use of baby shadow balls or explain what zoning is to others, I'm saying that you should focus a lot on that. Take every opportunity you can to charge bigger shadowballs and make Sky SCARED. You have the strongest projectile in the game. By not using it, that's just as bad as Sky not using Yoshis aerials because he wants to zone with dtilt instead. That is literally how I see it, nerfing your own character.

I want to see Mewtwo mains do better and I bet my entire credibility on this forum with every theorycraft post I make. I don't write long posts like this, or that essay above, or make 15 minutes videos, because I'm some mad kid who cant beat a friends Samus spamming charge shot. I write this because I see a fundamentally good player with a big void in their gameplay who can work to fix it.

Of course, you have absolutely no reason to listen to what I am saying or change what you're doing, but I am very, very certain that with smarter shadowball use, your matches vs Sky are going to be very different. Just try it, whats the worst that could happen. I have no trouble admitting when I'm wrong and I don't spend hours labbing this stuff to make an idiot of myself on a forum.
I've been doing quite better in this MU following this advice.
FCSB help me a lot punishing/hitting Yoshi commited to certain approaches.
...though they kind of catch up on this and become more agressive.
 

Browny

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I've been doing quite better in this MU following this advice.
FCSB help me a lot punishing/hitting Yoshi commited to certain approaches.
...though they kind of catch up on this and become more agressive.
See this is the goal, you punish certain approaches. Eventually the opponent, when seeing you have a FCSB ready, will know better than to do the same punishable approach, so they do something else.

You have reduced their options, now they are more predictable. You don't even need to fire the shadowball to reduce their options, you're in their head now.

If it makes them more aggressive that's better, they're more likely to be punishable and get frustrated at the game. When you pull them out of their comfort zone and they cant rely on spacing 'safe' attacks they will revert to unsafe options.
 

RayNoire

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I'm a fan of uncharged/semi-charged SBs. They're a bit like Luigi's fireballs (it's too bad our dash grab is so awful). Mewtwo needs as many low-commitment options as possible, and charged SB is more of a commitment (even if they don't punish you forfeit stage control).

To charge or not to charge is MU dependent and opponent dependent. You almost never want to charge against Villager because the risk is too high, and uncharged SBs are generally more useful against defensive playstyles to force approaches or help you approach, whereas aggressive players will powershield/shorthop and be hardly slowed down at all.

Against Yoshi I'd probably throw uncharged because I think we have to approach anyway (stupid eggs).
 

Chiroz

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I'm a fan of uncharged/semi-charged SBs. They're a bit like Luigi's fireballs (it's too bad our dash grab is so awful). Mewtwo needs as many low-commitment options as possible, and charged SB is more of a commitment (even if they don't punish you forfeit stage control).

To charge or not to charge is MU dependent and opponent dependent. You almost never want to charge against Villager because the risk is too high, and uncharged SBs are generally more useful against defensive playstyles to force approaches or help you approach, whereas aggressive players will powershield/shorthop and be hardly slowed down at all.

Against Yoshi I'd probably throw uncharged because I think we have to approach anyway (stupid eggs).

I agree with most of this. Uncharged SBs are awesome for limiting offensive playstyles although you can't just spam them as you might get punished easily.

Charging is more of a punish tool than a limiting tool, although as Browny said having a fully charged SB does get into your opponents mind and make them play differently, normally safer, but worse.

I normally charge SB if I notice my opponent plays too defensively, otherwise I use SB as a tool to limit options. Obviously specific MU stuff such as Villager or Ness is important to keep in mind (although you can still charge against them).
 
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ShadowKing

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From experience mewtwo does decent against yoshi if played correctly meaning he's fair and bair can be used as a sort of counter
 

Browny

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I'm a fan of uncharged/semi-charged SBs. They're a bit like Luigi's fireballs (it's too bad our dash grab is so awful). Mewtwo needs as many low-commitment options as possible, and charged SB is more of a commitment (even if they don't punish you forfeit stage control).

To charge or not to charge is MU dependent and opponent dependent. You almost never want to charge against Villager because the risk is too high, and uncharged SBs are generally more useful against defensive playstyles to force approaches or help you approach, whereas aggressive players will powershield/shorthop and be hardly slowed down at all.

Against Yoshi I'd probably throw uncharged because I think we have to approach anyway (stupid eggs).
I'll just say this.

Watch any video of a good Wii Fit Trainer vs a good yoshi, or vs a good anyone.

They ALWAYS use charged sun salutations, not uncharged ones.

Why is it good for WFT, but not good for Mewtwo? Why dont they constantly use uncharged ones instead if according to you, its better?
 

Chiroz

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I'll just say this.

Watch any video of a good Wii Fit Trainer vs a good yoshi, or vs a good anyone.

They ALWAYS use charged sun salutations, not uncharged ones.

Why is it good for WFT, but not good for Mewtwo? Why dont they constantly use uncharged ones instead if according to you, its better?

Why doesn't Falco dash towards you while throwing lasers like Luigi? Why don't all Bowser Jrs just approach using Short Hop Down-B while falling into you with an N-Air like Mario?

If you can answer those 2 you can probably answer Mewtwo vs WFT.


Apart from the above reason, WFT is also a much campier char and has a much easier time charging SS. She can double jump out of stage and air stall with Down-B cancelling while throwing down Soccer Balls. Then she can mix it up with a Double Jump charge.

Even then I do see WFTs throw uncharged Sun Salutations when it's good for them.



No one is saying not to charge Shadow Ball, I think every one agrees that charging Shadow Ball is a good idea when the other player is just camping you out of has a very predictable playstyle (or you have downtime because you threw him offtstage or killed him).

We are all just agreeing that good use of Baby Shadow Balls is also a great tool in Mewtwo's moveset and that it's normally more helpful to beat certain matchups (like Falcon) than it is to charge 1/10th of the Shadow Ball every 10 seconds because the opponent is on your face constantly.

Would you rather have Luigi's Fireball or Sun Salutation vs a Falcon? Would you rather have Samus Charge Shot or Sheik's Needles vs a Fox? Granted BSB isn't as good as Needles and FCSB is better than Charge Shot, so it isn't a fair comparison, but I think it gets the point across.
 
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Browny

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I wasn't talking about Mewtwo vs Wii Fit, im talking in general where you will have 2 options

1) Have a powerful projectile ready
2) Have a weak projectile ready.

And yes I know WFT's love to stall off stage to charge up, Mewtwo can get a full charge SB from nothing offstage where most characters cant touch him.

http://gfycat.com/MediocreEdibleJoey

This is an example of something I'd like to see more Mewtwo mains do. With how floaty and slow he is, if I recovered normally I wouldnt have stopped WFT charging up the SS. So I had the option to either recover doing nothing, or recover with a KO projectile in hand. Why would I take the nothing option?
 

Chiroz

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I wasn't talking about Mewtwo vs Wii Fit, im talking in general where you will have 2 options

1) Have a powerful projectile ready
2) Have a weak projectile ready.

And yes I know WFT's love to stall off stage to charge up, Mewtwo can get a full charge SB from nothing offstage where most characters cant touch him.

http://gfycat.com/MediocreEdibleJoey

This is an example of something I'd like to see more Mewtwo mains do. With how floaty and slow he is, if I recovered normally I wouldnt have stopped WFT charging up the SS. So I had the option to either recover doing nothing, or recover with a KO projectile in hand. Why would I take the nothing option?

You didn't answer any of my previous questions.



Also to answer your question:

Because sometimes you're actually fighting opponents who are decent at edge guarding and making your recovery much more linear sometimes means death. No matter how much you charge a Shadow Ball, dying takes the charge away. You assume people don't charge Shadow Ball when they do have the option to.
 
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